EXEPTIONALISM THE SEED OF FASCISM

[Age]

What does, "linked to all of humanity," mean. No one doubts that all human beings share certain essential genetic characteristics which makes them the same kind of organisms, but beyond that, what does it mean to say they are, "linked?"

What kind of, "link," are you referring to: biological, economic, cultural, social, and what difference does it make? If individual human being "A" earns his own living, loves and takes care of his family, treats all others with respect and dignity, and never interferes in anyone else's life, how is he, "linked," to human being "B," the bum down the street who lives on welfare, fathers children (he never supports) by different women (he never marries or supports), beats all his girlfriends, is usually drunk, offensive, and belligerent.

Do you regard the fact that most A type human beings do not choose to be, "linked," to B type human beings a problem?

Fear of others leads us all to amalgamate into a limited group of supporters (allies,faction, clan, congregation, race, class). Love of others leads us to welcome others, with trust and charity.

I'm afraid you are confusing that sense of insecurity that comes from a lack of self-assurance, competence, and initiative expressed as, "a need to be part of some collective of others." for, "love of others." To really love someone else expresses itself in a desire to see others achieve and be what they want and choose to do and be, whether we like or agree with it or not. Love of others is not some kind of sickly sentimental self-sacrifice and submission to other, it is allowing others to be free to live as they choose and to enjoy their success and achievement, not worshiping their weaknesses and failures.

You apparently see no difference between those who choose virtue and pursue it and those who choose to squander their lives on immediate pleasure and satisfaction of their animal appetites, which is fine, if you are truly satisfied with that kind of life. I wish you well but do not entertain any illusions that kind of life can be successful. So long as others think you are, "loving," "empathetic," "charitable," and, "loving," whatever you mean by those things and no matter how much actual harm is done by those attitudes, well and good, eh?

'you' ACTUALLY think or BELIEVE that 'you' live a so-called "successful life" "rcsaunders". Yet, here you are living PROOF of just how much you are FAILING and are continuing to FAIL even further here.

[RCSaunders]

Are you even AWARE "rcsaunders" that the so-called "bum down the street" is A 'human being' EXACTLY like 'you' ARE?

He may be exactly like you, but I assure you he's not even remotely like me, and he would be the first to assure you of it.

[RCSaunders]

Fear of others leads us all to amalgamate into a limited group of supporters (allies,faction, clan, congregation, race, class). Love of others leads us to welcome others, with trust and charity.

I'm afraid you are confusing that sense of insecurity that comes from a lack of self-assurance, competence, and initiative expressed as, "a need to be part of some collective of others." for, "love of others." To really love someone else expresses itself in a desire to see others achieve and be what they want and choose to do and be, whether we like or agree with it or not. Love of others is not some kind of sickly sentimental self-sacrifice and submission to other, it is allowing others to be free to live as they choose and to enjoy their success and achievement, not worshiping their weaknesses and failures.

You apparently see no difference between those who choose virtue and pursue it and those who choose to squander their lives on immediate pleasure and satisfaction of their animal appetites, which is fine, if you are truly satisfied with that kind of life. I wish you well but do not entertain any illusions that kind of life can be successful. So long as others think you are, "loving," "empathetic," "charitable," and, "loving," whatever you mean by those things and no matter how much actual harm is done by those attitudes, well and good, eh?

'you' ACTUALLY think or BELIEVE that 'you' live a so-called "successful life" "rcsaunders". Yet, here you are living PROOF of just how much you are FAILING and are continuing to FAIL even further here.

One reason I have totally enjoyed my life of over eighty years is because other's opinions of my life have absolutely no meaning or significance to me. It is impossible to live successfully in this world caring about what other's think or feel. To be a value to one's self or others one must do what they know is right, no matter what others think or believe. Although I desire nothing but the best for others, how they choose to live their life is none of my business, and, so long as all my relationships with others are voluntary and benevolent, how I choose to live mine is no one else's business. Especially not yours!

