Against Caffeine

[Sir-Sister-of-Suck]

Furthermore, it's not merely happenstance coffee is the number one beverage, drug, and number two commodity in the world, it's an integral part of the capitalist, consumerist system, which's on its way out, one way, or another.

Capitalism is on its way out?

[Sir-Sister-of-Suck]

Natural drugs like marijuana tend to be healthier than unnatural ones, but it's even healthier to improve things by making changes to your diet, exercise and lifestyle, which's even more natural.

...which again are not mutually exclusive. You can be a superfit, healthy individual who also happens to smoke some pot and drink coffee on the side. Joe Rogan says he actually becomes more motivated to work out after taking marijuana. There are many people who think the same with caffeine.

[Gloominary]

@Suck

Why'd you give coffee up if it's such a great drug?

I've been on extremely high doses of caffeine and driven, as have many I know. In fact for some, it's a bit of a ritual to do before getting to work in the morning. If anything, caffeine makes most people more alert and better at driving. I'm pretty sure all the studies that have been done on the effects of caffeine would agree with my assessment. In fact, something I found relevant to the discussion. Maybe we should in fact, force people to consume caffeine before driving?

You're starting to sound like a drunk now.
You'll often hear alcoholics say: 'I've been drunk on the road lots of times, and my driving skills were unaffected, they might've even improved'.
While being drunk or wired doesn't guarantee you'll cause an accident, it does increase your chances.
If your tolerance is very high, because you're used to taking higher doses, you might need to consume significantly more than the average person would to be severely impaired.
Some people are more sensitive to the drug than others, or have better psycho-physiological coping mechanisms.
My friend almost killed me a few times while he was on high doses of coffee (about 3 extra large cups with lots of cream and sugar), I don't get into a car with him at the wheel anymore.

In small doses caffeine could help you drive, in small doses alcohol or marijuana could help you drive, if you're overly anxious or afraid, they might calm you down a little.
From my research, coffee doesn't improve people's reaction time or hand eye coordination, if anything it impairs it, especially in large doses, but it could help wake you up if it's early in the morning, or help keep you from falling asleep if it's late at night.
It could also make you more drowsy if you're withdrawing from it, or if you're staying up a lot later, sleeping more shallowly, and getting up earlier than you otherwise would without it.
In large doses however, there's no way it improves driving performance, if anything it severely compromises it, while some individuals may susceptible to its deleterious effects than others (again genetics, low tolerance...).

Here's a, very brief, list of things coffee typically does to people at medium-high doses or in sensitive persons:

Increases anxiety and nervousness at high doses or in sensitive individuals [Lieberman 1992, Loke 1988]
Insomnia, decreased ability to sleep [Smith 2002]
Caffeine withdrawal can worsen mood [Schuh 1997]
Caffeine withdrawal causes headaches, flu-like symptoms, feelings of lethargy and reduces motivation [Schuh 1997]
Increases jaw tension and bruxism [Erowid Self Reports 2000, Ohayon 2001]

https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/caffei ... ects.shtml

To this list I'll add irritability, potentially leading to road road rage at higher doses.
But even this list downplays its adverse effects, because just one cup of coffee makes you a little more anxious and nervous, where as 10-15 cups will make you a lot more.
Does that sound like the sort of person you want behind the wheel?
A very anxious, irritable and nervous person is going to overestimate and overreact to situations and stimuli, not estimate and react proportionately, that's what sober people do.

Caffeine is just not generally intoxicating enough to warrant such a law. How about, if someone is pulled over and they're on a drug responsible for the reason of them being pulled over? There are a thousand drugs we could add a limit to before caffeine, but this method seems to work just find.

The reason why coffee warrants a specific limit, is because so many people consume it, 90% of people are caffeine addicts, and many more use it on occasion, that and society is underestimating the dangers, there needs to be more consciousness raised about it.

Yeah I don't believe you've actually taken meth, if you act like this much of an autistic spass when it comes to this total non-issue of caffeine intake. The only similarity that meth has with caffeine is that they're both stimulants. As I explained, even the worst caffeine withdrawals are not all that bad, speaking from experience, and If they ever are, it's an extremely easy substance to taper off of. It was a thousand times more brutal when I quite smoking. What's a joke, is even comparing the two.

