heaven is it natural or super natural

[jackles]

Yes is heaven a natural state or a super natural state.is the nature of an indivdual a super natural one without the knowledge or the realisation of the fact by the individual.does the the natural life of the individual take place in a super natural consciousness which is its self the kingdom of heaven.heaven then would not be a remote super nature but the inderviduals very own awareness.

[thedoc]

In Buddhism there is a saying in reference to 'Enlightenment' that "Those who know, don't say. Those who say, don't know." and this is explained that words are inadequate to describe Enlightenment.

The same could be said of the Judao/Christian concept of Heaven. Those who can say, have not been there, they are still alive. Those who can't say, are there, they are dead.

[jackles]

Yes those are wise words.but we can ask what if.so say we take it there is a heaven.that heaven by reason would have to be sizeless and never happen.and also be a consciousness.the alfa and omega of all meaning.

[thedoc]

Forever and Eternity are words that are often confused, but do not mean the same thing, at least in my usage. Forever is the endless passage of time, Eternity is existence outside of time, In Eternity time does not pass, time does not exist. It is my opinion that Heaven exists in Eternity and does not have any relationship to our experience of time. That being said, it has been suggested that the present is the intersection of our passage of time and eternity. Heaven does not necessarily fit with our sense of reason and logic, why should it, Heaven and eternity are outside of human experience, except in death.

Ironically Andrew Lloyd Weber put it nicely "To conquer death, you only have to die."

[jackles]

Yes for ever means a continuious event.eternity means never happen in terms of event.heaven there for is eternity a never happen event.which can contain an event without loosing its integrety of never happening.so all things that happen are a story.in eternity .the universe is a story within the meaning of eternity.it then follows that eternity is the underlying theme in the universe the basis for all religions.wars are fought because of the theme of eternity . with the event identity carrying through the action event.event identity fights event identity.ex churchill british fights hitler german

[QMan]

Please view the two links below for a description and the reality of heaven.

http://www.medjugorje.com/medjugorje/he ... eaven.html

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wW2TLZLYgm ... W2TLZLYgm4

Actually, if you believe in a hereafter then, when it is your time, you will step through the door into the next life in a very natural manner. In that sense heaven is part of our natural existence and is therefore natural. At the same time, the natural laws in heaven would appear to us to be outside our natural laws or supernatural. So it depends on the focus of your discussion whether heaven is natural or supernatural.

[Arising_uk]

Yes is heaven a natural state or a super natural state. ...

Neither, its a non-existent 'state'.

[Mike Strand]

Spinoza viewed God and Nature as equivalent. Then if Nature is all that is, and if "heaven" (needs to be defined) exists, then heaven is natural under this view.

What is meant by "heaven", "natural", and "supernatural"? If I define everything that exists as being natural, then for heaven to exist it would have to be natural. If, under some system of ideas or assumptions, there are things that exist outside of nature, "exonatural" may be a better term than "supernatural".

Possible definitions of "heaven" range from oblivion (euphemized as "eternal rest and peace") to a state of biological life, or a life after biological death, in which a person is conscious and blissful. There is more evidence for oblivion (you're completely dead when you die) in nature than for the afterlife of happiness. However there are stories of people (Buddha?) who achieved heaven (state of bliss) in this life, so then it would be natural.

[QMan]

Now this discussion may actually get us some place.

By using the term heaven and being concerned with some of its properties I must assume that you think that heaven could actually exist. Otherwise you have simply brought up the topic of heaven as a fictional matter of perhaps entertaining but essentially idle speculation.

Using the ground rule from philosophy 101 that you cannot use an unproven or unprovable to prove something else, your topic indeed seems to be idle speculation. That, of course, because one cannot prove from our human perspective whether or not heaven exists.

This being so obvious, then why has the notion of heaven been around for so long since it seems to be futile speculation? The reason is of course clear. We can, and always do, assign partial probabilities of truthfulness to information passed on to us from others (although many people do not seem to be aware of the fact that they are doing exactly that throughout their life). As a matter of fact that's how we function in that 99.9...% of an individual's knowledge is obtained from outside sources (schooling, TV, friends, magazines and newspapers, etc.). Knowledge is therefore mostly probabilistic in nature simply because we have not experienced it ourselves or been able to verify it with 100% certainty ourselves.