[Belinda]

I'm afraid you are confusing that sense of insecurity that comes from a lack of self-assurance, competence, and initiative expressed as, "a need to be part of some collective of others." for, "love of others." To really love someone else expresses itself in a desire to see others achieve and be what they want and choose to do and be, whether we like or agree with it or not. Love of others is not some kind of sickly sentimental self-sacrifice and submission to other, it is allowing others to be free to live as they choose and to enjoy their success and achievement, not worshiping their weaknesses and failures.

You apparently see no difference between those who choose virtue and pursue it and those who choose to squander their lives on immediate pleasure and satisfaction of their animal appetites, which is fine, if you are truly satisfied with that kind of life. I wish you well but do not entertain any illusions that kind of life can be successful. So long as others think you are, "loving," "empathetic," "charitable," and, "loving," whatever you mean by those things and no matter how much actual harm is done by those attitudes, well and good, eh?

'you' ACTUALLY think or BELIEVE that 'you' live a so-called "successful life" "rcsaunders". Yet, here you are living PROOF of just how much you are FAILING and are continuing to FAIL even further here.

One reason I have totally enjoyed my life of over eighty years is because other's opinions of my life have absolutely no meaning or significance to me. It is impossible to live successfully in this world caring about what other's think or feel. To be a value to one's self or others one must do what they know is right, no matter what others think or believe. Although I desire nothing but the best for others, how they choose to live their life is none of my business, and, so long as all my relationships with others are voluntary and benevolent, how I choose to live mine is no one else's business. Especially not yours!

In that case,

It is impossible to live successfully in this world caring about what other's think or feel.

why are you writing in the forum?

[RCSaunders]

'you' ACTUALLY think or BELIEVE that 'you' live a so-called "successful life" "rcsaunders". Yet, here you are living PROOF of just how much you are FAILING and are continuing to FAIL even further here.

One reason I have totally enjoyed my life of over eighty years is because other's opinions of my life have absolutely no meaning or significance to me. It is impossible to live successfully in this world caring about what other's think or feel. To be a value to one's self or others one must do what they know is right, no matter what others think or believe. Although I desire nothing but the best for others, how they choose to live their life is none of my business, and, so long as all my relationships with others are voluntary and benevolent, how I choose to live mine is no one else's business. Especially not yours!

In that case,

It is impossible to live successfully in this world caring about what other's think or feel.

why are you writing in the forum?

I enjoy other people when our intercourse is entirely voluntary and to each individual's benefit in that individual's estimation. The exchange of ideas is like all other voluntary exchanges, each offers what they have for others to evaluate and either accept or reject and everyone in that kind of, "free market of ideas," benefits. Not sure why that would be difficult for you to understand? It seems obvious to me. What did you think, "so long as all my relationships with others are voluntary and benevolent," means? What other kind of relationships, other than those that are voluntary and benevolent would you consider good?

[Belinda]

One reason I have totally enjoyed my life of over eighty years is because other's opinions of my life have absolutely no meaning or significance to me. It is impossible to live successfully in this world caring about what other's think or feel. To be a value to one's self or others one must do what they know is right, no matter what others think or believe. Although I desire nothing but the best for others, how they choose to live their life is none of my business, and, so long as all my relationships with others are voluntary and benevolent, how I choose to live mine is no one else's business. Especially not yours!

In that case,

It is impossible to live successfully in this world caring about what other's think or feel.

why are you writing in the forum?

I enjoy other people when our intercourse is entirely voluntary and to each individual's benefit in that individual's estimation. The exchange of ideas is like all other voluntary exchanges, each offers what they have for others to evaluate and either accept or reject and everyone in that kind of, "free market of ideas," benefits. Not sure why that would be difficult for you to understand? It seems obvious to me. What did you think, "so long as all my relationships with others are voluntary and benevolent," means? What other kind of relationships, other than those that are voluntary and benevolent would you consider good?

Voluntary and benevolent can be mutually inconsistent. Sometimes duty is benevolent but not voluntary, and sometimes duty is not benevolent but is voluntary.

Writing in the forum must be inharmonious because, if not, we would learn nothing.