Well you're dead wrong, I experimented with quite a few street drugs when I was young, from LSD and shrooms to meth, PCP and XTC.
Of all the street drugs I took, I found meth to be the most similar to high doses of caffeine, and I've talked to people online who've corroborated this.

I think you're wasting your energy on the wrong parts of 'mainstream science', maybe for the sake of trying to be different, because it doesn't even seem like you're that well informed on why caffeine is so bad for you. I would be more skeptical of these so-called 'alternative supplements' you speak of, a field of medicine ripe with pseudoscience, when there isn't just a complete lack of understanding around it.

Or maybe your love for coffee has blinded you to its adverse effects.

Mainstream science doesn't mean it's not pseudoscience, it just means it's mainstream.
Scientists have been caught by others and themselves exaggerating claims and telling outright lies about everything from sugar to tobacco many, many times.
Follow the money.
Today's alt and fringe can easily become tomorrows mainstream, and vice versa.
Anyone interested in reading some literature on the subject, will want to check out the book the Caffeine Blues, which was written by a biochemist, doctor and former caffeine addict.

[Gloominary]

Furthermore, it's not merely happenstance coffee is the number one beverage, drug, and number two commodity in the world, it's an integral part of the capitalist, consumerist system, which's on its way out, one way, or another.

Capitalism is on its way out?

Yea didn't you hear?
Endless growth on a finite plant is impossible.

[Gloominary]

Natural drugs like marijuana tend to be healthier than unnatural ones, but it's even healthier to improve things by making changes to your diet, exercise and lifestyle, which's even more natural.

...which again are not mutually exclusive. You can be a superfit, healthy individual who also happens to smoke some pot and drink coffee on the side. Joe Rogan says he actually becomes more motivated to work out after taking marijuana. There are many people who think the same with caffeine.

Yea if you smoke a, little pot and drink a, little coffee on the side you can still be healthy, and if you don't smoke or drink any you can be even healthier.
I can see coffee making you more motivated to work out, but marijuana?
He must be unusual that way.
Perhaps a little can numb the pain of a workout, but a lot can more easily rob one of their motivation.
If people had more time to relax and eat healthier, they wouldn't need coffee to feel like working out in the first place, they'd naturally feel that way.
The reason why we often have so little time is cause coffee, among other things, keeps people running this capitalist, consumerist rat race, all the way to hell.

[Gloominary]

I'd really like to live in an ideal society and I don't think coffee, in or out, would help.

Coffee is overrated, I'd rather see more people do just about any drug, even alcohol than coffee.
If we're going to do drugs we should be smoking marijuana and taking LSD and shrooms, we'd probably have a more laid back, mellow, enlightened society.
Coffee turns people into lemmings, obedient workers.
If some other drugs expand consciousness, coffee narrows it.

[Gloominary]

To slightly paraphrase Nietzsche, life without coffee ain't worth living. If it's the Devil's drink, why did god create coffee beans?

Why to test our mettle of course.
Whatever's good is good, whatever's bad, but appears good, is a test.
God likes playing games, games are fun.
That's why just about every polytheistic culture had a Loki, Pan or prankster deity of sorts.
God pretending he's not a game player, as he does in Abrahamic cultures, is also part of the game.
Really it wouldn't be a game if you knew for sure you were being had.

Would that also include god being had once in a while by the poor miserable scum he created or is the game completely rigged?

If you want to get back at God, stop playing the game, exit the game, make your own game or at least play the game your way, more on your terms.

[PauloL]

OK Gloom. That's your opinion. IMO that's quite solipsistic and no scientific data supports that.

As we see our opinions differ by and large.

I thank Pope Clement VIII to allow Satan's beverage. I drink it everyday.

Some coffees you'd like to sample:

Illy.

Jamaica.

No excesses and then tell me.

