EXEPTIONALISM THE SEED OF FASCISM

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popeye1945
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Re: EXEPTIONALISM THE SEED OF FASCISM

Post by popeye1945 »

Hi Gary,
could you expand upon your idea, how is RC's ad hominem justifiable in any way?
[/quote]

I think it's justifiable to the extent that, although (from what I have gleaned off his posts) RC Saunders believes that the US has a long way to go before reaching any kind of ideal state of affairs, we are at least in a far better state of affairs than people in the Soviet Union were in. As far as being an "ad hominem", it appears to me that RC was asking a question, not making an assertion about you.
[/quote]

Gary,

I question your motivation here. I repeat, it is never ok to direct the argument away of the subject at hand to involve the character of the other person. It is a logical fallacy and the proverbially the low road away from honest dialogue.
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Re: EXEPTIONALISM THE SEED OF FASCISM

Post by Gary Childress »

popeye1945 wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 2:45 pm
Hi Gary,
could you expand upon your idea, how is RC's ad hominem justifiable in any way?
I think it's justifiable to the extent that, although (from what I have gleaned off his posts) RC Saunders believes that the US has a long way to go before reaching any kind of ideal state of affairs, we are at least in a far better state of affairs than people in the Soviet Union were in. As far as being an "ad hominem", it appears to me that RC was asking a question, not making an assertion about you.
Gary,

I question your motivation here. I repeat, it is never ok to direct the argument away of the subject at hand to involve the character of the other person. It is a logical fallacy and the proverbially the low road away from honest dialogue.
If you question my motivation, then you're doing little more than RC was, don't you think?

EDIT: As far as being "never ok" to direct the argument away from the subject at hand, I disagree. If someone wants to ask a question in order to determine if their own suspicions are true or not, then it's their right. You don't have to answer him if you don't want but he can certainly ask the question if he wants.
popeye1945
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Re: EXEPTIONALISM THE SEED OF FASCISM

Post by popeye1945 »

Gary,

I question your motivation here. I repeat, it is never ok to direct the argument away of the subject at hand to involve the character of the other person. It is a logical fallacy and the proverbially the low road away from honest dialogue.
[/quote]

If you question my motivation, then you're doing little more than RC was, don't you think?

EDIT: As far as being "never ok" to direct the argument away from the subject at hand, I disagree. If someone wants to ask a question in order to determine if their own suspicions are true or not, then it's their right. You don't have to answer him if you don't want but he can certainly ask the question if he wants.
[/quote]

Gary.
When you ignore the presence of logic fallacy one has no other choice than to assume you do not know about logical fallacies or there is some other motive--- NO?
Gary Childress
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Re: EXEPTIONALISM THE SEED OF FASCISM

Post by Gary Childress »

popeye1945 wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 3:43 pm Gary,

I question your motivation here. I repeat, it is never ok to direct the argument away of the subject at hand to involve the character of the other person. It is a logical fallacy and the proverbially the low road away from honest dialogue.
If you question my motivation, then you're doing little more than RC was, don't you think?

EDIT: As far as being "never ok" to direct the argument away from the subject at hand, I disagree. If someone wants to ask a question in order to determine if their own suspicions are true or not, then it's their right. You don't have to answer him if you don't want but he can certainly ask the question if he wants.
Gary.
When you ignore the presence of logic fallacy one has no other choice than to assume you do not know about logical fallacies or there is some other motive--- NO?
You have plenty of other choices. Responding the way you did was not a binary decision.
Last edited by Gary Childress on Sun Feb 13, 2022 4:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: EXEPTIONALISM THE SEED OF FASCISM

Post by Gary Childress »

Why do you think RC Saunder's post was anymore a fallacy than your questioning of my motivations?
popeye1945
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Re: EXEPTIONALISM THE SEED OF FASCISM

Post by popeye1945 »

Gary Childress,

You have plenty of other choices. Responding the way you did was not a binary decision.
[/quote]

Gary, what do you imagine the purpose of established logical fallacies are then, I am all ears!
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Re: EXEPTIONALISM THE SEED OF FASCISM

Post by RCSaunders »

Gary Childress wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 2:36 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 2:17 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:24 pm

I think RC Saunders' point may be something along the lines of how a person who is detached from practical reality can sometimes begin to drift in their thoughts toward absurd ideas.
Hi Gary,
could you expand upon your idea, how is RC's ad hominem justifiable in any way?
I think it's justifiable to the extent that, although (from what I have gleaned off his posts) RC Saunders believes that the US has a long way to go before reaching any kind of ideal state of affairs, we are at least in a far better state of affairs than people in the Soviet Union were in. As far as being an "ad hominem", it appears to me that RC was asking a question, not making an assertion about you.
Good grief. I haven't defended any view, especially not the so-called. "American exceptionalism," view.

