How do Christians Expect to Convert Atheists?

[surreptitious57]

How is multiverse defined in relation to how Universe is defined

Multiverse and Universe are the same

[surreptitious57]

And does a capital M and /or U make a difference from if there was a small m and / or u

The following is hypothetical : Multiverse and Universe is ALL THERE IS
We are inside a universe which is one of very many inside the Universe

Physics books want you to read them ken for they do
not want you getting all of your information from me

[surreptitious57]

How often do you actually read and understand the words I write

Not very often so you must try to be as clear and precise as you can
The more clear and precise you are the better I can understand you

[Dontaskme]

I cannot accept the notion of there being no me or of God being in everything or of knowledge being an illusion
And I also see no reason why reality has to be the manifestation of anything at all other than what it actually is

Alright let me try a different approach.

When you are in deep sleep during the night, you exist don't you? even though there is no awareness of yourself.. you still are there,you exist.. if you were not there you wouldn't be able to come out of your sleep obviously.

So, here we have a situation where you can have no awareness of yourself while you are asleep, a state where there is no thought of you at all - even though you are there ...So here it seems that you exist even before you become aware of yourself... for you to be there even though you have no awareness of such...this must mean that there is something else that must always be present prior to you in order for you to hold the capacity to become aware you exist ... So then, upon waking from your sleep, something else happens where there is another awareness that takes on the form of existing in a world of ''others'' as witnessed or sensed...an awareness that had not been their prior to your awakening...

Here it seems there are two states of awareness, one unaware, the other aware...but...they are the same one awareness in different states that's all.

Here we have a situation where you exist twice....albeit illusory ...In the first existence is when you are in sleep but are not aware of it. And then upon waking from sleep, the you that already exists appears to become aware of itself existing...this is the duality of knowing you exist where you had no knowledge prior...

You become aware that you are aware..in that a second overlay of awareness is artificially superimposed upon already existing awareness...appearing to exist separate from what you already are.. that overlay is fictional conceptual overlay upon what already is...and it is that overlay that is the illusion...not the ever present awareness itself...which is the only reality.

But I do not expect you to understand or accept what I've just said...

.

[surreptitious57]

You observe and see that time exists and things happen within that. I do not observe and see that. So I am unable to you how what you observe
and see is not true. I can only learn how to express what I observe and see better. I have already explained that I do not observe and see time as
some actual thing. If for example you are 20 light years away from earth at this given moment what is the time and what is time ? Where are you
in relation to time ? And how are things happening in time

Here is a post written by you that is very clear and precise and so therefore makes sense
Unfortunately not all your posts are like this even though it would be better if they were

[surreptitious57]

I DO have full and real control over My life

Here is a post written by you that is not clear and precise and you should know why. You say I DO have full and real control over My life
But you do not explain why so I have no idea what you mean so can you make sure you always adequately explain your self from now on

[surreptitious57]

Sometimes mind and brain are used synonymously but more accurately mind is a function of the brain

If the mind is more accurately a function of the brain then are you able to explain how this is so

I have absolutely no idea so you should not be asking me since I cannot help you
You could study the brain and then you would know the answer to that question

[surreptitious57]

But I do not expect you to understand or accept what I have just said

You will be disappointed then because I understood every single word of what you just said
But I think it best if I leave it there for now because I do not want to go anywhere with this

[Dontaskme]

Well prepare to be disappointed then because I understood every single word of what you just said
But I am not prepared to go into any detail and so would rather just leave it there if you dont mind

Excellent!

Because what I've said is everyone's knowledge. It's not something I have and you don't have.
It's the knowledge of self-realisation for no one..aka everyone... in that there is no actual separate self to realise. It's a pointing back to the ever present nondual awareness which is the only self.


In Self there are many interpretations / assumptions / ideas / expressions ..all appearances of the mind, they all differ from one another in their expressive form as they appear, and they are all correct...since their source is of the same place and known only by the only knowing there is which is conscious awareness.

So to argue with other peoples ways of expressing their beliefs is a waste of time because you are never going to be privy to their thoughts or beliefs and vice versa ...I am also guilty of arguing with others...but lets be honest about this and realise the behaviour is only the play of consciousness dreaming difference where there is none.

.

But I think it best if I leave it there for now because I do not want to go anywhere with this

There is nowhere to go. There is only here and what's appearing as it is..to no one.