[Gloominary]

Here's a much more exhaustive list, from the Caffeine Blues:

Coffee is one of the most heavily sprayed foods/ beverage commodities - if not organic, it is literally a cup of chemicals.
Caffeine increases blood pressure (hypertension) and stress hormone levels
One study documented significant increases in thought disorder and psychosis after caffeine administration.
Caffeine produces metabolic, biochemical and emotional stress
Caffeine causes blood sugar swings
Fatigue, sleep disturbances are often caused by a coffee/ caffeine habit
Fatigue, depression and brain fog can result from caffeine withdrawal
"... caffeine decreases learning skills in a number of ways. It constricts blood vessels in the brain, leading to marked reduction in cerebral blood flow, and interferes with brain biochemistry." (p. 288)
"A single 250-milligram dose of caffeine (the equivalent of about 2.5 six-ounce cups of coffee) has been shown to increase levels of stress hormone epinephrine (commonly known as adrenaline) by more than 200 percent." (p. 56, Caffeine Blues)
"...women consuming high amounts of tea suffered 80 percent more PMS [pre-menstrual syndrome]." (p. 321) "Women who consumed more than 4.5 cups of tea per day were almost 10 times as likely to suffer from PMS as women who drank none." (p. 242) "Basically, the more caffeine you consume, the worse your PMS will be." (p. 240)
Adverse effect on children's growth: "One recent study in Guatemala found that taking children off caffeine for just five months resulted in 22 percent gains in length compared to the group that continued drinking coffee." (p. 292, Caffeine Blues)
Caffeine contributes to irritability, anxiety, anger, headaches and nervousness.
Tiredness during the day, disturbed sleep
Caffeine causes increased loss of B vitamins (measured in the urine)
"One study demonstrated that chronic, heavy caffeine ingestion can be associated with depression and may also cause anxiety and panic in panic disorder patients [...] In a study of agoraphobia and panic attacks, caffeine consumption exacerbated anxiety in 54 percent of the patients and triggered panic attacks in 17 percent." (p. 243)
Menopausal hot flashes and their intensity is linked to caffeine consumption.
"Researchers at the University of California in San Francisco [...] found a significant association between caffeine consumption and reduced bone mass." (p. 232, Caffeine Blues)
Caffeine dramatically reduces iron absorption, contributing to iron deficiency.
Caffeine increases calcium loss and the risk of osteoporosis
Caffeine produces short-term mood elevation but contributes to rebound depression
"... caffeine contributes significantly to anxiety, hostility, and depression. In turn, these are powerful risk factors for irritable bowel syndrome and ulcers." (p. 229)
"...conclusive research has found a significant association between caffeine intake and miscarriage." (p. 229, Caffeine Blues)
Sleepiness, tiredness, feeling disorganized (this effect has been reported to be stronger on women than men)
"Caffeine causes a marked constriction [to the veins] that limits the delivery of oxygen and vital nutrients to the tissues [= to cells]." (p. 221) This constriction of veins affects the brain, peripheral blood vessels, and the eyes (e.g. glaucoma). Uric acid also causes the painful condition of gout.
"...one of the breakdown products of caffeine is methyluric acid, and that can add to the body's uric acid burden." (p. 220, Caffeine Blues) [High uric acid in the body (hyperuricemia) can cause kidney disease, among other problems.]
"Men can significantly reduce their risk for urinary and prostate problems by getting off coffee and caffeine" (p. 216)
"Recovery [from fibromyalgia] is unlikely as long as your adrenals are stressed. Avoiding caffeine will greatly increase your change of recovery"
"Any caffeine intake only worsens [Stage 4] sleep disturbance. [...] Anyone with disturbed Stage 4 sleep will have aches and pains from unrepaired microtrauma that occurs in the muscles and connective tissue." (p. 213)
Caffeine addiction can make asthma symptoms worse (the withdrawal from caffeine can cause an asthma attack, thus the faulty view that caffeine helps with this)
Exhausted adrenal glands - which caffeine contributes to in no small way - are unable to produce either sufficient DHEA or cortisol, and this double whammy sets the stage for autoimmune disease.
Mood disorders
Inflammation
"Caffeine raises blood sugar levels and disrupts the blood sugar-regulating effects of insulin [...] Caffeine raises fatty acid levels in the blood [...] and can significantly increase the risk of heart disease [...] Caffeine raises the homocysteine levels [...] Caffeine causes vascular resistance, in which blood vessels constrict and circulation is reduced. [...] Caffeine raises stress hormone levels [...] Chronic stress, including feelings of irritability and hostility, has been linked to the development of insulin resistance, leading to the diabetic state." (p. 199-200, Caffeine Blues)
Caffeine accelerates aging by impairing immunity
Caffeine has been shown to inhibit DNA repairs
The net effect of caffeine use is accelerated aging, especially of the skin and kidneys
Caffeine is a common trigger for migraine and other types of headache.
"Whether or not you suffer from tension or migrane headaches, you have to ask yourself if you want to consume a drug (caffeine) that clamps down the blood vessels of your brain and restricts oxygen delivery to millions of cells." (p. 189-190)
Caffeine increases tension in the jaw, shoulders, back and neck.
