Is doing evil a necessity of life?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Necromancer
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Re: Is doing evil a necessity of life?

Post by Necromancer » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:10 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:37 pm
Is doing evil a necessity of life?
Not for religious people, IMO, we normally behave and long for Heaven/Nirvana/etc.
Maybe doing evil a necessity of life for Atheists who do not have the Humanist Manifesto at hand? No?

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PauloL
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Re: Is doing evil a necessity of life?

Post by PauloL » Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:12 am

Necromancer wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:10 am
Greatest I am wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:37 pm
Is doing evil a necessity of life?
Not for religious people, IMO, we normally behave and long for Heaven/Nirvana/etc.
Maybe doing evil a necessity of life for Atheists who do not have the Humanist Manifesto at hand? No?
I think my reply answers yours.

without free will, which has evil as a side effect, we would be simple automata

You are free to be a religious person or an atheist.

Anyway, no position grants no evil. I could give some examples, but maybe concrete cases are outside the scope of Philosophy and could be "politically" sensible.

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Re: Is doing evil a necessity of life?

Post by Greatest I am » Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:08 pm

PauloL wrote:
Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:36 pm
To the question, Is doing evil a necessity of life?

My answer is yes, or more broadly contingency is a necessity of life.

For life to have sense, there must be contingency. Of course, if God created life, then life could have no evil as an option. I agree. However, without free will, which has evil as a side effect, we would be simple automata. You would have absolutely no choice but to decide always what is fatefully correct. Like an ant, that only does what it is programmed to do.

Nothing is granted in life, not even personal decisions.
I agree with most of what you put but not your last sentence.

Personal decisions are granted by our free will and opportunities are they not?

For instance, even in this present chat of ours, is your personal decision to answer in a positive tone, whether you agree or not, or negative tone, not your free will granting you and helping you make a personal choice?

I think it helped me decide to give a cordial reply instead of a more bullish one.

Regards
DL

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Re: Is doing evil a necessity of life?

Post by Greatest I am » Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:13 pm

Necromancer wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:10 am
Greatest I am wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:37 pm
Is doing evil a necessity of life?
Not for religious people, IMO, we normally behave and long for Heaven/Nirvana/etc.
Maybe doing evil a necessity of life for Atheists who do not have the Humanist Manifesto at hand? No?
Yet the U.S. which touts itself as a Christian nation, has the heist abortion and incarceration stats in the world.

This fact belies what you put. No?

I find your comment on Humanist Manifesto strange, given that more and more Christians are turning into atheists in the West, to the point that Christianity is basically dying.

Regards
DL

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Re: Is doing evil a necessity of life?

Post by Greatest I am » Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:17 pm

PauloL wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:12 am
Necromancer wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:10 am
Greatest I am wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:37 pm
Is doing evil a necessity of life?
Not for religious people, IMO, we normally behave and long for Heaven/Nirvana/etc.
Maybe doing evil a necessity of life for Atheists who do not have the Humanist Manifesto at hand? No?
I think my reply answers yours.

without free will, which has evil as a side effect, we would be simple automata

You are free to be a religious person or an atheist.

Anyway, no position grants no evil. I could give some examples, but maybe concrete cases are outside the scope of Philosophy and could be "politically" sensible.
I agree with all you put other than your last.

I disagree as nature and philosophy forces us to compete which creates victims who will think evil has come their way if they do not recognize the good in their loss.

Take competition out of the human equation and we will likely go extinct.

Regards
DL

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Re: Is doing evil a necessity of life?

Post by PauloL » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:49 pm

Greatest, thanks for the cordiality first of all :)

I think that an option between cordiality and a more bullish reply is possible of course. But nothing grants cordiality, except our expectations. We expect a reply to be cordial, like yours, but nothing grants it.

Yes your second question is more complex. We can accept that evil is a side effect of free will so that we aren't automata. However, the elements are harder to understand if we believe God exists. I think my only hypothesis is against the dogma. To explain the elements, I think that God mustn't be almighty in that a universe had to be created according to physical laws, and God created it with the best possible physical laws, not with ideal physical laws, which would grant that Nature could never but benefit us, but aren't "physically" possible.

Maybe we don't even need to invoke the elements when discussing this. Just think about the guy that slips from a roof and falls in the floor, perhaps dying. What is the force of gravity doing there? Couldn't it be cancelled just for a moment in just one point?

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Re: Is doing evil a necessity of life?

Post by Necromancer » Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:04 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:17 pm
I disagree as nature and philosophy forces us to compete which creates victims who will think evil has come their way if they do not recognize the good in their loss.

Take competition out of the human equation and we will likely go extinct.

Regards
DL
Hah-hah-hah, DL, you mistake "victims" for believers in something greater than your cold grave! BTW, it seems stupid to "believe in science" when the big questions of life are there to be "resolved"/"appeased" in yourself, in your mind! Also, people don't believe in science, they live by it because it generates knowledge, not speculations!

Hah-hah-hah-hah! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D 8) :mrgreen:

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Re: Is doing evil a necessity of life?

