Who Really is an Atheist?

[Nick_A]

Nothing changes. Both Hobbes and sthit deny the existence of God. They only have two choices: belief and denial. "I don't know" is not a position they can take. Then to make matters worse, by denying the existence of God they are denying a being within creation subject to the laws of existence. God IS. Existence is a PROCESS taking place within IS. So we both do not believe God exists and yet these blind deniers insist on making that point. Their minds remain closed to contemplating the relationship between what IS and PROCESS of EXISTENCE.

[Walker]

Re: Destruction, the Core of Atheism


Japan then and now.

Destroyed … Created … Preserved … Threatened

Atheism is part of reality.
At most a quarter of reality, by the above reckoning.

[sthitapragya]

Nothing changes. Both Hobbes and sthit deny the existence of God. They only have two choices: belief and denial. "I don't know" is not a position they can take. Then to make matters worse, by denying the existence of God they are denying a being within creation subject to the laws of existence. God IS. Existence is a PROCESS taking place within IS. So we both do not believe God exists and yet these blind deniers insist on making that point. Their minds remain closed to contemplating the relationship between what IS and PROCESS of EXISTENCE.

Oh, so allegations when you have no answer.

And how can anything change? You never reply to any question that challenges you. You run away and start something new. If you want me to change, prove or convince me that you God exists.

I already told you that I have no problems if I find out that God exists tomorrow. Today there is no evidence of his existence.

How do we make matters worse by denying the existence of God? What changes in reality? The existence or nonexistence of God has nothing to do with reality. God is purely academic. He has no bearing on reality.

God isn't. Existence is a process taking place.

Woah. You both do not believe God exists?? Kindly elaborate...

[sthitapragya]

Re: Destruction, the Core of Atheism


Japan then and now.

Destroyed … Created … Preserved … Threatened

Atheism is part of reality.
At most a quarter of reality, by the above reckoning.

Japan was attacked by Harry S Truman if I am not mistaken and he was a Baptist. Without his orders no bombs could be dropped on Japan. So if you are playing this sick card, it was a theist responsible for the destruction, you sick little chihuahua. And shame on you. And for the record, I don't blame Theists for the destruction like little chihuahua blames atheists for everything. Circumstances can make men do anything, irrespective of their religious beliefs. We are animals after all.

But most of us are bigger than little chihuahua, who has been a disappointment. Do you have problems with people of different races too?

[Lacewing]

Sthitapragya... from what I have seen with most theists I've interacted with (and I grew up in the church too), there is no amount of logic/reason/examples that will show them how well people and life function without a god. (You couldn't have convinced me when I was in the church.) Such insight goes against the whole reason theists are believing as they do, which they believe is absolute AND which makes them feel that they're being good and right. For them, there simply cannot be the same (or greater) goodness and rightness for anyone or anything WITHOUT that idea of god. Else, what's the necessity for having a god?

And of course it is astounding what people can refuse to see in order to protect their beliefs. I remember getting to the point in my religious experience of feeling an almost feverish desperation for things to be as the church was saying they were. I had to keep taking "the pill" or I couldn't keep walking into that environment every week. I could not turn out to be a fake... so it HAD TO be real! I'm embarrassed now how hard I worked at it... but I recognize that my heart was in the right place, and I was under a lot of pressure and expectation from those around me, and within that, I just couldn't imagine beyond it, even though there was much that didn't feel true. That's how the experience was for me. Ultimately, I found greater truth and wisdom when I dropped all of it.

I have seen a lot of authentic and wise theists... and I'm guessing their paths really resonate for them, and that's wonderful. These are the people who can appreciate all the beauty in my non-theist life too. Still, they can't help but wish that I "know Jesus" (ha)... which I think is just an unavoidable part of that mindset. Everybody MUST know Jesus! It's sad, in that way... because the truth is that we are all complete spirits without needing to do anything in particular. To think that we are incomplete and defective wretches reveals such an ugly mindset toward humanity. Theism has actually caused most of the destruction and hatred ravaging humankind. I think it would be very interesting one day if we come to see how religion is actually what we destroyed ourselves with, while non-theists were authentically and bravely trying to move beyond it. It would be a profound irony... which is how the human world often seems to work!

[Skip]

And then, of course, there is a the majority of people, who sort-of believe in whatever god they were brought up with, but don't waste time and energy fretting about him. They practice the bits of their religion that suit them, ignore the rest, get on with their own lives and don't bug other people about what they believe.

[uwot]

It's confirmation anxiety I tells yer.

[Hobbes' Choice]

Re: Destruction, the Core of Atheism


Japan then and now.

Destroyed … Created … Preserved … Threatened

Atheism is part of reality.
At most a quarter of reality, by the above reckoning.

What on earth has any of that to do with Atheism, except that peaceful modern Japan is more atheistic now that at any time in history.

Japan was destroyed because Theists believing their Emperor was God in Earth, and were able to rule the world.

Now the new Theists in the White House have pretty much the same delusion.

[sthitapragya]

. I think it would be very interesting one day if we come to see how religion is actually what we destroyed ourselves with...

Well, religion has always been about fear and control. It's just too bad that most people don't see it. When we had no sophisticated systems in place like the judiciary, the executive and the legislature, the best way to control people was put the fear of God in them. It probably worked to some extent and then someone realized the power that was inherent in claiming to be a representative of God. And after that the ways of putting the fear of God in people just kept on getting more sophisticated and the powers of the people in charge kept on growing. Add to that the inherent need of a father figure in everyone, and the control was complete. It is not something that is going away easily. There even might be some Stockholm syndrome involved. The complexity of the relationship is the problem.

