Universe can't be infinite.

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David Handeye
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Universe can't be infinite.

Post by David Handeye » Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:42 pm

Hi everybody,

Consider universe as infinite. This means it has no beginning, no ending, no borders, no center. In every point you will be in it, you will have infinite points in front of you, infinite points behind you, infinite points below you, inifinite points above you, you will have inifinite points everywhere around you, so that you'll be the center of the universe. If you go on the Moon, you'll be in the same conditions, so that in an infinite universe there are infinite centers at any time, not none. But center can be only one, so infinite centers infinite universes. But infinite has neither beginning nor ending, so there can't be even two infinites, and universe can't be infinite.

jackles
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by jackles » Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:43 pm

Think I follow that theres but one infinity which cant be infinitly happening. But it can be can be infinity without event.

David Handeye
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by David Handeye » Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:06 pm

jackles wrote:Think I follow that theres but one infinity which cant be infinitly happening. But it can be can be infinity without event.
Hi jackles,
I find interesting your eventless infinity. Could you logically demonstrate it?

thedoc
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by thedoc » Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:15 pm

David Handeye wrote:Hi everybody,

Consider universe as infinite. This means it has no beginning, no ending, no borders, no center. In every point you will be in it, you will have infinite points in front of you, infinite points behind you, infinite points below you, inifinite points above you, you will have inifinite points everywhere around you, so that you'll be the center of the universe. If you go on the Moon, you'll be in the same conditions, so that in an infinite universe there are infinite centers at any time, not none. But center can be only one, so infinite centers infinite universes. But infinite has neither beginning nor ending, so there can't be even two infinites, and universe can't be infinite.
Does not follow, just because infinity has no beginning or end, does not preclude there being more than one infinity. The Universe could be infinitely infinite.

I also find it interesting that you are attempting to apply an abstract mathematical concept to the physical universe.

A steady state universe might be infinite, but an expanding universe implies a beginning and as it continues to expand, an end.

David Handeye
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by David Handeye » Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:31 pm

thedoc wrote:Does not follow, just because infinity has no beginning or end, does not preclude there being more than one infinity. The Universe could be infinitely infinite.

I also find it interesting that you are attempting to apply an abstract mathematical concept to the physical universe.

A steady state universe might be infinite, but an expanding universe implies a beginning and as it continues to expand, an end.
Hi thedoc,
just because infinity has no beginning and no end, there can't be more than one, otherwise if there were two, one would end where the other would begin. An expanding universe could never come to an end, as expanding it would create itself infinitely.

thedoc
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by thedoc » Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:39 pm

David Handeye wrote:
thedoc wrote:Does not follow, just because infinity has no beginning or end, does not preclude there being more than one infinity. The Universe could be infinitely infinite.

I also find it interesting that you are attempting to apply an abstract mathematical concept to the physical universe.

A steady state universe might be infinite, but an expanding universe implies a beginning and as it continues to expand, an end.
Hi thedoc,
just because infinity has no beginning and no end, there can't be more than one, otherwise if there were two, one would end where the other would begin. An expanding universe could never come to an end, as expanding it would create itself infinitely.
Almost, an expanding universe might go on forever, but if it had a beginning it can't be infinite, by definition. It might even expand to an infinite size, but it can never be infinite if it had a beginning. Infinite is double ended, no beginning and no end, loose one and you loose infinity.

David Handeye
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by David Handeye » Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:00 pm

Yes, you're perfectly right, doc, loose one and you loose infinity.. But I think infinite has no beginning, otherwise it wouldn't be that. And that would be another reason to consider universe not infinite.

thedoc
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by thedoc » Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:08 pm

David Handeye wrote:Yes, you're perfectly right, doc, loose one and you loose infinity.. But I think infinite has no beginning, otherwise it wouldn't be that. And that would be another reason to consider universe not infinite.
Yes, as of now the best guess is that the universe had a beginning, the Big Bang, but it's only a guess, and since I wasn't there to see it, I can't say for sure. I can only go on what the experts tell me they have discovered. An expanding universe implies that the expansion started sometime in the past.

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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie » Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:44 pm

thedoc wrote:
David Handeye wrote:Yes, you're perfectly right, doc, loose one and you loose infinity.. But I think infinite has no beginning, otherwise it wouldn't be that. And that would be another reason to consider universe not infinite.
Yes, as of now the best guess is that the universe had a beginning, the Big Bang, but it's only a guess, and since I wasn't there to see it, I can't say for sure. I can only go on what the experts tell me they have discovered. An expanding universe implies that the expansion started sometime in the past.
The same "experts" who faked the moon landing? Yeah I wouldn't trust them. Big bang's just a guess, there's plenty of honest scientists who don't work for NASA...right?

Or we could just be pawns in a simulation...

"apollo 11 is not fake"

It's fake as fuck, I'm sorry to say.


I'll get some energy when I'm done laughing to type it out.

