There is no such thing as knowing

Known unknowns and unknown unknowns!

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: There is no such thing as knowing

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:27 am

SpheresOfBalance wrote:... as death is what all men fear most, ...
chaz wyman wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
Arising_uk wrote:Is it tho'? Many appear to be able to give their lives for many reasons. I agree that most would avoid dying if possible but to fear death appears to be an exercise in futility if one believes that one is inevitably going to die. For myself I fear dying before I've achieved certain things, I also fear illness and infirmity more than dying. Of course I can only base this upon the few limited occasions when I've thought "I going to die right now".
Of course sometimes I forget to fully qualify my statements, often like most people, I take certain things for granted, I believe them to be self evident. What I should have added was "as death is what all sane men fear most, ..." Of course this is the way I see things, you may see them differently, as obviously do, those insane men. At least all but those that do so, to save an innocent, at the very moment, that the innocent is certainly to be killed, where their sacrifice, shall save the innocent, which really has no bearing on what they fear most, as one cannot query them, after the fact.
But what you need to do is qualify your statements by saying you have no right to say them.
As you cannot know all sane people, you cannot assess what is their maximal fear. So this statement is beyond your ability to make, being not a possible part of your experience. Only megalomaniacs demand to make statements that you are beyond their possible experience.

Why would anyone fear death anyway? There is nothing more certain than death.
It seem to me a very childish thing to hang on to such a fear.
Maybe you are just a pussy?
And are transferring your cowardice to others
All that you say above is surely vindictive, but more importantly false, because unlike you I have actually done research into this matter. It is true that everyone fears death more than any other thing. It is a biological necessity. Life wants to stay alive. Don't believe me? Kill yourself right now! Yeah I thought so! While you say that I cannot know in and of myself, neither can you know to the contrary, in and of yourself. But at least I can know with a plethora of scientific data to back me up, as I trust in the scientific experts, as I review the data and compare that with my life long journey of 55 years, I find that their findings are consistent, so I trust in them. It is the same with everyone that speaks, that they are in fact a culmination of all knowledge, of others, that has come before them, that they are exposed to, that they compare to their own experience, so as to speak of it, with as much certainty as anyone can have.

Do you now feel a sharp pain in your foot? Only if you truly be intelligent!

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Re: There is no such thing as knowing

Post by chaz wyman » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:36 pm

SpheresOfBalance wrote: All that you say above is surely vindictive, t!

BoooooHooooo. You can dish it out but you can't take it.

You said "death is what all sane men fear most".

A list of insane people and their view of death....

The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.
Mark Twain

Suicide is man's way of telling God, "You can't fire me - I quit."
Bill Maher

The fear of death is the most unjustified of all fears, for there's no risk of accident for someone who's dead.
Albert Einstein

Dying is easy, it's living that scares me to death.
Annie Lennox

Call no man happy till he is dead.
Aeschylus

I do not fear death because when I am it is not , and when it is, I am not.
Epicurus

I fear death no more than I fear the emptiness of the time before I lived.
Hume

And here's one just for YOU.
Some people are so afraid do die that they never begin to live.
Henry Van Dyke

You do not know "all sane men", and thus your statement is not a possible object of your experience.

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Re: There is no such thing as knowing

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:28 pm

chaz wyman wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote: All that you say above is surely vindictive, t!

BoooooHooooo. You can dish it out but you can't take it.

You said "death is what all sane men fear most".

A list of insane people and their view of death....

The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.
Mark Twain

Suicide is man's way of telling God, "You can't fire me - I quit."
Bill Maher

The fear of death is the most unjustified of all fears, for there's no risk of accident for someone who's dead.
Albert Einstein

Dying is easy, it's living that scares me to death.
Annie Lennox

Call no man happy till he is dead.
Aeschylus

I do not fear death because when I am it is not , and when it is, I am not.
Epicurus

I fear death no more than I fear the emptiness of the time before I lived.
Hume

And here's one just for YOU.
Some people are so afraid do die that they never begin to live.
Henry Van Dyke

You do not know "all sane men", and thus your statement is not a possible object of your experience.
All the above are individuals that are obviously trying to convince themselves that they do not fear dying; denial, so as not to be encumbered by their greatest fear!

