Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:25 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:One cannot remove the timeline although one can become unaware of its existence. This shall
occur at the precise point when consciousness becomes non consciousness. An eternity of that
state shall then commence though one shall not actually be aware of it.
Death is the final and
permanent destination and one free from all suffering so why are humans so afraid of it. None
were afraid of it before they were born so why be afraid of it before they die ? Makes no sense
Yes I know. And you point it out so elegantly. If one is not aware of it, then one does not experience it. And therefore, it might as well not even exist. Therefore, we are still at square I, the problem of removing existence itself. Anything else, is just counting on the roll of the dice, hoping death will do your homework for you.
You see, sweetie?

surreptitious57
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Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:10 am

The problem here is that there is no way to remove existence other than by death so thinking about it is from a practical
perspective a tad superfluous to requirement. I myself have made peace with it and so it can therefore take me any time
I am actually looking forward to spending the rest of eternity in a state of permanent painlessness and non consciousness
I find it vey soothing philosophically speaking. So therefore what ever life throws at me I know it is but a temporary thing
so try not to let it affect me too negatively. Isolation is an excellent grounding mechanism I find though I can not actually
recommend it since it is only something one can decide for oneself not anyone else. As I get older I retreat more inside of
myself so just let it be and try not to focus that intensely up on anything but just let it flow with much fluidity as possible
I am merely passing through so try not to have too tight a grip on reality as that will at some point have to be relinquished

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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie » Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:48 am

surreptitious57 wrote:The problem here is that there is no way to remove existence other than by death so thinking about it is from a practical
perspective a tad superfluous to requirement. I myself have made peace with it and so it can therefore take me any time
I am actually looking forward to spending the rest of eternity in a state of permanent painlessness and non consciousness
I find it vey soothing philosophically speaking. So therefore what ever life throws at me I know it is but a temporary thing
so try not to let it affect me too negatively. Isolation is an excellent grounding mechanism I find though I can not actually
recommend it since it is only something one can decide for oneself not anyone else. As I get older I retreat more inside of
myself so just let it be and try not to focus that intensely up on anything but just let it flow with much fluidity as possible
I am merely passing through so try not to have too tight a grip on reality as that will at some point have to be relinquished
The problem here is that you missed the core point of my post. I see what you are saying, but do you see what I am saying? I think you do not yet. To think that this life's death would be the absolute death, wow. This life is nothing more than a pile of rubbish and broken parts. It's the equivalent of a lousy B movie, and you think this ending of this life is the ultimate death? Ha. Please go back and read my post above this one.

thedoc
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Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by thedoc » Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:24 am

surreptitious57 wrote: I am merely passing through so try not to have too tight a grip on reality as that will at some point have to be relinquished

Should we send our condolences now?

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Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:42 am

There are external forces over which one has no real control so one has to understand that and therefore work within
them. Your suggestion with regard to the removal of existence is not something that could actually work within those
constraints so I reject it. Liberation comes from accepting limitations not by denying them. After you die you shall no
longer be concerned about the removal of existence anymore since you shall not possess the cognitive ability to think
in such abstract terms so your protestations about death are of no consequence. I have no desire to remove existence
as it is without my capability to do so I let it go. Maybe a problem for you if you are serious about it but not so for me

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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie » Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:25 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:There are external forces over which one has no real control so one has to understand that and therefore work within
them. Your suggestion with regard to the removal of existence is not something that could actually work within those
constraints so I reject it. Liberation comes from accepting limitations not by denying them. After you die you shall no
longer be concerned about the removal of existence anymore since you shall not possess the cognitive ability to think
in such abstract terms so your protestations about death are of no consequence. I have no desire to remove existence
as it is without my capability to do so I let it go. Maybe a problem for you if you are serious about it but not so for me
Similar in attitude to those who said heavier than air flying machines could not be created. Just because we don't understand it yet, doesn't make it impossible.

And the important problem, is that you seem to be ignoring the point I made earlier. Please address that first, since what I'm saying is the crux that makes your entire argument fall apart.

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Lev Muishkin
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Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by Lev Muishkin » Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:23 pm

Nibbana wrote:
Lev Muishkin wrote:
The grammar is perfect, except the second 'we' ought to have a capital. My apologies.
You have the essence of the meaning.