[RCSaunders]

In that case, why are you writing in the forum?

I enjoy other people when our intercourse is entirely voluntary and to each individual's benefit in that individual's estimation. The exchange of ideas is like all other voluntary exchanges, each offers what they have for others to evaluate and either accept or reject and everyone in that kind of, "free market of ideas," benefits. Not sure why that would be difficult for you to understand? It seems obvious to me. What did you think, "so long as all my relationships with others are voluntary and benevolent," means? What other kind of relationships, other than those that are voluntary and benevolent would you consider good?

Voluntary and benevolent can be mutually inconsistent.

Unless you intend to impose your will on others by force to make them behave in a way you'd like them to against their will, in a way they would regard as harmful to themselves, how can voluntary and benevolent ever be, "inconsistent."

Sometimes duty is benevolent but not voluntary, and sometimes duty is not benevolent but is voluntary.

"Duty," is a made-up religious concept for some supposed obligation imposed on someone by some agency (like a God or nature) other than themselves which they never did anything to be responsible for. What you are saying is that one can have a duty to do something harmful or malevolent (not benevolent) to someone else. One who allows some obscene notion of, "duty," to determine their behavior can never be acting voluntarily. I can think few views more evil than the belief that one sometimes is required to intentionally do harm to someone else, which a duty to not be benevolent would be.

Writing in the forum must be inharmonious because, if not, we would learn nothing.

Totally irrelevant to anything I said.

[Belinda]

I enjoy other people when our intercourse is entirely voluntary and to each individual's benefit in that individual's estimation. The exchange of ideas is like all other voluntary exchanges, each offers what they have for others to evaluate and either accept or reject and everyone in that kind of, "free market of ideas," benefits. Not sure why that would be difficult for you to understand? It seems obvious to me. What did you think, "so long as all my relationships with others are voluntary and benevolent," means? What other kind of relationships, other than those that are voluntary and benevolent would you consider good?

Voluntary and benevolent can be mutually inconsistent.

Unless you intend to impose your will on others by force to make them behave in a way you'd like them to against their will, in a way they would regard as harmful to themselves, how can voluntary and benevolent ever be, "inconsistent."

Sometimes duty is benevolent but not voluntary, and sometimes duty is not benevolent but is voluntary.

"Duty," is a made-up religious concept for some supposed obligation imposed on someone by some agency (like a God or nature) other than themselves which they never did anything to be responsible for. What you are saying is that one can have a duty to do something harmful or malevolent (not benevolent) to someone else. One who allows some obscene notion of, "duty," to determine their behavior can never be acting voluntarily. I can think few views more evil than the belief that one sometimes is required to intentionally do harm to someone else, which a duty to not be benevolent would be.

Writing in the forum must be inharmonious because, if not, we would learn nothing.

Totally irrelevant to anything I said.

I agree with your opinion regarding duty. And yet duty is a moral force to be reckoned with whether we like it or not.

Unless you intend to impose your will on others by force to make them behave in a way you'd like them to against their will, in a way they would regard as harmful to themselves, how can voluntary and benevolent ever be, "inconsistent."

I don't like it either and yet that is the way the world works.
Belinda had written:

Writing in the forum must be inharmonious because, if not, we would learn nothing.

Implies I believe the Hegelian model for learning : thesis: antithesis: synthesis. Except that until we are all dead and gone, there is no perfect synthesis and the process of learning is never ending.

According to the Hegelian model, we have examples of fascism from history and have learned from history (most of us)that Fascism and its associated exceptionalism don't work.

[Age]

Are you even AWARE "rcsaunders" that the so-called "bum down the street" is A 'human being' EXACTLY like 'you' ARE?

He may be exactly like you, but I assure you he's not even remotely like me, and he would be the first to assure you of it.

Here we have A PRIME EXAMPLE of 'SEPARATISM', and of A 'SUPERIORITY COMPLEX'.

'you', are such a "bum", and an EXTREMELY USELESS one at that "rcsaunders", that when you talk about "success" and/or a "successful life" 'you' FAIL completely in being able to CLARIFY what you talk about.