I have not accused anyone of anything or denigrated anyone or their views but am accused of, ad hominem, which is only a fallacy when it's used as an argument. I haven't made an argument. I have no idea why everyone has their panties in a ward over my questions--but it does seem suspicious, doesn't it?

I do not embrace any ideology or, "-ism," including anything called, "exceptionalism." Nevertheless I do believe there are exceptional individuals in this world who are intelligent, honest, self-motivated creators who are benevolent in all their relationships with others and never a threat to anyone else--individuals of exceptional integrity, virtue, and character. They are rare individuals, and because they are rare, most people neither understand or appreciate them, and in fact, usually fear, envy, and resent them. What I have noticed is while such rare individuals are exceptions, they never identify themselves as exceptional, but the great mass of lesser humanity, who despise their virtues, will use the word, "exceptionalism," as a form of pejorative to castigate anyone who does not conform to the common collective view of humanity.

When someone writes, "Exceptionalism is the seed of fascism," it is itself an, ad hominem, meant to castigate anyone or anything that does not conform to some accepted way of thinking or living and disparage any view that an individual has that is not the socially accepted one. It is an intentional denigration of anyone who dares to be different.
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Re: EXEPTIONALISM THE SEED OF FASCISM

Post by Gary Childress »

popeye1945 wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 5:34 pm Gary Childress,

You have plenty of other choices. Responding the way you did was not a binary decision.
Gary, what do you imagine the purpose of established logical fallacies are then, I am all ears!
[/quote]

I guess I'm just confused how you questioning my "motive" for responding to your question as I did is somehow NOT an ad hominem on your part but RS Saunders asking you what you do for a living is? I'm all ears if you would care to enlighten me.
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Re: EXEPTIONALISM THE SEED OF FASCISM

Post by Sculptor »

Gary Childress wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:20 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 6:25 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:06 pm Exceptionalism is the seed of fascism. Its traditional self-congratulations for being the best has led in the past to those submerged within it, to a relinquishing of their humanity. Nazi Germany, Japan, Italy, and arguably present-day America are prime examples. One way of conditioning the public that it is superior to other people in other nations is the distortion of history, selective propogranda and creation of the future out of fantasy or mythology. When mythology is believed, it becomes religion and exceptionalism has become America's religion. The world stood in awe at the Nazi monster war machine, unstoppable it seemed. The Russians however crushed that monster war machine and chased the Germans across Europe all the way back to Berlin, costing the lives of twenty-seven million Russians, were they given their due or great respect---you know the answer is no!

Why, the national ego. I grew up thinking that America was the main agent of the victory over Nazi Germany, it wasn't until later years when I had the leisure time to study a little history that the truth was revealed to me. America is an empire, it really is absurd to deny it, but that does not stop the ignorant, which is most of the population, it's not an accident, the population is being played like a violin. An ignorant population is easier to control than an intelligently informed one. America has not been a kind master and much of the population in their exceptionalism mistakes fear for respect.

Moderators-- please transfer to political philosophy.
I had a similar experience.
History taught about D-Day, but of Kursk it was almost silent. Kursk is where the war was effectively won. This still is the largest ever military exchange in history. The number are staggering and losses shocking. It make D-Day look like a picnic. After which Germany was a broken force.
The other voteface concerning WW2 is the reasons why the Japanese finally surrendered. I am indebted to the work of Howard Zynn's work. It has been shown as eaily as 1+1=2 that the atoms bombs were why Japan surrendered. That is self congratualtion by the US, Zynn tells us it was more to do with the massive Russian army which had just taken Manchuria in a staggeringly quick few days and was immediately about to invade Japan - a thing that the US had limited resources to, and zero appetite to achieve.

