when lying is the right thing to do

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commonsense
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Re: when lying is the right thing to do

Post by commonsense » Wed May 24, 2017 2:00 pm

My position:
commonsense wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 2:11 am
Lying might be the right thing to do when pitted against the preservation of life, for example when the hitman comes to your door; perhaps when lying to preserve a relationship, such as when asked, “Does this outfit make my butt look too big?” or when a prisoner of war is being interrogated by the enemy.

Of course, lying might not always be the preferred course of action in these and other examples, however these are indeed instances where lying could be the right thing to do.
Please follow the link. It's a quick read:
prof wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 8:25 am
Those interested in this topic would also enjoy the discussion on pages 40-42, under the caption "On Lying and Honesty", HERE:

http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/ ... _Lifef.pdf
The [...] link discusses "the little white lies" and the issue of "lying to save a life."
Vindication for my position?

Walker
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Re: when lying is the right thing to do

Post by Walker » Wed May 24, 2017 11:43 pm

commonsense wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 1:16 pm

Of course, lying might not always be the preferred course of action in these and other examples, however these are indeed instances where lying could be the right thing to do.
Who said anything about requiring?


I don't think there are any instances, but you're welcome to try and name one.

My position, which is actually a spiritual practice until one has no choice, is, if you can't tell the truth, don't speak.

commonsense
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Re: when lying is the right thing to do

Post by commonsense » Fri May 26, 2017 5:36 pm

Walker wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 11:43 pm
commonsense wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 1:16 pm

Of course, lying might not always be the preferred course of action in these and other examples, however these are indeed instances where lying could be the right thing to do.
Who said anything about requiring?


I don't think there are any instances, but you're welcome to try and name one.

My position, which is actually a spiritual practice until one has no choice, is, if you can't tell the truth, don't speak.


For Walker--

I adhere to the very same principle, except in a game of cards. 😏

As much as I abhor lying ITRW, I love to permit myself to bluff at cards. I'm not very good at it though, because I always seem to chortle when doing it!

Walker
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Re: when lying is the right thing to do

Post by Walker » Fri May 26, 2017 7:41 pm

commonsense wrote:
Fri May 26, 2017 5:36 pm
Walker wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 11:43 pm
commonsense wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 1:16 pm

Of course, lying might not always be the preferred course of action in these and other examples, however these are indeed instances where lying could be the right thing to do.
Who said anything about requiring?


I don't think there are any instances, but you're welcome to try and name one.

My position, which is actually a spiritual practice until one has no choice, is, if you can't tell the truth, don't speak.


For Walker--

I adhere to the very same principle, except in a game of cards. 😏

As much as I abhor lying ITRW, I love to permit myself to bluff at cards. I'm not very good at it though, because I always seem to chortle when doing it!

Bluffing in poker is not lying.
- How the opponent interprets your actions is up to the opponent.

If you bet heavy with nothing, which is commonly called a bluff, that is not a lie.
- You are simply telling the opponent the price to see your cards.

commonsense
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Re: when lying is the right thing to do

Post by commonsense » Fri May 26, 2017 8:37 pm

Walker wrote:
Fri May 26, 2017 7:41 pm
commonsense wrote:
Fri May 26, 2017 5:36 pm
Walker wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 11:43 pm


I don't think there are any instances, but you're welcome to try and name one.

My position, which is actually a spiritual practice until one has no choice, is, if you can't tell the truth, don't speak.
For Walker--

I adhere to the very same principle, except in a game of cards. 😏

As much as I abhor lying ITRW, I love to permit myself to bluff at cards. I'm not very good at it though, because I always seem to chortle when doing it!
Bluffing in poker is not lying.
- How the opponent interprets your actions is up to the opponent.

If you bet heavy with nothing, which is commonly called a bluff, that is not a lie.
- You are simply telling the opponent the price to see your cards.

I don't play poker.

Instead, let's play hearts, spades, bridge, pinochle, sheepshead, euchre, rummy, canasta, rummy or go fish.