.We are playing with our eternal echoes.

.

[surreptitious57]

I understand it perfectly well but probably will not accept it for myself because of the way my mind thinks
But I do find that as I get older I become more detached so have fewer fixed opinions on anything anymore
That sense of detachment gives me peace of mind and keeps the ego in check hence the reason why I say I
know nothing at all. Not entirely true. But knowledge is ephemeral for we are all only just passing through

[surreptitious57]

There is only here

Only the present can be experienced for the past has
already happened while the future has yet to happen

[Dontaskme]

I understand it perfectly well but probably will not accept it for myself because of the way my mind thinks
But I do find that as I get older I become more detached so have fewer fixed opinions on anything anymore
That sense of detachment gives me peace of mind and keeps the ego in check hence the reason why I say I
know nothing at all. Not entirely true. But knowledge is ephemeral for we are all only just passing through

''Only two kinds of people can attain to Self-knowledge: those whose minds are not encumbered at all with learning, that is to say, not overcrowded with thoughts borrowed from others; and those who, after studying all the scriptures and sciences, have come to realize that they know nothing.''

''Work With Your Hands But Let Your Mind Remain At His Feet .''
~Ramakrishna

Sometimes we have to wade through heaps of knowledge just to arrive at the place of no knowledge, the place of perfect peace, the place we never left. The world of knowledge is a farce. May the farce be with you.
Or forever RIP

.

[ken]

You are questioning why humans persist in referring to God as a he, yet you think that a better alternative is the word “It”?

What comes to imagination when the word 'It' is used compared to if 'him' is used'?

What comes to my mind is mostly a referencing of anything lifeless (in the “normal” sense) - a rock, or a chair, or a pencil, or a hammer, for example.

What is 'my' or 'your' 'mind'? Where does it exist and where did it come from? What does it look like? When did it start? How does it work? I will not ask why is there a mind, just yet. But while we are at this, who or what is the 'my' that supposedly has a mind?

By the way, did you notice the word 'it' is just used instead of using the same word of 'mind' over and over again? This rule can also apply for words like 'God' also. Words like 'they' can also be used as a gender less term instead of 'him' or 'her', but I prefer 'It' for now for God as that word does put a human perspective onto some thing, which by all means would not be human in nature.

(I qualified that by inserting (in the “normal” sense). Because, like you, I believe that the entire universe, and everything in it, is literally alive.)

I still am not sure how it is the normal sense. If you and I observe and see all things being alive and just a part of Life, Itself, is one thing, but because a term was once used generally or by most people that, to Me, does not make it normal. To Me, what is normal is looking at, seeing, and understanding what is actually true and correct, and, what is abnormal or not normal is looking for, seeing, and understanding what is already believed to be true and correct.

Which one better describes a gender less entity?

As most human beings do not know who or what God is yet, thus they have no idea what God IS, then describing God in a way that does not presume nor assume any thing at all I found is better than pretending like you know what It is. 'It' is just a nondescript word, and works for some thing that has not been described or defined yet.

And yet, all through this thread you are attempting to describe and define God as an impersonal repository of all things, and of all knowledge – something of which you refer to as “one Mind.”

What do you actually mean by 'an impersonal repository of all things and of all knowledge'?

I can explain this in much greater detail but I am unsure from what perspective you are looking at and seeing this. I do not want to assume how you are defining this, and for how personal or impersonal God is this can also be explained.

And according to you there are no other minds other than this “one Mind” - something of which you seem to be “channeling” to us (like Esther Hicks and her “Abraham” collective).

Not sure who you are referring to here, but anyway the one Mind is within EVERY thing EQUALLY, which obviously includes 'you' to.

...do you actually think that something as cold and impersonal as the word “it” is appropriate and fitting for the living Creator of the universe?

To Me, 'It' is not cold and impersonal. Calling some thing an 'It' just means I have not yet described what 'It' is yet.

In a rather forceful and confident tone, you stated the following to surreptitious57:

I have given a thing a label, but I have certainly NOT described any thing really yet. And, if this came across as forceful and confident, then thank you for being open and honest. I obviously do not see and experience what others see and experience. I need to be told things like this so that I can learn more and anew about how to express better. I knew I am confident in what I am saying but I did not know that it comes across as confident and I certainly did not say it forcefully nor was I meaning to be forceful at all.