"In one study, individuals with chronic back pain were found to be consuming an average of nearly 400 milligrams of caffeine per day, while matched controls (people the same age and occupation without back pain) averaged less than half that amount." (p. 183)
"... the critical role played by melatonin in regulating immunity and sleep. I presented evidence that caffeine and coffee, especially when combined with other stressors, significantly reduce melatonin levels. And melatonin's effect on the GI tract [gastro-intestinal tract] is more than calming. Researchers believe that melatonin's principal role in the GI tract is to promote healing and boost immune defense." (p. 180, Caffeine Blues)
"In clinical practice, I saw hundreds of patients whose irritable bowel syndrome, colitis, food allergy, gastritis, heartburn, bloating, and abdominal pain improved or healed completely once they got off coffee." (p. 181, Caffeine Blues)
Coffee contributes to ulcer formation because of its harsh acids (which are even worse in decaf coffee). Caffeine itself stimulates acid secretion in the stomach and interferes with the protective action of GABA. This becomes even more of a problem if coffee is consumed on an empty stomach.
Caffeine and chronic stress elevate blood levels of cortisol, which suppresses a number of immune functions, including production of secretory IgA (sIgA), which is a powerful microbial agent. When sIgA levels are low, 'H. pylori' is allowed to proliferate and cause ulcers. When sIgA levels are high, H. pylori and other pathogens in the mouth, throat, and gastrointestinal tract are quickly destroyed. "When viewed in this way, H. pylori is actually a second risk factor. Stress, caffeine, elevated cortisol, and suppressed IgA production are the primary factors contributing to ulcer risk." (p. 176)
Coffee is the frequent cause of both constipation and diarrhea. Caffeine tends to pull water out of the digestive tract, leading to hard stools that are difficult to pass.
Coffee interferes with the digestion of protein
"Caffeine is one of those substances (along with refined sugar, 'fake fats', and hydrogenated oils) that is completely foreign to the human gastrointestinal tract." (p.168, Caffeine Blues)
Coffee raises homocysteine and lowers magnesium. The correct levels of these are critically important for someone high cholesterol and high blood pressure. Alzheimer's disease is also characterized by abnormally high homocysteine levels.
"Moderate coffee drinkers with high cholesterol had more than seven times the risk of heart attack, while heavy coffee drinkers had eighteen times the risk of non-coffee drinkers." (p. 162)
"... blood cholesterol levels appear to rise in direct proportion to the number of cups of coffee consumed, and we now know what causes this rise in blood cholesterol. It's not the caffeine, as once thought, but two other chemicals (diterpene alcohols) naturally found in coffee: cafestol and kahweol." (p. 144, Caffeine Blues)
"... the increased risk of heart attack was seen starting at one to two cups of coffee per day." (p. 161, Caffeine Blues)
Modest amount of caffeine taken before exercise produced dangerous elevations in blood pressure in 45 percent of subjects.
"If a person were injected with 500 milligrams of caffeine, within about an hour he or she would exhibit symptoms of severe mental illness, among them, hallucinations, paranoia, panic, mania, and depression. But the same amount of caffeine administered over the course of a day only produces the milder forms of insanity for which we take tranquilizers and antidepressants." (p. 124-125)
"Research has also found that caffeine ingestion is associated with lower academic performance and greater incidence of psychosomatic illness." (p. 120)
The caffeine-depression connection is very clear.
"... the feelings of tiredness and depression that come three hours after a cup of coffee are seldom associated with caffeine. We blame something else, like the weather or a boring job." (p. 111, Caffeine Blues)
"Coffee cuts you off from the brain's higher centers of reasons and evaluation because you are forcing your brain into defensive, emergency overdrive." (p. 95)
A single cup of coffee can reduce the iron absorption from a meal as much as 75 percent.
"GABA has a unique ability to calm the mind without putting you to sleep. [...] Caffeine, it turns out, disrupts the normal metabolism of GABA. Here's this wonderful brain biochemical that increases the 'filter mechanism' of the brain, helps you to step back and see clearly even under stress, and caffeine screws it up. Thus, in the maze of life you never make it to the cheese." (p. 70-71, Caffeine Blues)
Caffeine lowers the stress threshold in virtually anyone.
Caffeine elevates cortisol, which leads to DHEA (= a steroid-hormone) deficiency. DHEA levels are an indicator of the health of the adrenal glands, and low DHEA levels have also been linked to aging, lack of energy, lack of sex drive, etc. (Stephen Cherniske has written another book about DHEA: The DHEA Breakthrough)
"There is an intriguing but not fully understood connection between stress, caffeine, and autoimmune disorders such as rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, and MS." (p. 67, Caffeine Blues)
"The 'energy' you receive from caffeine is really just a loan from your adrenals and liver, and the interest is extremely high." (p. 64)
Caffeine causes adrenal exhaustion, i.e. the exhaustion of the adrenal glands. Adrenal exhaustion, in turn, has other consequences: "I was seeing patients every day with serious health problems that strong, healthy adrenals could have prevented. Why were these people vulnerable to allergy, inflammation, hypertension, infection, and fatigue?" (p. 65, Caffeine Blues)