When we're through with that, let's play balderdash, risk or To Tell the Truth. Then some sports that employ deceptive strategies. And what about seeking careers in advertising and sales? Above all, politics is a great place for lying.

I could make untruthful statements of all sorts for any of the activities referenced.

BTW, I might've lied when I said I don't play poker.

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Vendetta
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Re: when lying is the right thing to do

Post by Vendetta » Sat May 27, 2017 1:01 am

Walker wrote:
Fri May 26, 2017 7:41 pm
commonsense wrote:
Fri May 26, 2017 5:36 pm
Walker wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 11:43 pm


I don't think there are any instances, but you're welcome to try and name one.

My position, which is actually a spiritual practice until one has no choice, is, if you can't tell the truth, don't speak.
For Walker--

I adhere to the very same principle, except in a game of cards. 😏

As much as I abhor lying ITRW, I love to permit myself to bluff at cards. I'm not very good at it though, because I always seem to chortle when doing it!
Bluffing in poker is not lying.
- How the opponent interprets your actions is up to the opponent.

If you bet heavy with nothing, which is commonly called a bluff, that is not a lie.
- You are simply telling the opponent the price to see your cards.
This is an interesting perspective, and yes, in that sense you're right. But this can be applied to other situations in the world beyond cards where people can manipulate others for gain, without outright lying to them.
Is this any more ethical than lying?

Walker
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Re: when lying is the right thing to do

Post by Walker » Sat May 27, 2017 1:47 am

commonsense wrote:
Fri May 26, 2017 8:37 pm
I don't play poker.

Instead, let's play hearts, spades, bridge, pinochle, sheepshead, euchre, rummy, canasta, rummy or go fish.

When we're through with that, let's play balderdash, risk or To Tell the Truth. Then some sports that employ deceptive strategies. And what about seeking careers in advertising and sales? Above all, politics is a great place for lying.

I could make untruthful statements of all sorts for any of the activities referenced.

BTW, I might've lied when I said I don't play poker.
There’s no manipulation in poker.
- Neither is there lying.
- How you act when looking at your cards is your business.
- How people interpret your actions while playing poker is their business.
- If you get some good cards and prance around like you love a parade, that’s just your thing.
- If you get some good cards and feel like parading around but don’t, no one says you must.
- Life is the measure and the situation of poker has a life until that game is over.
- The measure of poker is staying alive in the game.
- If you lose your chips, you won’t be alive in the game.
- Therefore, by the measure of life and not abstract notions of what defines lying, if you parade around in poker with a big smile on your face when you get a good hand because you have an abstract notion this is the way to be honest, and if you bet heavy only when you get a good hand because you think you're being honest according to this abstract notion that doesn't factor staying alive in the game, then you won’t be alive in the game for long. You will lose all your chips, and it will be because you didn’t understand the life of the situation.

*

If you're playing fish and your opponent says, "Do you have any four's (or whatever)," and you reply no, when in fact you do have a four, then in that case you are a liar, and a cheat.

Walker
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Re: when lying is the right thing to do

Post by Walker » Sat May 27, 2017 2:58 am

Vendetta wrote:
Sat May 27, 2017 1:01 am
This is an interesting perspective, and yes, in that sense you're right. But this can be applied to other situations in the world beyond cards where people can manipulate others for gain, without outright lying to them.
Is this any more ethical than lying?
By manipulation, do you mean manipulating energy so that imagination and reality are effortlessly synchronized with unconflicted intent?

- Classic example: President Donald J. Trump's direct and unwavering path to the presidency.

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Vendetta
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Re: when lying is the right thing to do

Post by Vendetta » Sat May 27, 2017 11:59 am

Walker wrote:
Sat May 27, 2017 2:58 am
Vendetta wrote:
Sat May 27, 2017 1:01 am
This is an interesting perspective, and yes, in that sense you're right. But this can be applied to other situations in the world beyond cards where people can manipulate others for gain, without outright lying to them.
Is this any more ethical than lying?
By manipulation, do you mean manipulating energy so that imagination and reality are effortlessly synchronized with unconflicted intent?