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hammock
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by hammock » Thu Mar 12, 2015 6:14 pm

David Handeye wrote:Hi everybody, Consider universe as infinite. This means it has no beginning, no ending, no borders, no center. In every point you will be in it, you will have infinite points in front of you, infinite points behind you, infinite points below you, inifinite points above you, you will have inifinite points everywhere around you, so that you'll be the center of the universe. If you go on the Moon, you'll be in the same conditions, so that in an infinite universe there are infinite centers at any time, not none. But center can be only one, so infinite centers infinite universes. But infinite has neither beginning nor ending, so there can't be even two infinites, and universe can't be infinite.
Infinite as "immeasurable": An expanse which is continually growing or continually being divided thus avoids definite quantification. As well, an expanse which actually is completed and fixed (and accordingly finite), but which is susceptible to eventual decay, could still be so large that no process is rapid enough to measure it or formulate an accurate size before it dissipates ("infinite" or immeasurable in merely that sense).

Otherwise, infinite as adjective for a completed (not still growing, dividing, etc) magnitude actually references a finite condition (what is bounded and not open-ended). Usage would be contradictory. An expanse curving back on itself might qualify for infinite as "endless", but not necessarily immeasurable (depending).

David Handeye
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by David Handeye » Thu Mar 12, 2015 6:38 pm

hammock wrote:Infinite as "immeasurable": An expanse which is continually growing or continually being divided thus avoids definite quantification. As well, an expanse which actually is completed and fixed (and accordingly finite), but which is susceptible to eventual decay, could still be so large that no process is rapid enough to measure it or formulate an accurate size before it dissipates ("infinite" or immeasurable in merely that sense).

Otherwise, infinite as adjective for a completed (not still growing, dividing, etc) magnitude actually references a finite condition (what is bounded and not open-ended). Usage would be contradictory. An expanse curving back on itself might qualify for infinite as "endless", but not necessarily immeasurable (depending).
Great post, hammock.
What about real numbers? Any point I choose on the line, it will have infinite points to its left and infinite points to its right. Could an inifinite such as real numbers set have a center?

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hammock
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by hammock » Fri Mar 13, 2015 1:54 am

David Handeye wrote:What about real numbers? Any point I choose on the line, it will have infinite points to its left and infinite points to its right. Could an inifinite such as real numbers set have a center?
In the everyday [non-Platonic] world an infinite number line is never completed (simply extended as needed), and accordingly at any of its stages where there's a point with an equal quantity of units on both sides, there is a candidate for a temporary center. Obviously this skirts around any idealized version of an infinite number line which supposedly is not an activity or a perpetual work in progress. With "idealized" here referring to constructs that are not physically realizable, but which may still hold together description-wise in an abstract context. Rather than empirical evidence, valid claims made about the characteristics of mathematical or other intellectual objects [those which resist material instantiation, especially] depend on the claimed feature being consistent with the rest of the concept or formal framework, or falling out of the latter's axioms without ad hoc add-ons and manipulations not indigenous to the system.

Ginkgo
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by Ginkgo » Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:33 am

David Handeye wrote:Hi everybody,

Consider universe as infinite. This means it has no beginning, no ending, no borders, no center. In every point you will be in it, you will have infinite points in front of you, infinite points behind you, infinite points below you, inifinite points above you, you will have inifinite points everywhere around you, so that you'll be the center of the universe. If you go on the Moon, you'll be in the same conditions, so that in an infinite universe there are infinite centers at any time, not none. But center can be only one, so infinite centers infinite universes. But infinite has neither beginning nor ending, so there can't be even two infinites, and universe can't be infinite.

A universe that has no beginning, end or borders doesn't have to satisfy any claim to infinity. A finite universe can have no centre, borders or edges. Depending on the type of typology you choose to represent the universe. It is generally accepted that the universe has no centre, regardless of it being finite or infinite.

David Handeye
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by David Handeye » Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:40 am

hammock wrote:In the everyday [non-Platonic] world an infinite number line is never completed (simply extended as needed), and accordingly at any of its stages where there's a point with an equal quantity of units on both sides, there is a candidate for a temporary center. Obviously this skirts around any idealized version of an infinite number line which supposedly is not an activity or a perpetual work in progress. With "idealized" here referring to constructs that are not physically realizable, but which may still hold together description-wise in an abstract context. Rather than empirical evidence, valid claims made about the characteristics of mathematical or other intellectual objects [those which resist material instantiation, especially] depend on the claimed feature being consistent with the rest of the concept or formal framework, or falling out of the latter's axioms without ad hoc add-ons and manipulations not indigenous to the system.
[/quote]
Yes, I agree. So Hegel wasn't so wrong assuming reality made up of consistent ideas constantly connected to each other, and so assuming meaning. There should be realized the perfect compenetration between being and thought.

David Handeye
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by David Handeye » Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:47 am

Ginkgo wrote:
David Handeye wrote:Hi everybody,

Consider universe as infinite. This means it has no beginning, no ending, no borders, no center. In every point you will be in it, you will have infinite points in front of you, infinite points behind you, infinite points below you, inifinite points above you, you will have inifinite points everywhere around you, so that you'll be the center of the universe. If you go on the Moon, you'll be in the same conditions, so that in an infinite universe there are infinite centers at any time, not none. But center can be only one, so infinite centers infinite universes. But infinite has neither beginning nor ending, so there can't be even two infinites, and universe can't be infinite.

A universe that has no beginning, end or borders doesn't have to satisfy any claim to infinity. A finite universe can have no centre, borders or edges. Depending on the type of typology you choose to represent the universe. It is generally accepted that the universe has no centre, regardless of it being finite or infinite.
I tried to reach reasonable concerning of universe limitless suggestion without a telescope :mrgreen: . Just to think. That should serve philosophy, I hope.

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