What makes me is a unique and complex structure of matter. Not the atoms that form the structure.
Romeo and Juliet is not the Latin alphabet, but the order in which the letters of that alphabet are gathered. If you separate the words and letters - you just get a pile of nonsense.

Humans have the same atoms as a dog, a banana or a cat: mostly C, O, H, N, a little P and P, some Na and a few traces of other things.

We are not eternal, just because are atoms persist after our death. Death is the disorganisation of matter.


No. We are eternal. It's against the law of conservation of energy if we are not.

Right, after death we are disorganized. Our forms of human change. But we still exist in the new forms of matter. New forms of energy. We as a matter or energy are immortal. Matter or energy never dies. It just changes its form.

New things are actually the new forms of old things. Old things are actually the new forms of new things.

For example, I bought a new chair. What is it? It's now the combination of old things, ie wood, nails, etc. After five years, that chair will change. It will be old, of course, new form.
You are being ridiculous. Information can be lost forever, this does not transgress the laws of nature.

It does not matter a dingo's kidney about matter and energy.
You chair is only comprised of atoms. It is the atoms that remain, not the chair. Burn the chair! You can't get it back, ever.
What makes you, you is the information, not the atoms which are the same as any chair.

thedoc
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Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by thedoc » Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:03 pm

Lev Muishkin wrote: You are being ridiculous. Information can be lost forever, this does not transgress the laws of nature.

It does not matter a dingo's kidney about matter and energy.
You chair is only comprised of atoms. It is the atoms that remain, not the chair. Burn the chair! You can't get it back, ever.
What makes you, you is the information, not the atoms which are the same as any chair.
An Idea is not physical and non-physical things can be lost or destroyed, what is physical will remain, in other forms.

"dingo's kidney", another hitchhikers fan, that's a point in your favor.

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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie » Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:09 pm

Lev Muishkin wrote:
Nibbana wrote:
Lev Muishkin wrote:
The grammar is perfect, except the second 'we' ought to have a capital. My apologies.
You have the essence of the meaning.

What makes me is a unique and complex structure of matter. Not the atoms that form the structure.
Romeo and Juliet is not the Latin alphabet, but the order in which the letters of that alphabet are gathered. If you separate the words and letters - you just get a pile of nonsense.

Humans have the same atoms as a dog, a banana or a cat: mostly C, O, H, N, a little P and P, some Na and a few traces of other things.

We are not eternal, just because are atoms persist after our death. Death is the disorganisation of matter.


No. We are eternal. It's against the law of conservation of energy if we are not.

Right, after death we are disorganized. Our forms of human change. But we still exist in the new forms of matter. New forms of energy. We as a matter or energy are immortal. Matter or energy never dies. It just changes its form.

New things are actually the new forms of old things. Old things are actually the new forms of new things.

For example, I bought a new chair. What is it? It's now the combination of old things, ie wood, nails, etc. After five years, that chair will change. It will be old, of course, new form.
You are being ridiculous. Information can be lost forever, this does not transgress the laws of nature.

It does not matter a dingo's kidney about matter and energy.
You chair is only comprised of atoms. It is the atoms that remain, not the chair. Burn the chair! You can't get it back, ever.
What makes you, you is the information, not the atoms which are the same as any chair.
Lost...Well what is lost? Gone to another place.

Forever...Till the end of time?

Well if something is lost forever, could it be gone to the back of time?

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Lev Muishkin
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Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by Lev Muishkin » Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:26 pm

GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Lev Muishkin wrote:
The grammar is perfect, except the second 'we' ought to have a capital. My apologies.
You have the essence of the meaning.

What makes me is a unique and complex structure of matter. Not the atoms that form the structure.
Romeo and Juliet is not the Latin alphabet, but the order in which the letters of that alphabet are gathered. If you separate the words and letters - you just get a pile of nonsense.

Humans have the same atoms as a dog, a banana or a cat: mostly C, O, H, N, a little P and P, some Na and a few traces of other things.

We are not eternal, just because are atoms persist after our death. Death is the disorganisation of matter.

.....

. Information can be lost forever, this does not transgress the laws of nature.