- Classic example: President Donald J. Trump's direct and unwavering path to the presidency.
Yes. If one does this with a knowledge of the likelihood of a negative impact on others resulting from it, can it be considered ethical?

Walker
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Re: when lying is the right thing to do

Post by Walker » Sat May 27, 2017 12:36 pm

Vendetta wrote:
Sat May 27, 2017 11:59 am
Walker wrote:
Sat May 27, 2017 2:58 am
Vendetta wrote:
Sat May 27, 2017 1:01 am
This is an interesting perspective, and yes, in that sense you're right. But this can be applied to other situations in the world beyond cards where people can manipulate others for gain, without outright lying to them.
Is this any more ethical than lying?
By manipulation, do you mean manipulating energy so that imagination and reality are effortlessly synchronized with unconflicted intent?

- Classic example: President Donald J. Trump's direct and unwavering path to the presidency.
Yes. If one does this with a knowledge of the likelihood of a negative impact on others resulting from it, can it be considered ethical?
Your question is comical, in this sense.

“Separate any object, as a particular bodily man, a horse, a turnip, a flour-barrel, an umbrella, from the connection of things, and contemplate it alone, standing there in absolute nature, it becomes at once comic ; no useful, no respectable qualities can rescue it from the ludicrous.”
- Ralph W. Emerson

commonsense
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Re: when lying is the right thing to do

Post by commonsense » Sun May 28, 2017 12:17 am

Walker wrote:
Sat May 27, 2017 1:47 am
commonsense wrote:
Fri May 26, 2017 8:37 pm
I don't play poker.
There’s no manipulation in poker.
- Neither is there lying.
- How you act when looking at your cards is your business.
- How people interpret your actions while playing poker is their business.
- If you get some good cards and prance around like you love a parade, that’s just your thing.
- If you get some good cards and feel like parading around but don’t, no one says you must.
- Life is the measure and the situation of poker has a life until that game is over.
- The measure of poker is staying alive in the game.
- If you lose your chips, you won’t be alive in the game.
- Therefore, by the measure of life and not abstract notions of what defines lying, if you parade around in poker with a big smile on your face when you get a good hand because you have an abstract notion this is the way to be honest, and if you bet heavy only when you get a good hand because you think you're being honest according to this abstract notion that doesn't factor staying alive in the game, then you won’t be alive in the game for long. You will lose all your chips, and it will be because you didn’t understand the life of the situation.

I did not use poker as an example.

Walker wrote:
Sat May 27, 2017 1:47 am
If you're playing fish and your opponent says, "Do you have any four's (or whatever)," and you reply no, when in fact you do have a four, then in that case you are a liar, and a cheat.

You don't understand bluffing.

surreptitious57
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Re: when lying is the right thing to do

Post by surreptitious57 » Sun May 28, 2017 6:42 am

ken wrote:
I can not think of any examples when lying is the right thing to do
When it is necessary in order to prevent someone from being harmed

ken
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Re: when lying is the right thing to do

Post by ken » Sun May 28, 2017 7:49 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sun May 28, 2017 6:42 am
ken wrote:
I can not think of any examples when lying is the right thing to do
When it is necessary in order to prevent someone from being harmed
Could you provide any examples so that we could then take a look at them?

I have already stated that I can not think of any examples when lying is the right thing do to. That means I can not think of any examples when lying is necessary in order to prevent someone from being harmed.

I am very simple and sometimes I do not see what human beings see. That is I can not see, what it is that they see, until it is pointed out to Me.

surreptitious57
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Re: when lying is the right thing to do

Post by surreptitious57 » Sun May 28, 2017 9:18 am


The most famous one : do you tell the Gestapo that you are hiding Jews in your house [ the answer is obviously no ]

Walker
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Re: when lying is the right thing to do

Post by Walker » Sun May 28, 2017 11:25 am

commonsense wrote:
Sun May 28, 2017 12:17 am
You don't understand bluffing.
I called yours.

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