The notion of heaven is therefore accepted by a large segment of humanity because it has been assigned a fairly high probability (not 100%) of truthfulness for a number of reasons. Conversely, the notion that heaven "does not" exist is not considered probable because it is speculative entirely since it is unproven or unprovable and it therefore cannot compete even with a partial probability (less than 100%).

Below are some reasons why for many people heaven is probable:

1. The accepted historical accuracy of the miracles and teaching of Jesus Christ. To avoid this You must argue that Christ did not exist and/or that he was simply a charlatan. Of course, the historical accuracy of Christ's life is well established.

2. The continual occurrence of solidly verified miracles throughout history. When you hear the word miracle, that means a supernatural event has occurred (dictionary definition). In modern times we mostly hear about miracles that are medical in nature and are occurrences that transcend our current or any human capability for healing. By definition, a miracle is also instantaneous, something we cannot ever hope to achieve.

3. Experiences and testimonials like the video taped testimonial of orthopedic spinal surgeon Dr. Mary Neal who died and went to heaven and back.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wW2TLZLYgm ... W2TLZLYgm4

Please note that the experience of Dr. Mary Neal described in the video link about having died, been in heaven and back is being ignored here. This is unjustified since her testimonial demonstrates exactly how we all acquire knowledge. Namely, knowledge and experience passed on by a highly reliable witness. A professional MD eminently qualified to discriminate between hallucination or dream state and knowledgeable about medicines and their side effects. By training able to do critical thinking and performing in depth practical and theoretical analysis. You can't have a better witness than that. Any detraction from her testimonial would simply be unproven speculation and would not be able to compete with the probable truthfulness of the manner and the content of her experience.

Therefore, heaven probably exists as she, and many others with similar experiences, have described and concluded. Personally, I place my bets with the higher probability and not with idle speculation.

[jackles]

Well heaven cannot exist as a place.because a place would have to move. all places or locations move in a relative way.so i cant see heaven moving .if it heaven did move then it would have to move in relativness to another thing.that would make it a heaven that is two things.so time would and space would then be in existance.so heaven must be then singular and there for sizeless in terms of time space and quantity.in other words an alfa and omega never happened state of existance..

[QMan]

Well heaven cannot exist as a place.because a place would have to move. all places or locations move in a relative way.so i cant see heaven moving .if it heaven did move then it would have to move in relativness to another thing.that would make it a heaven that is two things.so time would and space would then be in existance.so heaven must be then singular and there for sizeless in terms of time space and quantity.in other words an alfa and omega never happened state of existance..

Generally, in any branch of investigation one first has to become familiar with the subject matter, the test environment, the test subject(s), the required tool set, etc. before testing and investigating can successfully begin. Thus , from the lab manual (the bible) one gets the information that heaven potentially not only exists around us but also within us depending on our interior disposition and our actions. Your idea of a place has to be modified in view of that fact. The supernatural is simply different and not accessible through our natural science type of approach.

[jackles]

No my reasoning on place is the correct one.place or location any where has to move in time space.the kingdom of heaven is beond those constraints.and there for is sizeless in that regard.heaven is inside and outside the event and therefor in side and outside time/space.so the kingdom of heaven is in side and outside of size.example money has size.the kingdom of heaven is also inside and out side quantity in any terms even money.

[thedoc]

That would be correct if you consider Heaven a physical place, but I believe that heaven is considered more a state of being or a state of mind, and therefore not a physical place dependent on the laws of physics.

[QMan]

No my reasoning on place is the correct one.place or location any where has to move in time space.the kingdom of heaven is beond those constraints.and there for is sizeless in that regard.heaven is inside and outside the event and therefor in side and outside time/space.so the kingdom of heaven is in side and outside of size.example money has size.the kingdom of heaven is also inside and out side quantity in any terms even money.

I believe I am getting an inkling of what you mean and we are not really far apart. Basically, you have answered your own question then, namely that heaven is not a natural (physical) domain as ours but is supernatural. Although the word natural has two meanings here, a physical domain (which heaven is not) or the natural of Spinoza (per Mike Strand, above) where any existing order and arrangement of things in its totality is simply a natural state.

[jackles]

Yeah reckon you are near by that answer by the last bit of it i think you mean its both.the kingdom is both inside and outside nature as normaly understood.its inside energy and is the cause.and beond the cause is the word or meaning.it is there for the in side and outside of general relativity .and quantum mechanics.