"Fear of death

Psychologists have addressed the hypothesis that fear of death motivates religious commitment, and that it may be alleviated by assurances about an afterlife. Empirical research on this topic has been equivocal.[citation needed]
According to Kahoe and Dunn, people who are most firm in their faith and attend religious services weekly are the least afraid of dying. A survey of people in various Christian denominations showed a negative correlation between fear of death and religious concern.[32]

In another study, data from a sample of white, Christian men and women were used to test the hypothesis that traditional, church-centered religiousness and de-institutionalized spiritual seeking are distinct ways of approaching fear of death in old age. Both religiousness and spirituality were related to positive psychosocial functioning, but only church-centered religiousness protected subjects against the fear of death.[33]"

--Wikipedia--


and:

World Religions by percentage:

Christians 33.32%
Muslims 21.02%
Hindus 13.26%
Buddhists 5.84%
Other 12.48%
Non Religious 14.09%

--Wikipedia--


and:

"While there are more atheists than ever before as global population continually increases, the atheist percentage of the total population seem to be declining. This may be because birth rates in religious societies are much higher.[13] This is similar to a 2002 survey by Adherents.com, which estimates the proportion of the world's people who are "secular, non-religious, agnostics and atheists" at about 14%.[14]"

--Wikipedia--


and:

"Narrated by Golden Globe Winner Gabriel Byrne (Usual Suspects, HBO’s In Treatment, Miller’s Crossing), this 7-time Best Documentary award-winning film is the most comprehensive and mind-blowing investigation of humankind’s relationship with death ever captured on film. Hailed by many viewers as a “life-transformational film,” Flight from Death uncovers death anxiety as a possible root cause of many of our behaviors on a psychological, spiritual, and cultural level.

Following the work of the late cultural anthropologist, Ernest Becker, and his Pulitzer Prize-winning book Denial of Death, this documentary explores the ongoing research of a group of social psychologists that may forever change the way we look at ourselves and the world. Over the last twenty-five years, this team of researchers has conducted over 300 laboratory studies, which substantiate Becker’s claim that death anxiety is a primary motivator of human behavior, specifically aggression and violence."

"Flight from Death features an all-star cast of scholars, authors, philosophers, and researchers including Sam Keen, Robert Jay Lifton, Irvin Yalom, and Sheldon Solomon"

--hxxp://wp.flightfromdeath.com/synopsis/--


So the facts seem to bear out my assertion that the majority fear death. But let's face it, what we're really talking about is how many would admit their fear of death, I would say anyone that takes any measures to save their lives from anything, be it an illness or otherwise, fears loosing their life, i.e., fears death, as certainly death is the opposite of life, which only a fool would assume means that there is necessarily any kind of substance of death to fear. Merely one fears death because they see that they'd much rather be alive, and especially don't want to experience the act of dying. The act of dying, surely, is more closely related to death than it is living.

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Arising_uk
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Re: There is no such thing as knowing

Post by Arising_uk » Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:53 pm

SpheresOfBalance wrote:... The act of dying, surely, is more closely related to death than it is living.
How so? As there is nothing to relate to in death? Surely the act of dying is the ultimate expression of being alive? Not nice and long to be delayed if possible but many at the end wish for death rather than life. There's also Buddhists who appear to be able to sit quite calmly through it.

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Re: There is no such thing as knowing

Post by chaz wyman » Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:13 am

SpheresOfBalance wrote:
chaz wyman wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote: All that you say above is surely vindictive, t!

BoooooHooooo. You can dish it out but you can't take it.

You said "death is what all sane men fear most".

A list of insane people and their view of death....

The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.
Mark Twain

Suicide is man's way of telling God, "You can't fire me - I quit."
Bill Maher

The fear of death is the most unjustified of all fears, for there's no risk of accident for someone who's dead.
Albert Einstein

Dying is easy, it's living that scares me to death.
Annie Lennox

Call no man happy till he is dead.
Aeschylus

I do not fear death because when I am it is not , and when it is, I am not.
Epicurus

I fear death no more than I fear the emptiness of the time before I lived.
Hume

And here's one just for YOU.
Some people are so afraid do die that they never begin to live.
Henry Van Dyke

You do not know "all sane men", and thus your statement is not a possible object of your experience.
All the above are individuals that are obviously trying to convince themselves that they do not fear dying; denial, so as not to be encumbered by their greatest fear!

