I am Jean

Lusia Mousky · Post by **Lusia Mousky** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:40 pm

I suppose that I use the word "manipulation" in a slightly different way.
It implies for me some secret intention and a manipulation is only successeful if the person manipulated does not realize completely what is going on. Otherwise there would be just attempted manipulation.

Example: If I call Mr. X James Bond, and we both know that it is a sweet joke and not any irony or anything else, and if I do not do it in order to ask him a favor five minutes later, then this is NOT manipulation.
If there are some strings attached, then it IS manipulation.

Anything we say or do has some effect and thus has some influence. But it is not enough for me to call it manipulation.

artisticsolution · Post by **artisticsolution** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:30 pm

Lusia Mousky wrote:I suppose that I use the word "manipulation" in a slightly different way.
It implies for me some secret intention and a manipulation is only successeful if the person manipulated does not realize completely what is going on. Otherwise there would be just attempted manipulation.

Example: If I call Mr. X James Bond, and we both know that it is a sweet joke and not any irony or anything else, and if I do not do it in order to ask him a favor five minutes later, then this is NOT manipulation.
If there are some strings attached, then it IS manipulation.

Anything we say or do has some effect and thus has some influence. But it is not enough for me to call it manipulation.

Oh well then in that case I am a huge manipulator! My husband always knows when I am looking for approval for something I have my mind set upon. I walk over to him with this innocent little girl voice, wrap my arms around his neck and sweetly purr...."honey?" He always replies, "where are you going this time?" In a tone that not only tells me he thinks I am adorable and approves of my choices in life but also recognizes that he is being manipulated and enjoys the hell out of it! I don't see anything wrong with it...it's better than being demanding and unwavering. There is a sweetness of communication and understanding if both parties have an understanding. Oh sure, I suppose I could say, "I am going on a vacation and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it!" But harsh reality puts a damper on romance, I would much rather use seductive manipulation. I won't apologize for it and I am lucky to have found a man who enjoys that side of my personality!

Lusia Mousky · Post by **Lusia Mousky** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:49 pm

What you describe I would call pseudo-manipulation because it is overt and your husband knows very well what is going on. It is a decorative, creative, indirect way of expressing a wish.

Manipulation only takes place if the person manipulated later on feels duped because he realizes that he did not have the whole picture at the time he was being manipulated. And that is why he feels bitter and deceived, cheap and used, when he finaly does see the whole picture.

mickthinks · Post by **mickthinks** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:27 pm

Just to say I am with you on this issue, Lusia.

Lusia Mousky · Post by **Lusia Mousky** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:41 pm

Thank you Mick.

Maybe one could use Kant´s ideas to express the difference:

If you truly manipulate someone you use him as means to some end.

And you should never use anyone as means to some end, according to Kant´s moral law. That is why I reject manipulation.

But if you communicate and negotiate with some other person in an "artistic" way, using metaphores, surprises, ironies, jokes, comedy, tragedy, persiflage etc. etc. and this other person is a partner, a subject, an equal, then this is all right.

Arising_uk · Post by **Arising_uk** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:52 pm

Lusia Mousky wrote:... has become so scary that the prospect of a home with an older sister or even a grand ma, reliable and sensible, is what they need.

Lusia Mousky · Post by **Lusia Mousky** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:00 pm

Anyone who needs Prozac falls into this category, Mr. Arising.

But not you, of course, you are a self-sufficient hero, like the god Ra, arising and going down again.

Jean · Post by **Jean** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:09 pm

Duncan,

I'll think about calling you. But I'm uncertain if you are a psycho. Rather, a dangerous psycho. I'm not sure I can trust you. Is this a scam to get me into your chair and bill me -- or eat me? And what do I get out of this, is this a charity call?

Duncan Butlin · Post by **Duncan Butlin** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:04 pm

My dear Jean,

Whatever are you frightened of? I only offered to speak to you over the phone because you questioned my identity (on my ‘Ladies and Gentlemen’ thread), and I thought we might be able to sort things out better in real time. Please don’t call if you are worried, though what you imagine I can do to you over the phone, boggles my mind. Surely the worst I can do is shout? And then you can simply hang up? I would suggest you are far less subject to manipulation talking on the phone, than when we correspond on the forum.

I offered to talk for your own benefit, as well as mine, so please make up your own mind, one way or the other.

Arising_uk · Post by **Arising_uk** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:43 pm

Lusia Mousky wrote:But not you, of course, you are a self-sufficient hero, like the god Ra, arising and going down again.

Absolutely

The sun goes up, and down, and up, and down,... you could smooth its path with many things and self-medication can be one of them, after all god invented alcohol but it'll still keep going up, and down, and up, and down,...

Life eh! Who wants it?
a_uk

Arising_uk · Post by **Arising_uk** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:46 pm

Jean wrote:Duncan,
I'll think about calling you. But I'm uncertain if you are a psycho. Rather, a dangerous psycho. I'm not sure I can trust you. Is this a scam to get me into your chair and bill me -- or eat me? And what do I get out of this, is this a charity call?

And to Mr Butlins credit I think its this 'fear' in the modern world that Mr Butlin wishes to dispel. Although I still disagree with his solution.
a_Uk