A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Anything to do with gender and the status of women and men.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Post Reply
Flannel Jesus
Posts: 2587
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:09 pm

A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by Flannel Jesus »

To the people who think gender is entirely a social construct, the existence of trans people raises some interesting philosophical contradictions.

You see, if gender in fact is biological, then being trans imo can actually make sense and be meaningful. Gender, biologically, would be a fact about sometimes neurology, presumably. And one could imagine that it's possible that a person born with a penis could have, in some sense, a female-ish neurology. And that could give you context for why people with penises want to live as women, be recognized as women, and have surgeries and hormone therapies to make their bodies more female, to match their neurology.

On the other hand, if gender is entirely a social construct, then a lot of that stuff above doesn't really make sense. If gender is a social construct, then there's no meaningful difference between "I was born with a penis and want to live as a woman" Vs "I'm a man but I like wearing dresses and doing and behaving in ways that are seen as traditionally feminine". Those two statements become almost indistinguishable. And someone in that boat doesn't need a sex change, or to be recognized as a woman, what they really would need, hypothetically, is to live in a society where men are allowed to have feminine preferences and behaviours.

And yet if you talk to trans people, even trans people who insist that gender really is just a social construct, and you offer up that theoretical world where men are simply allowed, with no social penalty, to have entirely feminine behaviours and preferences, you'll find that that's not sufficient for them. A lot of them say they would still want to take hormones, say they might still seek sex change surgeries.

And that to me indicates that the "gender" of people who are "trans-gender" runs deeper than something that is just merely a social construct.

I'm not of course saying that every aspect of gender isn't a social construct, that every aspect of gender is biological. There are certainly parts of gender expression which are entirely cultural. But there does, I think, seem to be something deeper than the social and cultural aspects of gender that people who are trans-gender illuminate.
Last edited by Flannel Jesus on Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Iwannaplato
Posts: 6718
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:55 pm

Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-nesd

Post by Iwannaplato »

Yes, there's a contradiction in there. Some trans people are dualists. IOW they would say that their soul (or whatever term they use) incarnated in the wrong form - (the wrong biological sex). So, they want to move their body to fit with their soul. They also would think that gender and biological sex have a connection, but they got a raw deal. That's makes sense. One may not agree with dualisms or this particular kind of dualism, but it is consistant. It makes sense that they want to change their bodies. It makes sense that they do not feel like the biological sex they were born with. Their body does not match the personality, tendencies, desires that go with the other biological sex.

But in the Left in general, these days, you have the idea that there is no connection between personality, interests, temperment or anything else with biology. In this scenario it cannot make sense to say I feel like a woman (if born in a male body). And this view should see the transperson, generally, as confused. There is no such thing as feeling like a woman (really, for anyone) and thus needed to switch gender/sex. And certainly no reason to get surgery.

These two models don't seem to get noticed much except by some people who just hate trans people (and the rest of the letters) and then a few people who, like myself and presumably FJ, who would support people making decisions from either point of view.

But I do think the contradiction is likely messing with the minds of children and young people, ironically enough I think it primarily adversely affects gays.

Because they may now think that they need to change their bodies and go through hormone blockers and more, when in fact, they have no need to change their bodies, they may well, later find. The small percentage who are truly not at home in there bodies are less adversely affected. I would also be concerned about boys and girls who feel like they are quite different from the traditional notions of their sex/gender.

Also, just being told contradictory things, I think, is damaging. Because it trains us to deny cognitive dissonance. Especially if the social climate is so charged by hate on all sides as it is now.
Last edited by Iwannaplato on Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Flannel Jesus
Posts: 2587
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:09 pm

Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by Flannel Jesus »

Iwannaplato wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:47 amAnd this view should see the transperson, generally, as confused.
That view should see that confusion as a symptom of living in a society with very strict social paths for men and women though. The solution, in this view, would be NOT for people to transition genders, but to allow people to behave however feminine or masculine they want without any gender transition necessary. Right? Maybe...
Skepdick
Posts: 14366
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by Skepdick »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:36 am To the people who think gender is entirely a social construct, the existence of trans people raises some interesting philosophical contradictions.
None that the status quo doesn't already rise.

How many sub-categories of humans are there?

You are trapped in the stupidity of categorical language.
Flannel Jesus wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:36 am If gender is a social construct, then there's no meaningful difference between...
What's the difference between a "meaningful difference" and a "non-meaningful difference"?
Last edited by Skepdick on Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 13983
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

What does that even mean 'Gender is a social construct'?? Please explain.
Iwannaplato
Posts: 6718
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:55 pm

Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by Iwannaplato »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:49 am
Iwannaplato wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:47 amAnd this view should see the transperson, generally, as confused.
That view should see that confusion as a symptom of living in a society with very strict social paths for men and women though. The solution, in this view, would be NOT for people to transition genders, but to allow people to behave however feminine or masculine they want without any gender transition necessary. Right? Maybe...
Well, to me that's traditional feminism. You're born a woman and you want to be an electrician, keep your hair short and have sex with women...you can absolutely still be a woman. The box is gone. Don't put us in boxes. I think that's a great base. Likewise on the male side.