Post by Vendetta » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:26 pm

PauloL wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:49 pm
To explain the elements, I think that God mustn't be almighty in that a universe had to be created according to physical laws,
Isn't in required within the concept of God to be almighty? If there is a scenario in which he is not, then he must not be God.

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Re: Is doing evil a necessity of life?

Post by PauloL » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:34 pm

Vendetta wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:26 pm

Isn't in required within the concept of God to be almighty? If there is a scenario in which he is not, then he must not be God.
Vendetta, that's a crucial point and we come to the question of the almightiness of God, like if God can create 4-sided triangles.

But we have here an empirical example, the laws of Nature, created by God, have limits that contribute to mankind evil.

Why does God let the guy slip from the floor and die if God had just to cancel gravity for an instant?

The question is perhaps, is God almighty in the sense that we conceive it, limitless?

But, of course, an almighty being can create limited worlds, but again this is not as we define a world, namely ours, created by God.

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Re: Is doing evil a necessity of life?

Post by Vendetta » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:42 pm

PauloL wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:34 pm
Vendetta wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:26 pm

Isn't in required within the concept of God to be almighty? If there is a scenario in which he is not, then he must not be God.
Vendetta, that's a crucial point and we come to the question of the almightiness of God, like if God can create 4-sided triangles.

But we have here an empirical example, the laws of Nature, created by God, have limits that contribute to mankind evil.

Why does God let the guy slip from the floor and die if God had just to cancel gravity for an instant?

The question is perhaps, is God almighty in the sense that we conceive it, limitless?
Yes, this makes sense, but instead of his lack of intervention being evidence for his lack of capability to intervene, maybe what should be focused on is the possibility that while capable, he specifically chose not to intervene.
Does this mean God is evil? Is there some sort of higher rationale that we lack the perspective to understand? What is it that could make God intentionally allow for an individual to die if he had the capability to prevent it?

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Re: Is doing evil a necessity of life?

Post by PauloL » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:46 pm

Vendetta, I'm sorry that I edited my reply and added a phrase that might answer your questions in part.

I like your reasoning very much, a dilemma, God must either be limited or evil.

Yes, as we think more and more this is becoming creepy......... brrrrrrrrrr

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Re: Is doing evil a necessity of life?

Post by Greatest I am » Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:20 pm

PauloL wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:49 pm
Greatest, thanks for the cordiality first of all :)

I think that an option between cordiality and a more bullish reply is possible of course. But nothing grants cordiality, except our expectations. We expect a reply to be cordial, like yours, but nothing grants it.

Yes your second question is more complex. We can accept that evil is a side effect of free will so that we aren't automata. However, the elements are harder to understand if we believe God exists. I think my only hypothesis is against the dogma. To explain the elements, I think that God mustn't be almighty in that a universe had to be created according to physical laws, and God created it with the best possible physical laws, not with ideal physical laws, which would grant that Nature could never but benefit us, but aren't "physically" possible.
What a bright mind. Nice to see one as they are not as common as I would like to see in such places.

You are correct that nature "could never but benefit us, but aren't "physically" possible.

Nature creates for the best possible end, this is irrefutable, and if it could physically intervene, we would all reach that best possible end. Unfortunately, DNA damage, a chaotic system, thwarts what nature would prefer if it could have thoughts.

That fact is why Gnostic Christians have written this.

Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.
But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty.

The world cannot be other than what it is, given all that came before this instant in time, and all instants in time, so it is always the best that it can possibly be. The world and all on it are always trying to evolve our perfection to a more perfect state as nature tries to bring us to our best possible end.
Maybe we don't even need to invoke the elements when discussing this. Just think about the guy that slips from a roof and falls in the floor, perhaps dying. What is the force of gravity doing there? Couldn't it be cancelled just for a moment in just one point?
That would be nice but if it did it once as a good policy, then it would likely do it all the time.

That is what I think a sentient nature would do based on best possible end for all things.

Regards
DL

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Re: Is doing evil a necessity of life?

Post by thedoc » Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:41 pm

Vendetta wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:42 pm
What is it that could make God intentionally allow for an individual to die if he had the capability to prevent it?
Is it possible that the greater good to God is a soul going to Heaven rather than continuing it's life on Earth?

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Re: Is doing evil a necessity of life?

Post by thedoc » Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:45 pm

PauloL wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:46 pm
I like your reasoning very much, a dilemma, God must either be limited or evil.
How about self limiting. The assumption is that God is all powerful, but given free will, can God choose to not exercise that power?

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Re: Is doing evil a necessity of life?

Post by PauloL » Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:50 pm

Greatest, I thank you very much for your compliments and am happy that you liked my answer.

I read yours carefully and find it very interesting indeed and deep, too.

Gnostic Christian quote is wonderful.

In fact, cancelling gravity would be a never-ending exception incompatible with the existence of the Universe (and life).

Philosophy doesn't give final answers, and we'll never know (in life at least) if evil is really a necessity of life, but we can argument forever and refine our thoughts and vision.

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