It does not matter a dingo's kidney about matter and energy.
You chair is only comprised of atoms. It is the atoms that remain, not the chair. Burn the chair! You can't get it back, ever.
What makes you, you is the information, not the atoms which are the same as any chair.
Lost...Well what is lost? Gone to another place.

Forever...Till the end of time?

Well if something is lost forever, could it be gone to the back of time?


The "PAST" is not a place. The past is past. I find it puzzling why people don't get this. Events in time are unique. This idea is given us by Heraclitus, and never really been refuted.
Entropy is a fact of reality.

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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie » Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:32 pm

Lev Muishkin wrote:
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Lev Muishkin wrote:
The grammar is perfect, except the second 'we' ought to have a capital. My apologies.
You have the essence of the meaning.

What makes me is a unique and complex structure of matter. Not the atoms that form the structure.
Romeo and Juliet is not the Latin alphabet, but the order in which the letters of that alphabet are gathered. If you separate the words and letters - you just get a pile of nonsense.

Humans have the same atoms as a dog, a banana or a cat: mostly C, O, H, N, a little P and P, some Na and a few traces of other things.

We are not eternal, just because are atoms persist after our death. Death is the disorganisation of matter.

.....

. Information can be lost forever, this does not transgress the laws of nature.

It does not matter a dingo's kidney about matter and energy.
You chair is only comprised of atoms. It is the atoms that remain, not the chair. Burn the chair! You can't get it back, ever.
What makes you, you is the information, not the atoms which are the same as any chair.
Lost...Well what is lost? Gone to another place.

Forever...Till the end of time?

Well if something is lost forever, could it be gone to the back of time?


The "PAST" is not a place. The past is past. I find it puzzling why people don't get this. Events in time are unique. This idea is given us by Heraclitus, and never really been refuted.
Entropy is a fact of reality.
It seems true that going back in time, and altering the timeline, would still be part of the greater timeline, and that you could not go back on the ultimate timeline...

But perhaps...

thedoc
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Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by thedoc » Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:37 pm

GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Lev Muishkin wrote: The "PAST" is not a place. The past is past. I find it puzzling why people don't get this. Events in time are unique. This idea is given us by Heraclitus, and never really been refuted.
Entropy is a fact of reality.
It seems true that going back in time, and altering the timeline, would still be part of the greater timeline, and that you could not go back on the ultimate timeline...
But perhaps...

Ah, the "timeline" and the "ultimate timeline", isn't science fiction great.

surreptitious57
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Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:51 am

The removal of existence and the ultimate timeline are indeed from science fiction because the first is not
possible and the second does not exist. They are interesting concepts but neither has any bearing in reality
But I would be prepared to change my mind were any evidence or proof offered for either but otherwise no
Of course what is possible in the future may not be so now although this is a logical fallacy since it assumes
that anything might be possible in the future when that is not so so it is just a variation on God Of The Gaps
And argument from emotion does not validate your position either as wanting something to be true does not
make it so. You have not actually offered any logical reasoning for the validity of your position so unless you
do then I can not take it seriously. You therefore need to support your argument rather than merely assert it

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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie » Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:37 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:The removal of existence and the ultimate timeline are indeed from science fiction because the first is not
possible and the second does not exist. They are interesting concepts but neither has any bearing in reality
But I would be prepared to change my mind were any evidence or proof offered for either but otherwise no
Of course what is possible in the future may not be so now although this is a logical fallacy since it assumes
that anything might be possible in the future when that is not so so it is just a variation on God Of The Gaps
And argument from emotion does not validate your position either as wanting something to be true does not
make it so. You have not actually offered any logical reasoning for the validity of your position so unless you
do then I can not take it seriously. You therefore need to support your argument rather than merely assert it
Based on modern science attitudes, they say there are multiple dimensions, and different timelines. Assuming they are right, modifying one of the timelines would just be part of the "ultimate timeline" which is not a thing, but an idea.

surreptitious57
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Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:35 pm

Time may run faster or slower in other Universes since the laws of physics would
be different. But as they can not be detected because of the boundary limitation
of light in this one then the point is somewhat academic. And so if you wanted to
access the so called ultimate timeline that would only be possible in this Universe

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