http://www.cheap-health-revolution.com/ ... blues.html

[Greta]

I'd really like to live in an ideal society and I don't think coffee, in or out, would help.

Coffee is overrated, I'd rather see more people do just about any drug, even alcohol than coffee.
If we're going to do drugs we should be smoking marijuana and taking LSD and shrooms, we'd probably have a more laid back, mellow, enlightened society.
Coffee turns people into lemmings, obedient workers.
If some other drugs expand consciousness, coffee narrows it.

The psychedelics don't suit everyone; some find them disturbing. Some people truly love being obedient lemming workers - diversity. They love their blinders and will furiously attack anyone who threatens them because those blinders provide the peace that some crave over freedom.

I used to joke at work that coffee was a performance enhancing drug and should be banned to prevent caffeinated workers having a competitive advantage over others. I'm personally more concerned about the increasing retreat from reason, logic and science in recent years than any drug.

[Gloominary]

OK Gloom. That's your opinion. IMO that's quite solipsistic and no scientific data supports that.

As we see our opinions differ by and large.

I thank Pope Clement VIII to allow Satan's beverage. I drink it everyday.

Some coffees you'd like to sample:

Illy.

Jamaica.

No excesses and then tell me.

I totally disagree, coffee is just as dangerous as alcohol or any drug, a few cups of coffee is going to give you about as many problems as a few beers, and 10-20 cups is going to give you as many as 10-20 beers.
We're blinded to its evils, because of our paradigm.
The science is there, it's just overlooked, buried beneath mounds of sugarcoated bullshit, conveniently.

[Sir-Sister-of-Suck]

You're starting to sound like a drunk now.
You'll often hear alcoholics say: 'I've been drunk on the road lots of times, and my driving skills were unaffected, they might've even improved'.
While being drunk or wired doesn't guarantee you'll cause an accident, it does increase your chances.
If your tolerance is very high, because you're used to taking higher doses, you might need to consume significantly more than the average person would to be severely impaired.
Some people are more sensitive to the drug than others, or have better psycho-physiological coping mechanisms.
My friend almost killed me a few times while he was on high doses of coffee (about 3 extra large cups with lots of cream and sugar), I don't get into a car with him at the wheel anymore.

I don't doubt that caffeine could result in someone getting in an accident. A piece of dust flinging in the air could get in someone's eyes and cause them to crash. Maybe we should ban dust, or have mandatory inspections by law of everyone's car daily to ensure there is no dust in them? Except, that's not a plausible concern based on occurring data. If you can show me that the data backs up your claim that caffeine is a considerable concern out on the roads, then maybe you have a point.

You also didn't address my point of forcing people to consume caffeine, because the quoted study actually showed how a certain amount makes the average person better at driving, and less likely to get into a car accident. This sounds like a jocular one, but reverses the same sort of stupidity back at you. If you're goal is ultimately reducing the number of accidents at the sacrifice of freedom, why not?

