Tao

For all things philosophical.

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Arising_uk
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Re: Tao

Post by Arising_uk »

jackles wrote:you are wrong arising .a cause does not have to be a thing.as in where did energy come from.. ...
Energy is not a thing, its the capacity of using matter to do work(although I'll listen to physicists who say different?). So no, I'm not wrong, if there is a cause then there is a thing causing it.
you are jumping to your own conclusions to fit your own individual ego out look.tao is nonlocal.tao means nonlocal.sizeless!!
lmfao! Take a look in the mirror!!

Dao just means 'the way' and that change is the rule, it makes no assumptions about some non-entity or, at least, it says one can make no assumptions of attribution to whatever might be at the root of change, in effect it is pretty much Kant's Noumena and like him they say you cannot talk about it but such as you appear to want to do this all the time?
jackles
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Re: Tao

Post by jackles »

arising what you are saying is that a cause has to be energy.but what caused the energy.taoism has reincarnation and that means they taoist believe life goes on after body death.
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Arising_uk
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Re: Tao

Post by Arising_uk »

No, thats just your bug-bear getting in the way. What I'm saying is that if anything is a cause then it is a thing. 'Energy' is a term from Physics and essentially means 'We don't know'. Same as 'Force' and 'Field'.

The Daoists can believe what they wish, as can you, but philosophically you are pretty much talking nonsense.
jackles
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Re: Tao

Post by jackles »

ok lets deal with things one at a time
tao.tao incorperates the knowledge that you your soul that is .gets reincarnated for as many times as it takes to get self realised.this means they taoist believe in life after death.this is the exact same teaching as jesus gave which is that the kingdom of heaven is in the self.therefor there is no differents between taoism and what jesus was talking.now if there is life after death that life after death is sizeless and nonlocal by reason.it has to be because heaven cannot be a physical place or location.heaven cant be an energy form.logic!.so by reason we say tao is nonlocality.by reason and logic heaven is nirvana and is locationless and is the relativity in the flux of yin and yan..what created yin and yan also created objects.so tao is also the relativity between objects.what created the objects is also the relativity between those objects.relativity is consciousness
Nikolai
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Re: Tao

Post by Nikolai »

The only words that can serve as synonyms to the Tao are pure being, pure consciousness.

Whatever IS, that is the Tao.

The Tao is the 'light' of the moment. The past is a memory that happens now in the light, and the light is the Tao. Likewise for the future. Therefore the Tao transcends time, and therefore even to call it the now is to misrepresent it.

When we think of causes, it is the Tao that is representing itself under the aspect of 'cause'. When we think of 'effects' it is the Tao that masquerades as an 'effect'.

In itself the Tao transcends thought because any given thought is just an instantiation of itself. Thought, we imagine, represents reality...but to the person who is with the Tao the thought is itself the reality and is not a mere representation. To the person who knows the Tao, a thought is therefore not a thought.

The Tao is therefore not a cause, not a power. Such notions belong to the realm of time and space, and time and space are just manifestations of the Tao...and not existing independently of it. When the knower of the Tao tries to communicate it to those who don't understand it he must employ terms that they understand. He must use the jargon of the temporal-spatial world. But take these terms too seriously and you will miss the Tao.

When the knower of the Tao talks of the Tao he knows he misrepresents it. Anyone who thinks the Tao can be talked about doesn't knwo the Tao. it is because he doesn't know the Tao that he naively thinks it can be talked about.

The person who knows the Tao is no longer a person, they are the Tao. This makes the Tao extremely hard to see. Who can doubt their own existence? but unless you see and believe that you are nothing then you will always imagine yourself to be an individual in time and space...and this person is far from the Tao but of course simultaneously it.
thedoc
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Re: Tao

Post by thedoc »

Nikolai wrote: When the knower of the Tao talks of the Tao he knows he misrepresents it. Anyone who thinks the Tao can be talked about doesn't knwo the Tao. it is because he doesn't know the Tao that he naively thinks it can be talked about.

The person who knows the Tao is no longer a person, they are the Tao. This makes the Tao extremely hard to see. Who can doubt their own existence? but unless you see and believe that you are nothing then you will always imagine yourself to be an individual in time and space...and this person is far from the Tao but of course simultaneously it.

"Those who know, don't say. Those who say, don't know."

Since you and I are saying, we are in the latter group. Words are inadequate for Zen or Tao, it must be experienced.

However many years ago I read that all are enlightened, but just don't know it. So I decided that since I'm already enlightened, I would skip all the hard work to become enlightened, and play with my grandchildren.

'The Tao of Zen?' perhaps?
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HexHammer
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Re: Tao

Post by HexHammer »

Nikolai wrote:The person who knows the Tao is no longer a person, they are the Tao. This makes the Tao extremely hard to see. Who can doubt their own existence? but unless you see and believe that you are nothing then you will always imagine yourself to be an individual in time and space...and this person is far from the Tao but of course simultaneously it.
Uhmmm, that's just generally speaking withot any specifics, how has this been implemented in the real world? So far as I've seen it went quite bad with China, only when they scrapped all this outdated supersticious nonsense and embraced imperialism and capitalism they became a super power in the world.
Nikolai
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Re: Tao

Post by Nikolai »

Uhmmm, that's just generally speaking withot any specifics, how has this been implemented in the real world?
The Tao is implemented whenever we our behaviour is spontaneous, and germane to the actual situation rather than behaviour based on imperfect mental appraisals of the situation. In other words, we all express the Tao all the time most obviously in our bodily functions but even often in the way we speak, cook , speak to people etc.