The people truly not at home in their bodies are still going to want more. And that can be dealt with. But now the messages are all over the place.
Flannel Jesus
Posts: 2587
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:09 pm

Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by Flannel Jesus »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:57 am What does that even mean 'Gender is a social construct'?? Please explain.
That would be up to the people who believe that to explain, I couldn't do it justice because I think it's only a half truth at best.

To me, it means that any noticed patterns in the difference between male and female behaviours and preferences is entirely due to socialization and what we as a culture normalize. There is nothing you can notice in the differences in men and women that has a biological explanation.
Last edited by Flannel Jesus on Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
Skepdick
Posts: 14366
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by Skepdick »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:57 am What does that even mean 'Gender is a social construct'?? Please explain.
What is it that you don't understand? Please explain.

You have a vagina. Fine.
You have two X chromosomes. Fine.
You ovulate and menstruate. Fine.
You can fall pregnant and give birth. Fine.
You can provide an infinite list of facts/properties and features about yourself. Fine.

But what makes you a "woman"?
Last edited by Skepdick on Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 13983
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:49 am
Iwannaplato wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:47 amAnd this view should see the transperson, generally, as confused.
That view should see that confusion as a symptom of living in a society with very strict social paths for men and women though. The solution, in this view, would be NOT for people to transition genders, but to allow people to behave however feminine or masculine they want without any gender transition necessary. Right? Maybe...
That's exactly how it has always been. Who's stopping them? Now we have moronic parents of 'tomboy' girls dragging them off for hormone replacement therapy, when parents just used to accept their tomboy daughters who generally grew out of it after a few years.
User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 13983
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Skepdick wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:59 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:57 am What does that even mean 'Gender is a social construct'?? Please explain.
What is it that you don't understand? Please explain.

You have a vagina. Fine.
You have two X chromosomes. Fine.
You ovulate and menstruate. Fine.
You can fall pregnant and give birth. Fine.
You can provide an infinite list of facts/properties and features about yourself. Fine.

But what makes you a "woman"?
Umm, just what you listed? Actually just the second one would have been fine.
Flannel Jesus
Posts: 2587
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:09 pm

Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by Flannel Jesus »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:00 am
Flannel Jesus wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:49 am
Iwannaplato wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:47 amAnd this view should see the transperson, generally, as confused.
That view should see that confusion as a symptom of living in a society with very strict social paths for men and women though. The solution, in this view, would be NOT for people to transition genders, but to allow people to behave however feminine or masculine they want without any gender transition necessary. Right? Maybe...
That's exactly how it has always been.
Has it? I'm not aware of this reality where there's no penalty for "wrong-gender" behaviours. Especially if we're talking about America, where nearly half the population thinks gay sex should be a criminal offense.

No, I definitely don't think that's exactly how it's always been
Skepdick
Posts: 14366
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by Skepdick »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:01 am
Skepdick wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:59 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:57 am What does that even mean 'Gender is a social construct'?? Please explain.
What is it that you don't understand? Please explain.

You have a vagina. Fine.
You have two X chromosomes. Fine.
You ovulate and menstruate. Fine.
You can fall pregnant and give birth. Fine.
You can provide an infinite list of facts/properties and features about yourself. Fine.

But what makes you a "woman"?
Umm, just what you listed? Actually just the second one would have been fine.
So having two X chromosomes makes you a woman? Why?

Surely having two X chromosomes makes you someone who has two X chromosomes?
User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 13983
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:02 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:00 am
Flannel Jesus wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:49 am
That view should see that confusion as a symptom of living in a society with very strict social paths for men and women though. The solution, in this view, would be NOT for people to transition genders, but to allow people to behave however feminine or masculine they want without any gender transition necessary. Right? Maybe...
That's exactly how it has always been.
Has it? I'm not aware of this reality where there's no penalty for "wrong-gender" behaviours. Especially if we're talking about America, where nearly half the population thinks gay sex should be a criminal offense.

No, I definitely don't think that's exactly how it's always been
Nothing to do with being gay, especially as a large percentage of those 'transwimmin' decide that they are lesbian 'wimmin' (how very convenient).
User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 13983
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Skepdick wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:02 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:01 am
Skepdick wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:59 am
What is it that you don't understand? Please explain.

You have a vagina. Fine.
You have two X chromosomes. Fine.
You ovulate and menstruate. Fine.
You can fall pregnant and give birth. Fine.
You can provide an infinite list of facts/properties and features about yourself. Fine.

But what makes you a "woman"?
Umm, just what you listed? Actually just the second one would have been fine.
So having two X chromosomes makes you a woman? Why?

Surely having two X chromosomes makes you someone who has two X chromosomes?
A man trying to tell a woman 'what' she is. Fuck off.
Flannel Jesus
Posts: 2587
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:09 pm

Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by Flannel Jesus »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:04 am
Flannel Jesus wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:02 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:00 am

That's exactly how it has always been.
Has it? I'm not aware of this reality where there's no penalty for "wrong-gender" behaviours. Especially if we're talking about America, where nearly half the population thinks gay sex should be a criminal offense.

No, I definitely don't think that's exactly how it's always been
Nothing to do with being gay, especially as a large percentage of those 'transwimmin' decide that they are lesbian 'wimmin' (how very convenient).
It has a lot to do with being gay. You say it's always been that men are allowed to behave like women with no social penalties. I'm literally showing you a clear example where that is decidedly not the case
Post Reply