You only say that because you are a pussy are have no overcome your petty fear of death.
It is the attitude of a person who is ignorant or stupid to fear death. Death is nothing. I should no more be scared of non-existence than I should be fearful of the non existence of the time before I was born.
What are you so scared of?


....]So the facts seem to bear out my assertion that the majority fear death.

The facts bear out the assertion that morons like Macdonald's. None of this supports your assertion that only insane people do not fear death.
Why don't you stop and think for a change?

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Re: There is no such thing as knowing

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:05 am

SpheresOfBalance wrote: All that you say above is surely vindictive, t!
chaz wyman wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
chaz wyman wrote:BoooooHooooo. You can dish it out but you can't take it.

You said "death is what all sane men fear most".

A list of insane people and their view of death....

The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.
Mark Twain

Suicide is man's way of telling God, "You can't fire me - I quit."
Bill Maher

The fear of death is the most unjustified of all fears, for there's no risk of accident for someone who's dead.
Albert Einstein

Dying is easy, it's living that scares me to death.
Annie Lennox

Call no man happy till he is dead.
Aeschylus

I do not fear death because when I am it is not , and when it is, I am not.
Epicurus

I fear death no more than I fear the emptiness of the time before I lived.
Hume

And here's one just for YOU.
Some people are so afraid do die that they never begin to live.
Henry Van Dyke

You do not know "all sane men", and thus your statement is not a possible object of your experience.
All the above are individuals that are obviously trying to convince themselves that they do not fear dying; denial, so as not to be encumbered by their greatest fear!

You only say that because you are a pussy are have no overcome your petty fear of death.
It is the attitude of a person who is ignorant or stupid to fear death. Death is nothing. I should no more be scared of non-existence than I should be fearful of the non existence of the time before I was born.
What are you so scared of?

Yes you are in denial, you fear to admit that you fear it. You thrust your chest out as you say words that are hollow, as if to prove to yourself that you are brave, that you are macho; all just bells and whistles! The facts bear this out. You're just a little man that likes discord as long as it's in a controlled environment.



....]So the facts seem to bear out my assertion that the majority fear death.

The facts bear out the assertion that morons like Macdonald's. None of this supports your assertion that only insane people do not fear death.
Why don't you stop and think for a change?

You can say anything, but the facts stand by themselves. The scientific study has the answers, not some small fry in the UK, that likes to argue on a forum.

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Re: There is no such thing as knowing

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:16 am

Arising_uk wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote:... The act of dying, surely, is more closely related to death than it is living.
How so? As there is nothing to relate to in death?
Exactly!
Surely the act of dying is the ultimate expression of being alive?
Not at all, I would say that being born is.
Not nice and long to be delayed if possible but many at the end wish for death rather than life.
While caught in an inescapable event, so as to end the pain.
There's also Buddhists who appear to be able to sit quite calmly through it.
Yes, appear! but how could one possibly know what's going on, on the inside.

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Arising_uk
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Re: There is no such thing as knowing

Post by Arising_uk » Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:33 pm

SpheresOfBalance wrote:Exactly!
Then you can't know about it, which counters your argument I'd have thought?
Not at all, I would say that being born is.
Fair point, so the culmination of living and how you face it a reflection of how you've lived.
While caught in an inescapable event, so as to end the pain.
So death not the ultimate fear?
Yes, appear! but how could one possibly know what's going on, on the inside.
:shock: Because they are sitting there calmly.