I would NOT be at all surprised if the one 'you' call "a bum" could be FAR MORE SUCCESSFUL in Life than 'you' have been here.

LOOK "rcsaunders" I can PROVE 'you' are a complete FAILURE in Life BEFORE 'you' could even begin to PROVE that 'you' are a SUCCESS in Life.

And, if you would like to even TRY, then PLEASE go on ahead and BEGIN.

[Age]

I'm afraid you are confusing that sense of insecurity that comes from a lack of self-assurance, competence, and initiative expressed as, "a need to be part of some collective of others." for, "love of others." To really love someone else expresses itself in a desire to see others achieve and be what they want and choose to do and be, whether we like or agree with it or not. Love of others is not some kind of sickly sentimental self-sacrifice and submission to other, it is allowing others to be free to live as they choose and to enjoy their success and achievement, not worshiping their weaknesses and failures.

You apparently see no difference between those who choose virtue and pursue it and those who choose to squander their lives on immediate pleasure and satisfaction of their animal appetites, which is fine, if you are truly satisfied with that kind of life. I wish you well but do not entertain any illusions that kind of life can be successful. So long as others think you are, "loving," "empathetic," "charitable," and, "loving," whatever you mean by those things and no matter how much actual harm is done by those attitudes, well and good, eh?

'you' ACTUALLY think or BELIEVE that 'you' live a so-called "successful life" "rcsaunders". Yet, here you are living PROOF of just how much you are FAILING and are continuing to FAIL even further here.

One reason I have totally enjoyed my life of over eighty years is because other's opinions of my life have absolutely no meaning or significance to me.

But I do NOT care one iota if you have or have not 'enjoyed' your life. 'Enjoying one's life' has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL to do with having a so-called "successful life" or NOT.

And this does NOT matter if one is eight years old, eighty years old, or one hundred and eighty years old. 'you' being around for over eighty years also has ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING AT ALL on what WAS being talked about, and questioned here.

It is impossible to live successfully in this world caring about what other's think or feel.

You keep talking about 'things' but only ever ALLUDING to what 'it' is EXACTLY what you are talking about. You NEVER CLARIFY what you ALLUDE to.

Which I will PROVE, ONCE AGAIN, here now.

What does 'live successfully, ACTUALLY MEAN, to you?

To be a value to one's self or others one must do what they know is right, no matter what others think or believe.

But what IS 'right'?

What do you, SUPPOSEDLY, 'know' is 'right'?

Your INABILITY to CLARIFY FULLY and CORRECTLY will PROVE just how UNSUCCESSFUL your life has REALLY BEEN.

On the other hand, your ABILITY to CLARIFY FULLY and CORRECTLY will PROVE just how SUCCESSFUL your life MIGHT HAVE BEEN.

If you can NOT CLARIFY what you SAY and MEAN here, then 'how' you have, SUPPOSEDLY, been 'successful' "others" will just have to GUESS.

Although I desire nothing but the best for others, how they choose to live their life is none of my business, and, so long as all my relationships with others are voluntary and benevolent, how I choose to live mine is no one else's business. Especially not yours!

Your life appears to be an ABSOLUTE JOKE "rcsaunders".

You APPEAR to be as JUDGMENTAL, and full of a SUPERIORITY COMPLEX, as much as "immanuel can". Which is PROOF, itself, of living a VERY UNSUCCESSFUL life.

[Age]

One reason I have totally enjoyed my life of over eighty years is because other's opinions of my life have absolutely no meaning or significance to me. It is impossible to live successfully in this world caring about what other's think or feel. To be a value to one's self or others one must do what they know is right, no matter what others think or believe. Although I desire nothing but the best for others, how they choose to live their life is none of my business, and, so long as all my relationships with others are voluntary and benevolent, how I choose to live mine is no one else's business. Especially not yours!

In that case,

It is impossible to live successfully in this world caring about what other's think or feel.

why are you writing in the forum?