[Dalek Prime]

. I think it would be very interesting one day if we come to see how religion is actually what we destroyed ourselves with...

Well, religion has always been about fear and control. It's just too bad that most people don't see it. When we had no sophisticated systems in place like the judiciary, the executive and the legislature, the best way to control people was put the fear of God in them. It probably worked to some extent and then someone realized the power that was inherent in claiming to be a representative of God. And after that the ways of putting the fear of God in people just kept on getting more sophisticated and the powers of the people in charge kept on growing. Add to that the inherent need of a father figure in everyone, and the control was complete. It is not something that is going away easily. There even might be some Stockholm syndrome involved. The complexity of the relationship is the problem.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=15568

[Nick_A]

Lacewing wrote: Sthitapragya... from what I have seen with most theists I've interacted with (and I grew up in the church too), there is no amount of logic/reason/examples that will show them how well people and life function without a god. (You couldn't have convinced me when I was in the church.) Such insight goes against the whole reason theists are believing as they do, which they believe is absolute AND which makes them feel that they're being good and right. For them, there simply cannot be the same (or greater) goodness and rightness for anyone or anything WITHOUT that idea of god. Else, what's the necessity for having a god?

Would you agree that Simone Weil’s observation is accurate? If it is, do you agree that the atheist may be far more balanced in society but missing something necessary for those in the quest for "human meaning and purpose.”

“Religion in so far as it is a source of consolation is a hindrance to true faith; and in this sense atheism is a purification. I have to be an atheist with that part of myself which is not made for God. Among those in whom the supernatural part of themselves has not been awakened, the atheists are right and the believers wrong.”
- Simone Weil, Faiths of Meditation; Contemplation of the divine
the Simone Weil Reader, edited by George A. Panichas (David McKay Co. NY

[sthitapragya]

“ Among those in whom the supernatural part of themselves has not been awakened, the atheists are right and the believers wrong.”
- Simone Weil, Faiths of Meditation; Contemplation of the divine
the Simone Weil Reader, edited by George A. Panichas (David McKay Co. NY

Both you and Simone Weil have the same psychological issue. Both of you play the "when I lose at an argument, I can see something you cannot because I am special" card.

For you, God is not only something that provides meaning and purpose to life, the belief that you can "see" him when lesser mortals cannot, makes you special. You have no option but to cling on to this belief because without God, you stop being special. Just look at the sentence again. Simone is talking about "supernatural" powers that have been bestowed upon you and you have eagerly grasped it with both hands.

What you need to do is, stop the blind following syndrome you have. First, God. Now, Simone. Find yourself. You won't need either God or Simone and you definitely will not need to have supernatural powers to feel special.

Oh, and read science. Lots and lots of it. I have a tough time understanding it, but give it enough time and effort and you start understanding a lot and God just becomes more and more redundant.

"A mystic is someone who wants to understand the universe, but is too lazy to study physics." - Anonymous

[marjoram_blues]

It's confirmation anxiety I tells yer.

Define that again.

[Hobbes' Choice]

“ Among those in whom the supernatural part of themselves has not been awakened, the atheists are right and the believers wrong.”
- Simone Weil, Faiths of Meditation; Contemplation of the divine
the Simone Weil Reader, edited by George A. Panichas (David McKay Co. NY

Both you and Simone Weil have the same psychological issue. Both of you play the "when I lose at an argument, I can see something you cannot because I am special" card.

For you, God is not only something that provides meaning and purpose to life, the belief that you can "see" him when lesser mortals cannot, makes you special. You have no option but to cling on to this belief because without God, you stop being special. Just look at the sentence again. Simone is talking about "supernatural" powers that have been bestowed upon you and you have eagerly grasped it with both hands.

What you need to do is, stop the blind following syndrome you have. First, God. Now, Simone. Find yourself. You won't need either God or Simone and you definitely will not need to have supernatural powers to feel special.

Oh, and read science. Lots and lots of it. I have a tough time understanding it, but give it enough time and effort and you start understanding a lot and God just becomes more and more redundant.

"A mystic is someone who wants to understand the universe, but is too lazy to study physics." - Anonymous

Good analysis.

[Walker]

Nothing like unsolicited advice of what another should do, though mindless echoes are similar.

There’s surely no shortage of folks feeling special about themselves and assuming the literary mantel of authority via shithouse psychology, that’s for dang sure, how bout it, haw haw.

Would you agree that Simone Weil’s observation is accurate? If it is, do you agree that the atheist may be far more balanced in society but missing something necessary for those in the quest for "human meaning and purpose.”

“Religion in so far as it is a source of consolation is a hindrance to true faith; and in this sense atheism is a purification. I have to be an atheist with that part of myself which is not made for God. Among those in whom the supernatural part of themselves has not been awakened, the atheists are right and the believers wrong.”
- Simone Weil, Faiths of Meditation; Contemplation of the divine
the Simone Weil Reader, edited by George A. Panichas (David McKay Co. NY

Among those in whom the supernatural part of themselves has not been awakened,...

Obviously supernatural in Weil's context merely refers to the unknown.

Reality check for atheism:

Using the societal definition that reality is, "something that is neither derivative nor dependent but exists necessarily", we can then say that,

Because atheism is derived from theism, therefore atheism exists necessarily but is not reality; not for lack of evidence but because atheism is derivative, atheism is dependent upon, atheism is (whisper) reactionary. The question is, can this mean anything other than atheists are walking, talking delusions and if so, what? Derivatives what of does not exist?

Most illogical.