The areas of our life where the Tao is relatively established is what I call our talents. Anything we do beautifully, and skillfully and which gives us and others pleasure and satisfaction is evidence of the Tao working through us. We all have these talents and for many people on this site their talents are likely to be intellectual in nature.

The Tao becomes a permanent way when we have finally seen that the Tao is our true and actual nature and that we are not individuals with talents. This is the Tao of the saint and is rare.
So far as I've seen it went quite bad with China, only when they scrapped all this outdated supersticious nonsense and embraced imperialism and capitalism they became a super power in the world.
The true Taoist saint has nothing to do with 'Taoism' and the Tao can't be worshipped or followed in any pre-conceived manner. Taoists so called are by definition people who have not yet realised the true Tao but are, like ordinary people, seeking to improve their mortal existence in various ways. More or less people may succeed for more or less time, but ultimately they are following dubious opinions about the nature of things that are equivocal and will eventually be overthrown. Needless to say, China has never been a nation that has followed the Tao any more than Britain has been a nation of saints.

The hardest thing in the world is to know that the Tao can't be known. Many are called, and many aspire to follow the Tao because they have the intuitive wisdom to recognise the sovereign good. They will call themselves Taoists, but they must endure for a long season thinking they are Taoists when they are not. For a long time the sheer simple ordinariness of the Tao is simply too disappointing to face and they must perhaps be disappointed by their attempts to find it before the ordinariness of the Tao will afford them some relief.
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HexHammer
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Re: Tao

Post by HexHammer »

Nikolai

What you say is pure delusional nonsense and babble, it isn't classical Tao'ism, but something feverishly made up fairytale fantasies.
jackles
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Re: Tao

Post by jackles »

nikolai. you have reached sartori.the simple you is eternity its self.
Blaggard
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Re: Tao

Post by Blaggard »

HexHammer wrote:Nikolai

What you say is pure delusional nonsense and babble, it isn't classical Tao'ism, but something feverishly made up fairytale fantasies.
And of course as usual Hex you don't actually supply a reason why, you just claim it is fantasy. Hex why are you even here? No offence but you never post anything that isn't a troll, and you never explain your reasoning for anything? It seems to me you would be better served by a forum that caters to trolls, such as yourself. But I don't think you will ever move off your plinth to go anywhere but into how everyone is wrong because you say so, which seems on a philosophy forum pointless; I've seen this before on other forums they are called cakemakers, they just deny something, but they don't supply any sort of reason, hence we are supposed to bake the case or cake ourselves. I see no problem with the idea, but it is dishonest and it is not conducive to anything. I think though there is little to be served by anyone no matter how mighty he thinks he is, by just poo pooing any thread, and not actually discussing anything. I am calling you out Hex, hence, are you a cake maker, or are you a genuine poster..?

So I ask in all seriousness the next time you do not agree with a poster you explain why, not just that you do not agree, or you will just be a baker. ;)
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Arising_uk
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Re: Tao

Post by Arising_uk »

HexHammer wrote:Uhmmm, that's just generally speaking withot any specifics, how has this been implemented in the real world? So far as I've seen it went quite bad with China, only when they scrapped all this outdated supersticious nonsense and embraced imperialism and capitalism they became a super power in the world.
Wrong, before its brush with the west China was producing about 80% of the worlds trading goods, the blip was Maoism, but now they're mixing Mao and returning to Tao and retaking their place as the major producer and trader.
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HexHammer
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Re: Tao

Post by HexHammer »

Arising_uk wrote:
HexHammer wrote:Uhmmm, that's just generally speaking withot any specifics, how has this been implemented in the real world? So far as I've seen it went quite bad with China, only when they scrapped all this outdated supersticious nonsense and embraced imperialism and capitalism they became a super power in the world.
Wrong, before its brush with the west China was producing about 80% of the worlds trading goods, the blip was Maoism, but now they're mixing Mao and returning to Tao and retaking their place as the major producer and trader.
I would like to see some articles about that.

Sure there has been some Taoist movements, but not on govermential lvl as far as I know.
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Arising_uk
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Re: Tao

Post by Arising_uk »

HexHammer wrote:I would like to see some articles about that.
Theres been a few about Taoisms rising popularity amongst the populace. Goggle them.
Sure there has been some Taoist movements, but not on govermential lvl as far as I know.
Fair point, mine was about the mix in the populace. One interesting thing is that the Chinese have set up a whole university just to study what possible religions would be useful in the processes of industrial and capital development under the form of state capitalism they prefer and it looks like Wesley's Methodism has much to say for itself.
Nikolai
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Re: Tao

Post by Nikolai »

Got a ref for that Methodism stuff A_uk?, sounds interesting.
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