THE RELIGIONS – THEIR FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE

[Dontaskme]

It never ceases to amaze me how the word “Oneness” can make oblivion sound glorious and desirable.)

Oneness is not oblivion ....Oneness is this immediate Nowness in which everything is arising by itself.

Oneness or Beingness or Awareness or Life is just another way of describing this boundless infinite presence that is right here now. It's always THIS...and can never not be this. Nothing else is known other than this.

[Dontaskme]

Again, you are positing the absurd notion that “Pure awareness” (which, to me, sounds like a nebulous “field” of life energy) could somehow be directly and intentionally cognizant of something.

That's exactly what's happening, it's all an energetical informational feed back loop phenomena...similar to how TV's and Radios operate.

[Dontaskme]

Dam wrote:''And what happens to you? Nothing. You don't fall apart. You don't disappear.''

Correct. But a conclusion arrived-at through dubious means.

It also begs the question: do you - as an individualization of personal self-awareness - disappear at the moment of physical death?

If no, then non-duality is a non-starter because we will all continue to exist as individuals in a transcendent context.

If yes, then you are promulgating the nihilistic concept of our oblivion.

(Oh, I know, we will continue on as “Pure awareness.” Can't you see how nondescript and silly that sounds?)

I repeat, the ''you'' is Awareness, not the personal individual.

There is no individual personal you except the idea. The idea of you as an individual disappears... not the you as awareness. Awareness is unborn and cannot die.

Here it seems there are two you's....one is real the other is false...the real is the faceless mirror of awareness in which all reflections of it's unreal face appear.

There is no one in pure-awareness...it is the emptiness that contains everything ...it is empty and full at the same time inseparable dual and nondual.

How can that which is being everything forever be a nihilistic concept of our oblivion..?

The only annihilation going on here is the annihilation of the ego.

[Dontaskme]

Dam wrote: ''If there is no thought, can there be a mind?''

Yes.

The mind is just a temporal traveler passing though what is always permanently here... (infinity for eternity)

''The wild geese do not intend to cast their reflection,
The water has no mind to receive their image.''


''When a mountain stream flows out of a spring beside the road, and a thirsty traveler comes along and drinks deeply, the traveler is welcome. But the mountain stream is not waiting with the intention of refreshing thirsty travelers; it is just bubbling forth, and the travelers are always welcome to help themselves.''

[Dontaskme]

However, I personally believe that a wondrous eternal destiny awaits each of us - one that does not end with a re-absorption of our individual consciousness into some kind of homogenous state of “Oneness.”

I've heard some extremely bizarre statements about the ''nature of oneness'' - but this one I need to be sure I understand what you're saying with absolute clarity.

Please explain what you mean by the above statement?? ...don't just state an idea as true without allowing everyone reading it to be clear about what you are telling us.

[Lacewing]

However, I personally believe that a wondrous eternal destiny awaits each of us - one that does not end with a re-absorption of our individual consciousness into some kind of homogenous state of “Oneness.”

Why do you believe this? Is it primarily because it's what you want to believe?

Also... the concept of something being wondrous, is your HUMAN concept right now (correct?)... which is probably far from being vast enough to comprehend what merged energy is. When all of the human concepts and definitions and limitations are stripped away... completely... what might remain? To our way of thinking, how freeing and peaceful might that be? To have awareness and completeness without thoughts because there is no reason to have thoughts and to create agendas.

Thoughts and agendas, it seems to me, are of the physical realm only -- a realm of separates (not unity). Thoughts and agendas do not make sense for a realm of oneness. Which is why the idea of a god having thoughts and agendas, is (from my perspective) based on the separatism of man, rather than on oneness... and therefore such ideas about a god are a product of man.

[seeds]

However, I personally believe that a wondrous eternal destiny awaits each of us - one that does not end with a re-absorption of our individual consciousness into some kind of homogenous state of “Oneness.”

Please explain what you mean by the above statement?? ...don't just state an idea as true without allowing everyone reading it to be clear about what you are telling us.

Back in the late 60s early 70s I had some major spiritual epiphanies that allowed me to understand (or set me on a path to understanding) that each human mind is a replication of God’s mind and is in possession of the potential of literally being able to create a universe out of the subjective fabric of its own being.

As I stated to Nick_A in the “Futility of Reason” thread:

We are agents of consciousness who are imbued with the capability of creating holographic-like manifestations of “reality” within the closed and subjective arena of our own personal universe (our mind), just as God (our ultimate parent) has done with his mind.

And through the process of death we will be “delivered” (birthed) into a higher context of consciousness and existence (literally "outside" of this universe) in which God and our ultimate form (the exact same form as God) will be openly revealed to us.

