Womyn and Philosophy

Anything to do with gender and the status of women and men.

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Gary Childress
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Womyn and Philosophy

Post by Gary Childress » Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:34 am

By and large philosophy may often seem like a discipline dominated by males. This has historically been the case and according to a study I saw on Ph.Ds awarded to women in the US during the year 2009 only about 30% of Ph.Ds in philosophy were awarded to women. Among the various disciplines featured in the study, this put Philosophy just above disciplines such as Engineering, Computer Science and Physics, which had fewer, in contrast to disciplines such as Psychology and English Literature which topped the scale at about 70%.

http://kieranhealy.or...¬

By contrast, 2009 apparently saw a greater number of Ph.Ds awarded to women overall than men.

http://www.washington...¬

This seems to beg a question of what is it about philosophy that has thus far lead to such skewed results.

Philosophy is often defined as the love of wisdom. Studying philosophy must therefore have something to do with studying wisdom. Wisdom is generally considered to be a trait of great benefit in a human being (surely regardless of gender). If this is the case, then I see at least a few possibilities here.

1. Those who study philosophy do so because they lack the object of their study, namely, those that study philosophy seek wisdom because they do not currently possess it. Perhaps philosophy may then be seen as a stepping stone to other things, and those who study other things already possess wisdom and therefore have no need to study philosophy. Therefore perhaps women are typically wiser than men and therefore have little need to study wisdom, whereas men have more need to study what they lack.
2. Those who study philosophy are more interested in wisdom than those who do not because not everyone values wisdom equally. Therefore women do not value wisdom as highly as men do.
3. Women value wisdom equally (or greater) to men but Philosophy is a discipline that is particularly either more difficult for women than men for whatever reason (including either possible prejudice in the field or else a deficiency in women’s ability to study wisdom) or else less attractive to women for similar reasons.
4. Philosophy as studied in an academic setting is not the study of wisdom and therefore the data tells us nothing about the relative value of wisdom to either males or females.
5. A combination of any or all of the above.
6. Some other option(s) I am missing…

So, lady and gentleman philosophers, which do you believe is the case, if any of the above? What are your thoughts on the matter? Please don’t be shy to respond. We are all philosophers here in some sense because we bother to post in a philosophy forum. And as philosophers we are committed to truth, no matter how inconvenient or unappealing truth may be to either ourselves or others around us who are ignorant of it. I would especially love to hear from some of our female philosophers here about your own experiences with philosophy. In your first-hand experience, what would you most likely credit as the reason(s) for the discrepancy cited above? Are there any possibilities I have missed?

Impenitent
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Re: Womyn and Philosophy

Post by Impenitent » Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:58 am

6. a philosophy degree is a primer for a law degree in most cases

-Imp

Melchior
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Re: Womyn and Philosophy

Post by Melchior » Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:14 am

Gary Childress wrote:By and large philosophy may often seem like a discipline dominated by males. This has historically been the case and according to a study I saw on Ph.Ds awarded to women in the US during the year 2009 only about 30% of Ph.Ds in philosophy were awarded to women. Among the various disciplines featured in the study, this put Philosophy just above disciplines such as Engineering, Computer Science and Physics, which had fewer, in contrast to disciplines such as Psychology and English Literature which topped the scale at about 70%.

http://kieranhealy.or...¬

By contrast, 2009 apparently saw a greater number of Ph.Ds awarded to women overall than men.

http://www.washington...¬

This seems to beg a question of what is it about philosophy that has thus far lead to such skewed results.

Philosophy is often defined as the love of wisdom. Studying philosophy must therefore have something to do with studying wisdom. Wisdom is generally considered to be a trait of great benefit in a human being (surely regardless of gender). If this is the case, then I see at least a few possibilities here.