There is no such thing as anyones mind. How many times do I have to say that there is only one Mind before clarification is asked for

So by all means, ken, as a “clarifying question” extended from me to you, please describe what the “one Mind” or the “It” truly is.

Finally.

Firstly I am not saying what the Mind is. I am just giving My perspective of what It could be, which can be taken any way.

To Me, within every human head with a functioning brain there are invisible thoughts and this is what most people are referring to when they say mind. If and when you take notice of when people use the word 'mind' that word could be very easily replaced with the word 'thought/s' and the exact same meaning can be expressed. Thoughts are a function of the brain, or a result of a functioning brain. Within each and every different and unique human body there are different and unique thoughts. However, within each and every different and unique human body there is a capacity or ability to imagine things that a brain has never experienced. This imaginative ability has allowed human beings to invent and create things beyond once was seen as impossible and even seeming unimaginable. A brain, itself, can only put out what has been put into it, this output is called thoughts. But what allows thinking beyond just the normal functioning of the brain is this ability to see, learn and understand things beyond what has already been learned and understood. This is the Mind. The Mind is the one and the same within every thing, And, It is what allows human beings to be able to imagine the past, which is usually only done through memories, which are just a function of the brain, but it is possible to imagine back further past just memories and also allows human beings to imagine into the future and what they can be doing then. The Mind allows humans beings to transcend into other things, other places, and other events, obviously through image-nation.

The Mind also allows the real truth to be seen and understood, when a truth is already believed to be known and be true by the brain. The Mind is invisible, transparent and can transcend ALL things, whereas the physical brain is limited by its matter. Mind over matter. For example, most peoples of the days when this is written "know", believe, and/or say that 'we', human beings, need money to live. Some will even try to argue that this is true. These people are only looking from the brain, thus from a closed perspective, and thus only see what the brain is telling them, and that is that is true that we need money to live. However, the one and only Mind, which is always open can see ALL, and knows ALL, and thus knows the truth that human beings do not need money to live. They have just learned to want and use money.

Even the word 'need' in that sentence is used, subliminally, by the brain to try to justify and argue for its own position. That is from its own already gained views. How many adults tell themselves that they "need" a new car, when the truth is they just want one? The Mind knows what the truth is. The brain just thinks is knows what the truth is. The brain is continually trying to deceive one's self, which the self (small s) is only a result and/or a sum of all that information that has been fed into the brain, but the Mind, or real and true Self (big S) is able to override this and find and see the real Truth. This is where God and devil and such comes into play. And, I could go on for another century explaining how what is written in the bible and in ALL other scriptures relates to this exactly, but in short God, in the spiritual sense, is the Mind, which is always open and is what has allowed, through evolution, a species to come into existence with the ability to Create, any thing It wants for Its Self.

This knowledge of Self would not have come about without a species like the human being who has come into existence, through evolution, to have evolved with a brain capacity to become aware of it and Its self and Self. Although I, God, am called the living Creator, I could not actually see/experience what I am Creating without a species, and its senses, from which I am able to bear witness and observe what It is that is being created. I, the Mind, am God in the spiritual, or just invisible sense, (remember thoughts and emotions are also invisible and they have the ability to control all of what human beings do, without them being some thing super natural or unreal), any way God, in the physical sense, is just EVERY thing.

EVERY thing interacts with EVERY thing else and this is how ALL creation is created. This is how it always has been and always will be. BUT this always, and in all ways, happens NOW. The first Creator of ALL things is what happens NOW. And, the NOW is in a continual state of motion. Again I could go on for another century explaining this so it is fully understood.

For example to look out into the Universe from the perspective of a human being there is no limit so this Universe very easily could be infinite. And, the most basic fundamental aspects of this Universe is matter and the non-physical between matter. Although the Universe can be proven to be infinite and one It is actually made up of these two most basic things, that is some (physical) thing and no thing. No thing, in between and around all physical things, allows all those things to move about freely and constantly. To assume the Universe had a beginning is just looking at things from the brain and most brains, in this day and age, have been fed the information "In the beginning" so by the way brains work, that is can only put out what has been fed into them, just like a computer does, a beginning must be so. But "In the beginning" actually refers to the NOW. For example if human beings imagined going to a beach say in a week or month and going and cleaning it up, then they could actually make that happen. The creation of that "new" clean beach would be done by the creator, human beings. Now, imagine what could take place on earth? For the way earth is now, with pollution, warring, and greed was NOT done by any other creator than human beings, themselves. If and when they accept and take full responsibility for how they mis/behave and for what they create, themselves, then the Creator of the "world", which is in essence is the Universe, then they will see HOW who and what the actual Creator IS.