It is worth reflecting on the massive role of Russian in WW2 - they who lost more than any other country. Possibly more losses than all allied countries put together.
This, together with the following cold war started against the Soviet Union by the USA should give us some clue about the Russian psychology.
But blundering USA ,with never a bomb dropped on it, is not capable of understanding this, and continues to stumble ever eastwar in an undeclared war. Its not even like they have a ideological excuse. Maybe it never was about "commies", but just a primeval need to be the biggest bully on the world? And NATO is its instrument.
Stalin's Soviet Union was equally as barbaric as Germany.
More AMerican exceptionalism. GI's raped their way across Europe just like any other army.
It's called war.
And Stalin was fine with helping Hitler invade Poland.
They were Allies at the time. And at the same time the US refused to join the war, refusing to help France,and Belgium until Hitler made up their mind for them.
True, the strategy of the Western Allies was to allow Hitler and Stalin to beat each other to pieces for a while instead of taking on Hitler in what would have been an extremely costly full frontal assault.
A frontal assult that Russia paid for. What AMericans cannot understand is the impact of real war. Germany exterminated 6 million Russian civilians; they ahd a right to be brutal in return.
Wheras the US did not a get a single bomb dropped on them.
It's pointless discussing something when you only have one side of it.
The Western Allied leaders were thankfully a bit more cautious than that.
Fuck off. They lacked the will to win.
Would you prefer that our military planners had thrown our grandfathers' generation into a meat grinder in order to quickly defeat Germany at all costs? Was it not enough that those in the merchant marines, RAF, or US Army Air Corps, paid a dear price in destroying German industry and in getting lend-lease products to the Soviets? As I understand it, the Soviets may not have won at Kursk had it not been for the many Western Allied pilots and merchant marines who paid a dear price while bombing German industrial centers or getting the Soviets desperately needed material to help them prosecute the war. The Soviets didn't do it single-handedly.

And we wouldn't have been in a war in the Pacific had the US not stood up against Japan's invasion of China with embargos; prompting Japan to invade the DEI in an attempt to get oil to keep their war machine going.

I mean, if you all want to be fans of the Soviet Union, then you might want to consider what our lives would be like today if the US were or had been anything like the Soviet Union or had the Soviet philosophy prevailed in history. It seems to me that lauding the Soviet Union makes about as much sense as lauding Nazi Germany. Be thankful we live in relatively free societies. And be thankful that our grandfathers survived the 1940s long enough to have our parents.
You are the perfect example of exceptionalism.
Run along now.
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Re: EXEPTIONALISM THE SEED OF FASCISM

Post by Gary Childress »

Sculptor wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 7:16 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:20 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 6:25 pm

I had a similar experience.
History taught about D-Day, but of Kursk it was almost silent. Kursk is where the war was effectively won. This still is the largest ever military exchange in history. The number are staggering and losses shocking. It make D-Day look like a picnic. After which Germany was a broken force.
The other voteface concerning WW2 is the reasons why the Japanese finally surrendered. I am indebted to the work of Howard Zynn's work. It has been shown as eaily as 1+1=2 that the atoms bombs were why Japan surrendered. That is self congratualtion by the US, Zynn tells us it was more to do with the massive Russian army which had just taken Manchuria in a staggeringly quick few days and was immediately about to invade Japan - a thing that the US had limited resources to, and zero appetite to achieve.

It is worth reflecting on the massive role of Russian in WW2 - they who lost more than any other country. Possibly more losses than all allied countries put together.
This, together with the following cold war started against the Soviet Union by the USA should give us some clue about the Russian psychology.
But blundering USA ,with never a bomb dropped on it, is not capable of understanding this, and continues to stumble ever eastwar in an undeclared war. Its not even like they have a ideological excuse. Maybe it never was about "commies", but just a primeval need to be the biggest bully on the world? And NATO is its instrument.
Stalin's Soviet Union was equally as barbaric as Germany.
More AMerican exceptionalism. GI's raped their way across Europe just like any other army.
It's called war.
And Stalin was fine with helping Hitler invade Poland.
They were Allies at the time. And at the same time the US refused to join the war, refusing to help France,and Belgium until Hitler made up their mind for them.
True, the strategy of the Western Allies was to allow Hitler and Stalin to beat each other to pieces for a while instead of taking on Hitler in what would have been an extremely costly full frontal assault.
A frontal assult that Russia paid for. What AMericans cannot understand is the impact of real war. Germany exterminated 6 million Russian civilians; they ahd a right to be brutal in return.
Wheras the US did not a get a single bomb dropped on them.
It's pointless discussing something when you only have one side of it.
The Western Allied leaders were thankfully a bit more cautious than that.
Fuck off. They lacked the will to win.
Would you prefer that our military planners had thrown our grandfathers' generation into a meat grinder in order to quickly defeat Germany at all costs? Was it not enough that those in the merchant marines, RAF, or US Army Air Corps, paid a dear price in destroying German industry and in getting lend-lease products to the Soviets? As I understand it, the Soviets may not have won at Kursk had it not been for the many Western Allied pilots and merchant marines who paid a dear price while bombing German industrial centers or getting the Soviets desperately needed material to help them prosecute the war. The Soviets didn't do it single-handedly.

And we wouldn't have been in a war in the Pacific had the US not stood up against Japan's invasion of China with embargos; prompting Japan to invade the DEI in an attempt to get oil to keep their war machine going.