1. Those who study philosophy do so because they lack the object of their study, namely, those that study philosophy seek wisdom because they do not currently possess it. Perhaps philosophy may then be seen as a stepping stone to other things, and those who study other things already possess wisdom and therefore have no need to study philosophy. Therefore perhaps women are typically wiser than men and therefore have little need to study wisdom, whereas men have more need to study what they lack.
2. Those who study philosophy are more interested in wisdom than those who do not because not everyone values wisdom equally. Therefore women do not value wisdom as highly as men do.
3. Women value wisdom equally (or greater) to men but Philosophy is a discipline that is particularly either more difficult for women than men for whatever reason (including either possible prejudice in the field or else a deficiency in women’s ability to study wisdom) or else less attractive to women for similar reasons.
4. Philosophy as studied in an academic setting is not the study of wisdom and therefore the data tells us nothing about the relative value of wisdom to either males or females.
5. A combination of any or all of the above.
6. Some other option(s) I am missing…

So, lady and gentleman philosophers, which do you believe is the case, if any of the above? What are your thoughts on the matter? Please don’t be shy to respond. We are all philosophers here in some sense because we bother to post in a philosophy forum. And as philosophers we are committed to truth, no matter how inconvenient or unappealing truth may be to either ourselves or others around us who are ignorant of it. I would especially love to hear from some of our female philosophers here about your own experiences with philosophy. In your first-hand experience, what would you most likely credit as the reason(s) for the discrepancy cited above? Are there any possibilities I have missed?
You're asking this with a straight face? :shock:

This isn't particularly difficult:

1) You misspelled 'women'.

2) Philosophy requires intellectual prowess, which men possess to a greater degree than women.
Last edited by Melchior on Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: Womyn and Philosophy

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:16 am

.

6.1 a philosophy degree is a primer for a coffee barista in most cases

- Bill Wiltrack





.

Melchior
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Re: Womyn and Philosophy

Post by Melchior » Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:22 am

Bill Wiltrack wrote:.

6.1 a philosophy degree is a primer for a coffee barista in most cases

- Bill Wiltrack


.
'How to live under a bridge' is a typical thesis.

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Gary Childress
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Re: Womyn and Philosophy

Post by Gary Childress » Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:07 am

No serious replies yet? I'll be patient. :)

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Re: Womyn and Philosophy

Post by Melchior » Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:34 pm

Gary Childress wrote:No serious replies yet? I'll be patient. :)
I provided a serious reply. You ignored it. Since you asked a stupid question, don't complain.

This isn't particularly difficult:

1) You misspelled 'women'.

2) Philosophy requires intellectual prowess, which men possess to a greater degree than women.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differ ... telligence

"The mean IQ scores between men and women vary little. The variability of male scores is greater than that of females, however, resulting in more males than females in the top and bottom of the IQ distribution"

This means that the most intelligent people are men.

You seem to have been left out. Maybe you're one at the other end of the spectrum.

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Re: Womyn and Philosophy

Post by duszek » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:06 pm

1. Women earn less money and therefore prefer to study something more practical with which they can get a job.

2. If you are rich then you can study philosophy, but even then literature for example is more attractive to women because they like to include emotions, intuition and psychology.

Best of
Do Sheck

P.S. Did you study philosophy Gary ? Can you earn your living and that of your family if you have one ? Then you are lucky.

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Gary Childress
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Re: Womyn and Philosophy

Post by Gary Childress » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:26 am

Melchior wrote:
Gary Childress wrote:No serious replies yet? I'll be patient. :)
I provided a serious reply. You ignored it. Since you asked a stupid question, don't complain.

This isn't particularly difficult:

1) You misspelled 'women'.

2) Philosophy requires intellectual prowess, which men possess to a greater degree than women.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differ ... telligence

"The mean IQ scores between men and women vary little. The variability of male scores is greater than that of females, however, resulting in more males than females in the top and bottom of the IQ distribution"

This means that the most intelligent people are men.

You seem to have been left out. Maybe you're one at the other end of the spectrum.
By "serious" I guess I was expecting a more thoughtful reply from a philosopher. I had thought it would be pretty obvious that I intentionally spelled womyn the way I did. I mean surely there are other forums for those who wish to be standup comedians or pranksters? But this is intended to be a philosophy forum so I usually tend to expect a better caliber of dialogue I guess.

However, since your reply was apparently a serious one (or your best approximation of one)...is it necessarily the case that only extremely intelligent people study philosophy any more so than other disciplines? Apparently women do fine in linguistics, neuroscience, molecular biology and psychology (for example) according to the statistics I pointed to. Aren't those disciplines also ones that require considerable intellectual prowess to excel in?