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Re: There is no such thing as knowing

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:35 am

SpheresOfBalance wrote:... The act of dying, surely, is more closely related to death than it is living.
AUK: How so? As there is nothing to relate to in death?
SoB: Exactly!
AUK:Then you can't know about it, which counters your argument I'd have thought?
One can be sure of what it's not.
AUK: Surely the act of dying is the ultimate expression of being alive?
SoB: Not at all, I would say that being born is.
AUK: Fair point, so the culmination of living and how you face it a reflection of how you've lived.
To conceive of a 'highest point' is ambiguous, highest point from what/whose perspective.
AUK: Not nice and long to be delayed if possible but many at the end wish for death rather than life.
SoB: While caught in an inescapable event, so as to end the pain.
AUK: So death not the ultimate fear?
Death is the ultimate pain, as it includes that which I have said and more.
AUK: There's also Buddhists who appear to be able to sit quite calmly through it.
SoB: Yes, appear! but how could one possibly know what's going on, on the inside.
AUK: :shock: Because they are sitting there calmly.
:shock: You said, quite accurately, if it be true at all, they "appear to." I spoke of their inner self which may not be apparent.

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Arising_uk
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Re: There is no such thing as knowing

Post by Arising_uk » Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:44 pm

SpheresOfBalance wrote:One can be sure of what it's not.
Well its not living thats for sure but there is nothing else to consider.
To conceive of a 'highest point' is ambiguous, highest point from what/whose perspective.
Eh! There is only one perspective in this matter, the one who is dying.
Death is the ultimate pain, as it includes that which I have said and more.
Death is no pain at all, unless you mean the dying? And even there its not universally so.
:shock: You said, quite accurately, if it be true at all, they "appear to." I spoke of their inner self which may not be apparent.
You can't have it all ways. If you're saying that 'inside' they are writhing about in pain I'd question your definition of pain as they are sitting there apparently quite calmly? Also, if I can't know this 'inner self' then how can you assert it? Apart from that, they still appear to be unafraid of dying? Which you say is not a possible case.

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Re: There is no such thing as knowing

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:03 am

Arising_uk wrote:SoB: Expanded, and addressed below, sentence by sentence.
SpheresOfBalance wrote:... The act of dying, surely, is more closely related to death than it is living.
How so? As there is nothing to relate to in death?
Surely the act of dying is the ultimate expression of being alive?
Not nice and long to be delayed if possible but many at the end wish for death rather than life.
There's also Buddhists who appear to be able to sit quite calmly through it.
AUK: How so? As there is nothing to relate to in death?
SoB: Exactly!
AUK:Then you can't know about it, which counters your argument I'd have thought?
SoB: One can be sure of what it's not.
AUK: Well its not living thats for sure but there is nothing else to consider.
It would seem that you have forgotten that we are speaking of the act of dying.
(This then, is the reason I don't like the way you delete everything but the last entry)
AUK: Surely the act of dying is the ultimate expression of being alive?
SoB: Not at all, I would say that being born is.
AUK: Fair point, so the culmination of living and how you face it a reflection of how you've lived.
SoB: To conceive of a 'highest point' is ambiguous, highest point from what/whose perspective.
AUK: Eh! There is only one perspective in this matter, the one who is dying.
Yes, but you assume that everyone is somehow caught up in this ambiguous 'highest point,' as I see there is no such necessary thing.
AUK: Not nice and long to be delayed if possible but many at the end wish for death rather than life.
SoB: While caught in an inescapable event, so as to end the pain.
AUK: So death not the ultimate fear?
SoB: Death is the ultimate pain, as it includes that which I have said and more.
AUK: Death is no pain at all, unless you mean the dying? And even there its not universally so.
Yes, I see that the act of dying in in fact death, as one is certainly no longer living, and that pain takes many forms.
AUK: There's also Buddhists who appear to be able to sit quite calmly through it.
SoB: Yes, appear! but how could one possibly know what's going on, on the inside.
AUK: :shock: Because they are sitting there calmly.
SoB: :shock: You said, quite accurately, if it be true at all, they "appear to." I spoke of their inner self which may not be apparent.
AUK: You can't have it all ways. If you're saying that 'inside' they are writhing about in pain I'd question your definition of pain as they are sitting there apparently quite calmly? Also, if I can't know this 'inner self' then how can you assert it? Apart from that, they still appear to be unafraid of dying? Which you say is not a possible case.
Again, you speak of their appearance, so I assume you have witnessed this, first hand?
Fear is an emotion contained within ones mind, and while there may be a physical expression of it, it does not necessarily follow, that no physical expression, means no fear in ones mind; non sequitur.