To slightly paraphrase something I posited elsewhere:

In our second and final birth we will be leaving our physical bodies behind (like a cosmic version of “placental afterbirth”) and awaken into our true and ultimate form (again, the same form as God).

And if something as amazing as the human body can be thought of as being placental afterbirth - a glob of tissue to be discarded...



...then just imagine how wondrous our “true” and eternal form must be.

I cannot emphasize strongly enough the importance of visualizing how “natural” and “organic” our ultimate situation truly is.

(I elaborate on the above in the following posts to Lacewing.)
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[seeds]

However, I personally believe that a wondrous eternal destiny awaits each of us - one that does not end with a re-absorption of our individual consciousness into some kind of homogenous state of “Oneness.”

Why do you believe this? Is it primarily because it's what you want to believe?

Perhaps.

But it is also a belief that comes from putting the pieces of a grand philosophical puzzle together – pieces that range from quantum theory’s insinuation that reality is holographic-like in nature, to certain neurophysiology theories that, together, appear to be suggesting that the outer-workings of the universe seem to resemble the inner-workings of our minds.

Other pieces range from the implications of certain cosmological theories, to the study of dreams, to the varying concepts contained within the world’s religions (just to name a few), all of which must be viewed together as a whole in order to infer the greater picture.

Also... the concept of something being wondrous, is your HUMAN concept right now (correct?)...

Yes, of course.

But it is a concept (a belief) that exists in conjunction with some extremely profound and personal epiphanies that I experienced in my youth (as mentioned to Dam).

As I suggested to Dam, I believe that everything that we are experiencing right now – everything that seems so important to us while on earth...

(i.e., all of our physiological, psychological, sociological, and theological circumstances)

...is basically the metaphorical equivalent of “amniotic water” that will run down God’s leg when the “placenta” breaks.

And that (I believe) is how insignificant our present situation is compared to the transcendent situation that awaits us.

(And yes, I’m a big fan of metaphor.)

To view this from a slightly different perspective than what I proposed to Dam, have a look at this seed...



...and envision the hidden potential encapsulated within it.

Now just replace the image of the acorn above with the image of a human head...



…and then think of it as being the “ultimate seed” in all of existence (i.e., the literal seed of the universe) in the form of the infinite potential of the human mind and its singular agent, momentarily encapsulated within a tiny “husk” of matter.

Now if you take the obvious analogy of how “wondrous” the oak tree is compared to the acorn, then you will understand why I apply the word “wondrous” to what I believe will be our ultimate and eternal form.

(Continued in next post)
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[seeds]

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(Continued from prior post)

When all of the human concepts and definitions and limitations are stripped away... completely... what might remain?

What will remain is the realization that, by means of which none of us truly understand, we have individually been awakened into life on a "flying orb of reality" where we each await the resolution of the impenetrable mystery of what lies beyond the threshold of death.

And just as we had no control over our initial awakening into existence, likewise, we have no control over what our state of existence will be post-death.

In other words, it will be done for us - just as it was done for us at our inception.

That, to me, is what remains after all other concepts are stripped away.

To our way of thinking, how freeing and peaceful might that be? To have awareness and completeness without thoughts because there is no reason to have thoughts and to create agendas.

Just like Nick_A in the "Futility of Reason" thread, you seem to be viewing “thought” (mental imaging energy/mental holography) as being a problem for the mind. Whereas I view it (mental holography) as being a primary feature of the mind that will serve us throughout eternity as we develop our own universe out of the very fabric of thought itself.

As I stated in an alternate thread, as we stand on the earth and look out into the universe, we are viewing (from a “fetal” perspective) the extent to which thought (mental holography) can be manipulated.

Thoughts and agendas, it seems to me, are of the physical realm only -- a realm of separates (not unity).

I suggest that you are not fully apprehending what the so-called “physical realm” actually is.

As I offered to Greta in the “Futility of Reason” thread:

...physicists themselves have implied that matter is composed of a concentrated “light-like” substance consisting almost entirely of empty space, wherein its apparent “solidity and separateness” is created by the push and pull of electromagnetic forces.

In other words, our minds seem to be surrounded and encapsulated within amorphous fields of (illusion-creating) energy and information that, according to physicist Nick Herbert’s take on Heisenberg, are “...no more substantial than a promise...”

(From Herbert’s book, Quantum Reality: Beyond the New Physics)

In other words, Lacewing, what you think of as being the “physical realm” is an illusion taking place between our minds and that of the informationally-based energy essence through-which a higher mind (God’s mind) expresses itself.