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Gary Childress
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Re: Womyn and Philosophy

Post by Gary Childress » Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:43 am

duszek wrote:1. Women earn less money and therefore prefer to study something more practical with which they can get a job.

2. If you are rich then you can study philosophy, but even then literature for example is more attractive to women because they like to include emotions, intuition and psychology.

Best of
Do Sheck

P.S. Did you study philosophy Gary ? Can you earn your living and that of your family if you have one ? Then you are lucky.
#1 is a good point, especially considering how many single mothers there are out there in our society. But even so, I would think those who are most looking for strictly career promoting disciplines would concentrate toward more vocational studies. I typically don't think of linguistics, psychology, molecular biology and things like that as "vocational". Women seem to be doing fine in those areas. Point #2 is perhaps interesting that you bring up emotions and intuition. It is sort of the common view that women tend to be more emotional than men and philosophy of course has always seemed to place a low regard on emotions. So maybe that's a factor.

Regarding your last question I did (and occasionally still do) study philosophy. I don't have a family to support and haven't been a great success career-wise. It's sort of interesting that philosophy does seem to go hand in hand with some degree of asceticism in many ways. Again, this would seem to be largely counter to the requirements for raising and nurturing children (extra mouths to feed). So perhaps you make a good point regarding women seeking more practical studies.
Last edited by Gary Childress on Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

Melchior
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Re: Womyn and Philosophy

Post by Melchior » Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:44 am

Gary Childress wrote:
By "serious" I guess I was expecting a more thoughtful reply from a philosopher. I had thought it would be pretty obvious that I intentionally spelled womyn the way I did. I mean surely there are other forums for those who wish to be standup comedians or pranksters? But this is intended to be a philosophy forum so I usually tend to expect a better caliber of dialogue I guess.

However, since your reply was apparently a serious one (or your best approximation of one)...is it necessarily the case that only extremely intelligent people study philosophy any more so than other disciplines? Apparently women do fine in linguistics, neuroscience, molecular biology and psychology (for example) according to the statistics I pointed to. Aren't those disciplines also ones that require considerable intellectual prowess to excel in?

Your misspelling was noted, as mere trendy imbecility. The rest of your posts are worthless leftist drivel. Most female academics are sheep who follow the trends set by men (for better or worse). The only novelties are those introduced by feminism, which is itself derivative. It's merely Marxism with the word 'class' crossed out and the word 'sex' written in in crayon. They didn't have the proper form.

https://youtu.be/nmyHup4TpkU

There are women in philosophy, but their work is always second-rate. Always. Women philosophers always rely on some ideology or other in interpretation. They make Nietzsche out to be a socialist or feminist. The absurdity of such attempts is beyond the pale.
I have no idea what you are trying to accomplish here, but you are obviously unqualified to discuss philosophical topics intelligently. Go away. 'Why there are not more women in philosophy' is not a philosophical question. Duh.

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Gary Childress
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Re: Womyn and Philosophy

Post by Gary Childress » Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:04 am

Melchior wrote:
Gary Childress wrote:
By "serious" I guess I was expecting a more thoughtful reply from a philosopher. I had thought it would be pretty obvious that I intentionally spelled womyn the way I did. I mean surely there are other forums for those who wish to be standup comedians or pranksters? But this is intended to be a philosophy forum so I usually tend to expect a better caliber of dialogue I guess.

However, since your reply was apparently a serious one (or your best approximation of one)...is it necessarily the case that only extremely intelligent people study philosophy any more so than other disciplines? Apparently women do fine in linguistics, neuroscience, molecular biology and psychology (for example) according to the statistics I pointed to. Aren't those disciplines also ones that require considerable intellectual prowess to excel in?

Your misspelling was noted, as mere trendy imbecility. The rest of your posts are worthless leftist drivel. Most female academics are sheep who follow the trends set by men (for better or worse). The only novelties are those introduced by feminism, which is itself derivative. It's merely Marxism with the word 'class' crossed out and the word 'sex' written in in crayon. They didn't have the proper form.

https://youtu.be/nmyHup4TpkU

There are women in philosophy, but their work is always second-rate. Always. Women philosophers always rely on some ideology or other in interpretation. They make Nietzsche out to be a socialist or feminist. The absurdity of such attempts is beyond the pale.
I have no idea what you are trying to accomplish here, but you are obviously unqualified to discuss philosophical topics intelligently. Go away.
:lol:

So what's got you so down on women? I'm curious now. Surely things can't be all that bad? I mean I've had times where I was pretty disgruntled with women (so I understand the feeling) but I've looked back over the years and thought better of it now.