I mean, if you all want to be fans of the Soviet Union, then you might want to consider what our lives would be like today if the US were or had been anything like the Soviet Union or had the Soviet philosophy prevailed in history. It seems to me that lauding the Soviet Union makes about as much sense as lauding Nazi Germany. Be thankful we live in relatively free societies. And be thankful that our grandfathers survived the 1940s long enough to have our parents.
You are the perfect example of exceptionalism.
Run along now.
If you think the Western Allies were wrong not to throw our people against a meatgrinder to save Stalin, then, by all means, feel free to lead the charge if it ever happens again.
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Re: EXEPTIONALISM THE SEED OF FASCISM

Post by Gary Childress »

Sculptor wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 7:16 pm More AMerican exceptionalism. GI's raped their way across Europe just like any other army.
It's called war.
I'm not talking about the way ordinary soldiers behaved, I'm talking about Stalin's regime and all the purges and concentration camps. Stalin killed a lot of his own people himself.

They were Allies at the time. And at the same time the US refused to join the war, refusing to help France,and Belgium until Hitler made up their mind for them.
Well, it really wasn't our war until Hitler declared it against us. But we did as much as we could against him with lend-lease and other programs during our neutrality.
What AMericans cannot understand is the impact of real war. Germany exterminated 6 million Russian civilians; they ahd a right to be brutal in return.
Wheras the US did not a get a single bomb dropped on them.
It's pointless discussing something when you only have one side of it.
Yes, it's pointless when all you do is look at one side of the equation. I agree. Stalin proceeded to enslave all of Eastern Europe after the war. Just be glad he didn't make it into your part of town.
Fuck off. They lacked the will to win.
If they lacked the will to win, what do you think they were doing fighting all that time? Just having fun? Of course, they wanted to win. What they didn't want was to commit mass suicide with our troops. Heck, even in the battles we did win against the Germans Allied casualties usually outnumbered theirs. The Germans were a formidable force.
You are the perfect example of exceptionalism.
Run along now.
And you're bonkers.
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Re: EXEPTIONALISM THE SEED OF FASCISM

Post by popeye1945 »

Gary Childress

Gary, what do you imagine the purpose of established logical fallacies are then, I am all ears!
[/quote]

I guess I'm just confused how you questioning my "motive" for responding to your question as I did is somehow NOT an ad hominem on your part but RS Saunders asking you what you do for a living is? I'm all ears if you would care to enlighten me.
[/quote]

Ok, I agree, I should not have questioned your integrity, ad hominem. Tell me though how you cannot see Saunders statements as ad hominem?
popeye1945
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Re: EXEPTIONALISM THE SEED OF FASCISM

Post by popeye1945 »

I think the point is that history for many of us has been distorted to make us believe that the United States was the main agent in defeating the monster Nazi war machine. Just as today's government distorts reality and then the history of their actions regarding Vietnam. The psychopathic powers of the elite in the states has turned the United States into a global crime family. it's crimes are against humanity. If you are American please, listen to what the world thinks, not just your government.
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Re: EXEPTIONALISM THE SEED OF FASCISM

Post by Gary Childress »

popeye1945 wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 8:20 pm Tell me though how you cannot see Saunders statements as ad hominem?
I don't think an argument would be ad hominem if it were true that the personal attributes of the arguer played a role in their argument. For example, X says, "ugliness is a virtue." X says that because X is ugly. Ugliness being a virtue doesn't seem like a very good state of affairs and yet there's really no solid logical argument I can think of to dispute or else prove the statement. It's a matter of opinion. Yet, I personally wouldn't favor ugliness over beauty. So if someone were to say that ugliness is a virtue, then I might suspect that they are saying that because they perceive themselves to be on the beneficial end of the argument. Under that circumstance, I don't think me saying "X is ugly" would be ad hominem.

I could sort of see RC Saunders possibly intending to make a similar point about someone who would think that it's important to laud the Soviet Union for victory in WW2. The Soviet Union seems like it was a horrible government, at least compared to Roosevelt's or Churchill's governments. However, to a person who doesn't do anything productive in society, communism might seem like a wonderful thing because it might be perceived by that person that it would make him or her on par with those who are productive. But maybe I'm wrong. I don't know.
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Re: EXCEPTIONALISM THE SEED OF FASCISM

Post by popeye1945 »

If Saunders, just kept to addressing the issues of what he thought about the qualities of the various governments he would have not created any violations of logic. That it was the Russians who defeated the monster Nazi war machine is just a matter of recorded history, ask any historian worth his salt and this would be verified. The Russians paid a heavy price in doing so, where America and Britain lost about half a million souls in that war each, the Russians lost twenty-seven million. Americans are notorious for distorting history, this is where their sense of exceptionalism is created. The creation of fictions in creating a new future of self-congratulations/exceptionalism, and today you have Republician Fascism tearing the country apart.
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