Thoughts and agendas do not make sense for a realm of oneness. Which is why the idea of a god having thoughts and agendas, is (from my perspective) based on the separatism of man, rather than on oneness... and therefore such ideas about a god are a product of man.

Just as I suggested to Dam, the “oneness” that you are describing above, to me, seems to spell oblivion for our individual being and personal self-awareness. You and Dam are positing the very antithesis to the reason and effort that went into waking us into existence in the first place.

As far as I am concerned, there has been no separation of man from oneness.

There has merely been an eternal partitioning of the “oneness substance” (think Spinoza) into unique focalizations (bubbles) of personal self-awareness who are each capable of creating “reality” (within their bubble) out of the very essence from which they and the “oneness substance” itself are formed.
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[Dontaskme]

Thanks for all your replies and for taking time to explain yourself Seeds...much appreciated.

You appear to be saying the human mind is a replicate of gods mind.... And so I interpret what you've said... as being each individual mind is identically at one with one continuous whole energy that expresses itself as this universe. That we are the central mechanism by which god sees each one of us as an expression of what is basically the whole thing??


Is that what you are saying ? and if yes, then that's all I've been saying so I agree on that idea.

As for this quote...

And just as we had no control over our initial awakening into existence, likewise, we have no control over what our state of existence will be post-death.

Not sure what you are saying here..please could you elaborate what you mean by ''our state of existence post-death'' ??

Are you suggesting that the energy that is expressed as each individual human mind lives on after the death of physical body, if yes, how is that known and by whom is that known ? ...and surely if we are identical replicas of gods mind which is eternal without beginning or end, then what do you mean by post-death?

[Lacewing]

it is a concept (a belief) that exists in conjunction with some extremely profound and personal epiphanies that I experienced in my youth...

Thank you for your response.

A lot of people (including me) might say that their ideas have been formed by extremely profound and personal epiphanies and/or significant peak experiences. Yet, there are so many different ideas as a result of that. And still, most of these people will say that their ideas are UNIQUELY accurate and representative of ultimate truth. How is that possible?

And that (I believe) is how insignificant our present situation is compared to the transcendent situation that awaits us.

Well I agree that our present "reality" is insignificant. What I'm saying is that I don't think there is a situation awaiting us.

Now just replace the image of the acorn above with the image of a human head... and then think of it as being the “ultimate seed” in all of existence... /...in the form of the infinite potential of the human mind.../ ...Now if you take the obvious analogy of how “wondrous” the oak tree is compared to the acorn, then you will understand why I apply the word “wondrous” to what I believe will be our ultimate and eternal form.

I see what you're saying, and although I think the human mind has tremendously more potential than is being realized, I do not think the human mind has infinite potential, nor do I think it will lead us to our ultimate and eternal form -- not only because I don't think the human mind can do that, but also because I think there is NO ultimate and eternal form.

To use your analogy... the human mind is an acorn that can grow into a mighty oak. That's it. That is its function and potential. Nothing more. When you link it to infinite potential, that sounds like human ego is involved (and perhaps wanting to insist on its significance). Why not consider that these human "containers", which include these human "minds", are just for the potential of this reality and this vibration. I agree with you that we are more than this... but I think it's on an energetic level that transcends all human associations (which includes the human mind and thinking and understanding). It seems to me that there is so much more beyond this human vibration we are contained in, and our human minds are naturally limited and blind to the continually evolving frequencies which would surely fry our circuits and/or make our illusion impossible to sustain.

To me, linking the human mind with such evolving energetic vastness not only seems unnecessary for any useful understanding or purpose, but it seems unrealistic and imaginary.

I personally believe that a wondrous eternal destiny awaits each of us - one that does not end with a re-absorption of our individual consciousness into some kind of homogenous state of “Oneness.”

You say that second part like it's a bad thing. And I think that's because you might be applying human judgments to it. Also, why does there need to be a "destiny"? What is wrong with continually evolving creativity? Again, this idea of having a destiny sounds like a human need, based on human judgments of how things should be -- and perhaps the human desire to feel significance and purpose.

We are agents of consciousness who are imbued with the capability of creating holographic-like manifestations of “reality” within the closed and subjective arena of our own personal universe (our mind)

Possibly. That doesn't mean there is any permanence or significant linkage or agenda or destination. The human reality could be just ONE FORM of energy (of countless forms) moving around.

...just as God (our ultimate parent) has done with his mind.

This sounds fanciful to me.

And through the process of death we will be “delivered” (birthed) into a higher context of consciousness and existence (literally "outside" of this universe) in which God and our ultimate form (the exact same form as God) will be openly revealed to us.