And I apologize for the remark about your initial reply not being "serious". I see now that it was "serious".

In any case, slinging mud at each other is probably not going to get us anywhere we should really want to be. Clearly you are a very capable individual and I should treat you with the respect you deserve. However, I do think that you are being harsh on women where harshness is not really needed. I don't think philosophy needs to necessarily be a rat race to be "top philosopher". But again, I understand the sentiment. I've been there myself but age is beginning to mellow me out a bit I think.

Melchior
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Re: Womyn and Philosophy

Post by Melchior » Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:12 am

Gary Childress wrote:
Melchior wrote:
Gary Childress wrote:
By "serious" I guess I was expecting a more thoughtful reply from a philosopher. I had thought it would be pretty obvious that I intentionally spelled womyn the way I did. I mean surely there are other forums for those who wish to be standup comedians or pranksters? But this is intended to be a philosophy forum so I usually tend to expect a better caliber of dialogue I guess.

However, since your reply was apparently a serious one (or your best approximation of one)...is it necessarily the case that only extremely intelligent people study philosophy any more so than other disciplines? Apparently women do fine in linguistics, neuroscience, molecular biology and psychology (for example) according to the statistics I pointed to. Aren't those disciplines also ones that require considerable intellectual prowess to excel in?

Your misspelling was noted, as mere trendy imbecility. The rest of your posts are worthless leftist drivel. Most female academics are sheep who follow the trends set by men (for better or worse). The only novelties are those introduced by feminism, which is itself derivative. It's merely Marxism with the word 'class' crossed out and the word 'sex' written in in crayon. They didn't have the proper form.

https://youtu.be/nmyHup4TpkU

There are women in philosophy, but their work is always second-rate. Always. Women philosophers always rely on some ideology or other in interpretation. They make Nietzsche out to be a socialist or feminist. The absurdity of such attempts is beyond the pale.
I have no idea what you are trying to accomplish here, but you are obviously unqualified to discuss philosophical topics intelligently. Go away.
:lol:

So what's got you so down on women? I'm curious now. Surely things can't be all that bad? I mean I've had times where I was pretty disgruntled with women (so I understand the feeling) but I've looked back over the years and thought better of it now.

And I apologize for the remark about your initial reply not being "serious". I see now that it was "serious".

In any case, slinging mud at each other is probably not going to get us anywhere we should really want to be. Clearly you are a very capable individual and I should treat you with the respect you deserve. However, I do think that you are being harsh on women where harshness is not really needed. I don't think philosophy needs to necessarily be a rat race to be "top philosopher". But again, I understand the sentiment. I've been there myself but age is beginning to mellow me out a bit I think.

Nothing has got me down on women. I have dealt with female academics and it has been generally a very frustrating experience. One expressed concerns about my usage of 'men' for Menschen, etc. in translations of Nietzsche which I had sent to her. Never mind the fact that Nietzsche wrote in the 19th century! What a moron!

The most intelligent women are not as the most intelligent men. That's a fact. But this is not a philosophical issue. So, bring up a philosophical issue and we'll discuss it. But I won't discuss whether there should be more women in academia. There are too many now. They should be at home taking care of their children. That's an important job!

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Gary Childress
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Re: Womyn and Philosophy

Post by Gary Childress » Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:30 am

Melchior wrote:They should be at home taking care of their children. That's an important job!
But what if they are "old maids" and don't have children to take care of? Then what would be the reason for less women in academia?

Melchior
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Re: Womyn and Philosophy

Post by Melchior » Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:37 am

Gary Childress wrote:
Melchior wrote:They should be at home taking care of their children. That's an important job!
But what if they are "old maids" and don't have children to take care of? Then what would be the reason for less women in academia?
Have you dealt with older women? I guess not....please, spare me from older women.

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