The one and only Mind, which is always open, shows what IS.

However, after reading a few of your subsequent posts, I have come to realize that you do indeed view God as an impersonal entity.

So what?

How do you view what God is? What and how do you propose God is a male of exactly? If indeed that is how you view what God is.

Are you serious?

Yes.

Now I am not suggesting that I cannot be wrong on this issue, but I clearly stated to you that I believe that God’s ultimate form is that of a “genderless, wholeness of being,” - something that can only be witnessed within the transcendent context in which God’s form is actually revealed.

Let us reveal It then. God, in the spiritual sense, IS like an open Mind that is able to see, know and understand ALL there is to know. An open Mind is also how A Creator can create.

God, in the physical sense, IS like every physical thing, which is being created and creating, all at the same time. Through an always evolving-creating freely able motion of physical things, species evolve that are able to learn, see, and understand ALL-THAT-IS. Everything as One IS in creation and thus the Creator of Its Self.

It is obvious, ken, that the effort you hope others would make in trying to understand your point of view does not apply to you in the reverse.

What do you mean? I have asked multiple clarifying questions, but rarely get a reply. I, on the other hand, have answered every question that I have seen. Unless of course I have missed any, which would have been unintentional.

Also, I have rarely witnessed others trying to express any other that what they believe is true, which I already know why they believe it, and it never fits to form a true and accurate picture of real Life.

How do you propose and explain how a living Creature created the Universe? By the way what is the Universe, exactly? And, how many Universes are there?

Now you are demonstrating just how disingenuous you can be, for you implied that you had visited my website via the link I provided (again, here: http://www.theultimateseeds.com/murmurings.htm).

I did, and there is NOTHING there saying WHAT the living Creature IS. Nor is there anything there saying WHAT the Universe IS, nor how many Universes you say there are.

And the point is that had you actually done so and scrolled down through the short series of drawings I created, then you would know precisely how I propose how a living Creature created the universe, and precisely what I suggest the universe is.

What there is, is only a few words there. If it states that, I certainly did not see it and I also did not see answers in the drawings.

Again, you want people to make the effort to try and understand you, yet you do not seem to feel obligated to extend that courtesy to others.
_______

I do NOT want any person to make the effort to try and understand Me. ALL people are free to choose whatever they want to do. If they want to freely ask Me clarifying and/or challenging questions, then great. But if people are going to instantly dismiss what I say before I get a chance to explain it, then within the human being part of me feelings of frustration will arise. But this is nothing unusual for me as since i was born i was never listened to. I have heard what human beings say about what they think, assume, and/or believe is true. I have yet to find a person who is able to say they have all the answers and/or are able to answer all of My questions successfully. I just suggest that let us look together at what COULD be true. Really the only thing I have done here is just suggested that if you are truly Honest, Open up completely, and are serious about Wanting to change, for the better, then you will find ALL the answers that you want and are looking for. The only thing that I am really wanting to say and show IS HOW 'you' can and will find what it is that you are looking for. If 'you' are looking to and want to make life better for your children, (and in return you will be rewarded), or if you are just looking for and wanting to make a better life for 'you' and a few others now, then you will get what you want, and deserve.

[surreptitious57]

Sometimes we have to wade through heaps of knowledge just to arrive at the place of no knowledge the
place of perfect peace the place we never left. The world of knowledge is a farce. May the farce be with you

Knowledge is important but only in this life for it will pass. The place of no knowledge is where it cannot be known and that place
is death the place of eternal non consciousness. I am not afraid of death as you cannot be afraid of what you can never experience

[surreptitious57]

I do not use words such as God or Mind because of the heavy metaphysical baggage that comes with them
Instead the word I use is Reality which like Universe simply means ALL THERE IS and includes the past and
present and future and everything that is known and unknown in relation to existence in any form it takes