This makes no sense to me. It all seems very human.

...then just imagine how wondrous our “true” and eternal form must be.

What is this need to imagine such a thing? Why is it important to imagine a "true and eternal form"? Is it man's attempt to identify himself as majestic beyond all of this? Why is that necessary?

Such thinking suggests to me an attitude that cannot love the glory of this moment. Taken to an extreme, it can seem disrespectful and even hateful. It is like saying, "I am not of THIS... I am of something more significant and wonderful... THIS is dark and evil... and what is BEYOND is light and holy." So without even realizing it, theists risk being the most hateful humans of all because of the way they renounce everything and focus beyond it. Would you do that to a beloved right in front of you? Where else is more important and "real" to look except at the beloved right in front of you?

I cannot emphasize strongly enough the importance of visualizing how “natural” and “organic” our ultimate situation truly is.

Yes, which is why it would surely continually evolve! It is not natural and organic to have a certain "situation".

And just as we had no control over our initial awakening into existence, likewise, we have no control over what our state of existence will be post-death.

In other words, it will be done for us - just as it was done for us at our inception.

I would say that nothing is being "done", and there is no one doing the "doing"... it's just naturally evolving and shifting. There is no thinking or agenda involved. There is no separate "is-ness" controlling all other "is-ness".

you seem to be viewing “thought” (mental imaging energy/mental holography) as being a problem for the mind.

No... I simply view human perception and ideas as limited, and unable to truly fathom anything beyond that. Imagination is wonderful: it is human artwork. Do you think a child drawing a sun on a piece of paper has any true concept of all the magnificence and nature of a real sun? That's how I view human thoughts and imagination. We can have fun imagining, but we can have no real clue beyond the limited tools and ideas that we use. Being an "adult" changes nothing about this.

In other words, Lacewing, what you think of as being the “physical realm” is an illusion taking place between our minds and that of the informationally-based energy essence...

Sure, I can see this! I simply use the terminology of a "physical realm" to reflect what humans believe it to be. I don't really think it's solid or real beyond my immediate illusion of it. The fact that humans view it as solid and significant, though, is exactly why humans allow that to mold their ideas of all ELSE that there is or must be.

...through-which a higher mind (God’s mind) expresses itself.

Again... to me, the concept of "mind" is a human concept. There doesn't need to be a bigger, higher, other mind. This is the fundamental difference between you and I, it seems... so we will never agree how everything else extends/evolves beyond that... but that's okay, it's interesting to share varying viewpoints.

the “oneness” that you are describing above, to me, seems to spell oblivion for our individual being and personal self-awareness.

Well, here's what I can say... There is nothing wrong with completeness. Separation is of the "physical" realm of forms. And humans like to think that their separateness is special.

You and Dam are positing the very antithesis to the reason and effort that went into waking us into existence in the first place.

I don't think there was a reason and effort. It's all just free-flowing artwork.

As far as I am concerned, there has been no separation of man from oneness.

Then why is there anywhere to "go" (such as an ultimate destiny)?

There has merely been an eternal partitioning of the “oneness substance” into unique focalizations (bubbles) of personal self-awareness who are each capable of creating “reality” (within their bubble) out of the very essence from which they and the “oneness substance” itself are formed.

Nice description. So why would there be any need for a "god" to inform all the bubbles of that which they are ALREADY made of? Why wouldn't the bubbles just keep bubbling along naturally from the oneness?

[Lacewing]

Here's how I feel about embracing and treating this earthly experience like a beloved... rather than looking for value beyond it...

From the book "I Heard God Laughing", the writings of Hafiz:

One regret, dear world,
That I am determined not to have
When I am lying on my deathbed
Is that I did not kiss you enough.

[seeds]

You appear to be saying the human mind is a replicate of gods mind.... And so I interpret what you've said... as being each individual mind is identically at one with one continuous whole energy that expresses itself as this universe. That we are the central mechanism by which god sees each one of us as an expression of what is basically the whole thing??

Is that what you are saying ?

You are running my ideas through the filter of your own belief system and are complicating the issue far more than is necessary.

All I am suggesting is that whatever it is that is born out of our body and literally out of the universe through the process of death, it will be a replication of whatever it is that God is – but not a literal replication of God (as in an exact copy).

What I mean is that just as we are a replication (in kind) of our human parents in this lower context of reality, likewise, we will be a replication (in kind) of our “spirit” parent, so to speak, in the higher (transcendent) context of reality.