Here's a, brief, list of things coffee typically does to people at medium-high doses or in sensitive persons:

I don't believe Erowid states anywhere that they are 'typical' symptoms. Regardless, the cool thing about the developed western world, is that we don't force anyone to consume things they don't want to. Maybe it would be a good idea to dabble with such a concept in your utopia, but luckily, people here who do get negative side-effects from caffeine can weigh them out to the positive ones and just choose not to take it.

The reason why coffee warrants a specific limit, is because so many people consume it, 90% of people are caffeine addicts, and many more use it on occasion, that and society is underestimating the dangers, there needs to be more consciousness raised about it.

It doesn't matter if 100% of the populace is technically 'addicted' to caffeine, the objection I raise is that it's not a very intoxicating drug to the very vast majority of people taking it. It is negligible to the rate of accidents in the US, and I've never seen any study make a connection. This is such a non-issue, you really should just stop. You're not this edgy hipster because you think it should be illegal to drive on coffee, you just sound autistic.

Well you're dead wrong, I experimented with quite a few street drugs when I was young, from LSD and shrooms to meth, PCP and XTC.
Of all the street drugs I took, I found meth to be the most similar to high doses of caffeine, and I've talked to people online who've corroborated this.

If you say so. Caffeine is still nothing compared to meth in terms of its adverse side effects, tapering off of it, or its withdrawal potential. Withdrawing from meth can actually kill you, and reaching the LD50 is also not implausible.

Or maybe your love for coffee has blinded you to its adverse effects.

My love for nicotine doesn't seem to blind me from clearly telling you about its adverse side effects, because with nicotine they're actually there. I'm also not really the biggest coffee fan.

Mainstream science doesn't mean it's not pseudoscience, it just means it's mainstream.
Scientists have been caught by others and themselves exaggerating claims and telling outright lies about everything from sugar to tobacco many, many times.
Follow the money.
Today's alt and fringe can easily become tomorrows mainstream, and vice versa.

I would need to know what you mean by 'mainstream science'; I don't think you fully understand what went on with Big Tobbaco. They weren't paying scientists to release false information, they bribed many studies to not release certain information.

And you think that much of the supplement industry isn't in it for the money?

[Sir-Sister-of-Suck]

Furthermore, it's not merely happenstance coffee is the number one beverage, drug, and number two commodity in the world, it's an integral part of the capitalist, consumerist system, which's on its way out, one way, or another.

Capitalism is on its way out?

Yea didn't you hear?
Endless growth on a finite plant is impossible.

That's not necessarily true, because even on a 'finite plant' there's also a recycling effect, so growth in addition to loss. Regardless, there's no indication the world at large is giving up on capitalism. Given our current political climate, I have no idea what you're even talking about

[Sir-Sister-of-Suck]

Natural drugs like marijuana tend to be healthier than unnatural ones, but it's even healthier to improve things by making changes to your diet, exercise and lifestyle, which's even more natural.

...which again are not mutually exclusive. You can be a superfit, healthy individual who also happens to smoke some pot and drink coffee on the side. Joe Rogan says he actually becomes more motivated to work out after taking marijuana. There are many people who think the same with caffeine.

Yea if you smoke a, little pot and drink a, little coffee on the side you can still be healthy, and if you don't smoke or drink any you can be even healthier.
I can see coffee making you more motivated to work out, but marijuana?
He must be unusual that way.
Perhaps a little can numb the pain of a workout, but a lot can more easily rob one of their motivation.
If people had more time to relax and eat healthier, they wouldn't need coffee to feel like working out in the first place, they'd naturally feel that way.
The reason why we often have so little time is cause coffee, among other things, keeps people running this capitalist, consumerist rat race, all the way to hell.

I don't think it necessarily is a guarantee that you'll be 'healthier'. When you want to start measuring something like 'health' on a exact metric system though, I think the discussion can get very discombobulated. I mean, we can make general statements and agree that someone like an athlete is healthy, but when you want to get down into the nuance and implying it has an exact gamut, I think some clarification is needed.

Why do you think that someone who smokes pot or drinks caffeine is necessarily less healthy in a given scenario? Even if due to adverse physical effects, these drugs could very well help make them happier by putting serotonin and dopamine in their brain. I don't think it's your call to say that's more or less important or 'healthier'.

[PauloL]

[...]

10-20 cups [of coffee] is going to give you as many as 10-20 beers.

[...]

If I drank 10 beers I'd enter coma, so I'll take 10 cups of coffee.