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Re: There is no such thing as knowing

Post by reasonvemotion » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:42 am

I don't fear death.

Only the suffering I may have to endure.

I am thinking SOB, you fear death because you approach it from your ego's point of view.

You said you know there will be people who will mourn your death.

Is that important to you?

For me, death means, the dead know nothing.

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Re: There is no such thing as knowing

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:29 am

reasonvemotion wrote:I don't fear death.
So you say.

Only the suffering I may have to endure.
And that my friend is death.

I am thinking SOB, you fear death because you approach it from your ego's point of view.
The argument is not that I fear death, it's that everyone does! Nothing worse than an uninformed opponent. Reading, is in fact, good for ones argument.

You said you know there will be people who will mourn your death.
For everyone that knows love, this is true, I'm sorry, do you not know love?

Is that important to you?
Is love important to you?

For me, death means, the dead know nothing.
Yes, this is what one may try to convince themselves, a philosophy to blanket the fear.

I do not fear the state of being dead, because I see that in that state there is nothing, I do not fear nothing. But the state of being dead and death are two different things. For me death starts as soon as one knows they are dying, and ends once they are in the state of being dead. The state of being dead, knows no fear, in fact, it knows nothing, unless of course the constituents (elements) of which we are all comprised, iron, aluminum, hydrogen, oxygen, carbon, etc, upon returning from whence they came, hold some sort of memory, caused by the specific electromagnetic fields as experienced by any particular life, during it's time of particular celestial patterns, and of that particular state of existence, i.e., a part of a human, thus in proximity, and flowing through, that particular brains generated electromagnetic field, all of which together, a summation of this particular pattern of life, having been fundamentally changed on a quantum level, yielding this uncertainty principle, which is actually a reflection of the particular set of differences between these particular combinations of electromagnetically influenced particles, so as to continually create life, as they're re-constituted, in the next particular life-form, ever changed, by the previous particular life, this memory of quantum electromagnetic imprint.

One has to always remember that we are in fact born/consist of, this universe, that was once only comprised of a singular element, H2, that only ever was combined to create different, more complex elements, a never ending birthing machine of difference, we are in fact stardust, and that any particular human is comprised of any particular set of these constituents in and of any particular time, yielding any particular entity. If my hypothesis be true, I even more so, wouldn't fear the state of being dead, I mean, as if I'd really be missing out on something, that I wouldn't want to miss. I might almost welcome it. I'd just exist in another measure of time, this relativity, most have issues reconciling. ;-)

Is there in fact, nothing after death, on this quantum level, or maybe beyond, that contains remnants of previous cycles of electromagnetic influence, as these particles travel, supposedly randomly, throughout, all of time?

Could we currently possibly know this, or otherwise?

I am confident that mankind shall eventually circumnavigate the universe, if not only in these terms, if it doesn't, by our relative terms, take eons of infinities to be completed. How much travel has your particular set of constituents completed? What particular ancient celestial events course through your particular veins, cells, genome?

...Mind?

...Consciousness?

What shall we find next, in this universe of electromagnetic particles, as we peer at this principle, of uncertainty?

Is it a sort of god, (Creator), this electromagnetic influence, is it in fact, in us all, though some may want to take credit? I see that in truth, there is only one, though some may fight it.
Answer my questions above, please?

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Re: There is no such thing as knowing

Post by Bernard » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:03 pm

No fear means no adrenaline when it may be most needed.

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Re: There is no such thing as knowing

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:45 pm

"Fear is an emotion induced by a perceived threat which causes entities to quickly pull away from it and usually hide. It is a basic survival mechanism occurring in response to a specific stimulus, such as pain or the threat of danger. In short, fear is the ability to recognize danger leading to an urge to confront it or flee from it (also known as the fight-or-flight response) but in extreme cases of fear (horror and terror) a freeze or paralysis response is possible."

--Wikipedia--

How could one possibly know, that one that appears, not to fear death, is not in fact in a state of mental paralysis, that they are in fact frozen, trying to hide from it, in concordance with that of a basic survival mechanism.

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