I believe that the particular Creator of this particular universe (the Being to whom we refer to as “God”) represents the highest “species” of being to which life can ascend, and that we are each a family member of that species - momentarily residing “in utero” of said species.

Think of the Creator of this universe as being the fully-grown “adult” version of what we are momentarily the “seeds” of.

And here is a fanciful metaphor to help visualize that:



In which case, everything that we call “objective” reality...

(in other words, the sum total of the contents of the “closed bubble” of the universe of which our minds are momentarily held within)

...is all a physiological aspect of God’s “spirit body,” so to speak (I am of course referring to the closed dimension of God’s unfathomably advanced mind and mental holography).

(Many metaphysical concepts are implicit in the image above. For example, there is God’s “transcendent” form, yet there is also God's immediate and proximal “imminence” with respect to the seeds held within that form. Other examples are how the seeds are the literal “offspring” of God and created in God’s image. Or how God is closer to the seeds than the seeds are to each other, for they are each fabricated from God’s very being. Or the idea of how God is literally everything and everything is God. Or the notions central to Idealism, Panpsychism, and Panentheism, just to name a few.)

I know it’s difficult but, again, when it comes to “ultimate reality” try to think more in “natural,” “organic,” and “familial” terms.

(Continued in next post)
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[seeds]

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(Continued from prior post)

And just as we had no control over our initial awakening into existence, likewise, we have no control over what our state of existence will be post-death.

Not sure what you are saying here..please could you elaborate what you mean by ''our state of existence post-death'' ??

I am merely suggesting a “state of post-death existence” where we will each have an eternally evolving and “fruitful” purpose in which we are all individually capable of creating a universe out of the mental fabric of our very own being, just as the Creator of this universe has done.

And the point that I was trying to make in the quote you cited, is that it is already a “done deal” for us (no ifs ands or buts).

I truly believe that our ultimate form and eternal destiny is absolutely equal for every human ever awakened into life, and that no one will be sorry once the extent of this amazing gift is realized.

Are you suggesting that the energy that is expressed as each individual human mind lives on after the death of physical body...

Of course that is what I am suggesting.

...if yes, how is that known and by whom is that known ?

It’s all just “best guesses,” Dam, based on what we have to work with.

To slightly paraphrase something I’ve written elsewhere...

If eternal life is a possibility, then we must have something “logical” and “purposeful” to do to occupy our time, in which case, the creation and maintenance of a universe seems like the only thing that could even remotely fill the void of endless existence.

It will be the ultimate glorious expression of our own inward creative potential that will eventually culminate in the ability to eternally pass on life to others in the same way that we received it.

...and surely if we are identical replicas of gods mind which is eternal without beginning or end...

Hold it right there.

You are operating under the influence of the dubious assumptions established in what I call the “old paradigm” of ideas and thinking.

I do not believe that the Creator of this particular universe is without a beginning.

I personally believe that the Creator of this universe began in pretty much the same way that we began - in an ongoing process that no doubt extends as far back as eternity itself.

Here's a little quote from the book: Cosmic Coincidences: Dark Matter, Mankind, and Anthropic Cosmology by John Gribbin and Martin Rees:

“Quantum cosmology allows the possibility of creating not just one universe but an infinite number of universes out of nothing at all. The universes may be inter-connected in some complex way, as new universes are born within, but then pinch off from the vacuum of old universes, producing a complex multidimensional foam. Our universe may simply be a region of space-time that has pinched off from another bubble.”

(Bolding/underline mine)

Now just add life and consciousness to the “bubbles” posited in the quote above and you have exactly what I have been suggesting (see an illustration I created to help visualize the “multidimensional foam” mentioned above: http://theultimateseeds.com/bubbles.htm)

Unfortunately, just as an “alpha” universe is implied in the above quote (from which all other universes sprang-forth), likewise, an alpha Creator is implied in my theory (both of which are utterly impossible to fathom or explain).

(Here is another drawing that I created to kind of summarize the ideas I am proposing: http://theultimateseeds.com/summary.htm)
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[Walker]

Notice the asymmetry of the face, particularly the mouth which connects the mind as thought to the ears of the world.

Asymmetry requires imbalance.

Movement to balance is the cause of all movement in the universe big and small, galaxies and electrons. Balance happens when movement pauses. Any movement in the universe requires imbalance moving towards balance, and then again away from balance. Even the Buddha perceived by man requires imbalance to move.

The acorn is symmetrical. It is balanced and still until forces cause imbalance and movement. Sunlight, water, being buried by a squirrel, all forces triggering movement towards tree, but not towards human.

Bonobo - All In Forms
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaBPueM ... pq&index=8