I enjoy other people when our intercourse is entirely voluntary and to each individual's benefit in that individual's estimation. The exchange of ideas is like all other voluntary exchanges, each offers what they have for others to evaluate and either accept or reject and everyone in that kind of, "free market of ideas," benefits. Not sure why that would be difficult for you to understand?

WHY do 'you' speak in such a CONDESCENDING way "rcsaunders"?

You appear to feel like a VERY INSIGNIFICANT and LESS THAN person, and so 'try to' OVERRIDE this by 'trying to' come across as SUPERIOR.

Are you even remotely AWARE that 'you', "yourself" "rcsaunders", is NOT 'understanding' what is ACTUALLY going on here?

That is; 'you' are NOT 'understanding' what is being POINTED OUT and SHOWN here.

When you were asked a question here, for CLARITY, you completely AND utterly FAIL to just CLARIFY. You then turn this INABILITY of YOURS around ONTO the "OTHER", and then 'try to' make out that it is "them" who is NOT 'understanding'.

LOOK, I suggest if you want to make a CLAIM like, for example; It is impossible to live successfully in this world caring about what other's think or feel. then you be ABLE to back up and support this CLAIM, BEFORE you make the CLAIM public, in the first place.

What you say here IS UNDERSTAND. What you say here just does NOT answer the question you were asked, and IN FACT actually now CONTRADICTS what you CLAIMED previously.

It seems obvious to me. What did you think, "so long as all my relationships with others are voluntary and benevolent," means?

How, EXACTLY, is CALLING and NAMING ANOTHER 'human being', (who IS, contrary to what you BELIEVE is true, just another 'human being' just like 'you' ARE) "a bum" having a 'relationship' that is being 'benevolent', EXACTLY?

What other kind of relationships, other than those that are voluntary and benevolent would you consider good?

LOL
LOL
LOL

What does 'having a relationship, voluntary', even mean or refer to, to you?

EVERY relationship is VOLUNTARY, no matter what way that relationship REALLY IS. In other words, how one views the "other", in ANY relationship, is ALWAYS voluntary.

Also, what is ACTUALLY and IRREFUTABLY 'good' is having a relationship with EVERY one that does NOT involve ANY ABUSE AT ALL. And doing this in a VOLUNTARY way makes this 'good' EVEN BETTER.

By the way, and because you appear to be COMPLETELY IGNORANT of this Fact; CALLING and NAMING "others" "bums" IS ABUSE, and NOT 'good' in ANY way AT ALL.

Furthermore, what is ACTUALLY and IRREFUTABLY 'good' is having;

Trust
Respect
Understanding
Empathy, while being,

Loyal (Honest)
Open, with,
Voluntary
Enthusiasm

with and for absolutely EVERY one EQUALLY is what 'TRUE LOVE' REALLY IS, EXACTLY.

Having 'this' is living a Truly 'successful life', and as 'you' have ALREADY PROVED True 'you' have been FAILING COMPLETELY in this DEFINED and IRREFUTABLE 'successful life'.

[Gary Childress]

Exceptionalism is the seed of fascism. Its traditional self-congratulations for being the best has led in the past to those submerged within it, to a relinquishing of their humanity. Nazi Germany, Japan, Italy, and arguably present-day America are prime examples. One way of conditioning the public that it is superior to other people in other nations is the distortion of history, selective propogranda and creation of the future out of fantasy or mythology. When mythology is believed, it becomes religion and exceptionalism has become America's religion. The world stood in awe at the Nazi monster war machine, unstoppable it seemed. The Russians however crushed that monster war machine and chased the Germans across Europe all the way back to Berlin, costing the lives of twenty-seven million Russians, were they given their due or great respect---you know the answer is no!

Why, the national ego. I grew up thinking that America was the main agent of the victory over Nazi Germany, it wasn't until later years when I had the leisure time to study a little history that the truth was revealed to me. America is an empire, it really is absurd to deny it, but that does not stop the ignorant, which is most of the population, it's not an accident, the population is being played like a violin. An ignorant population is easier to control than an intelligently informed one. America has not been a kind master and much of the population in their exceptionalism mistakes fear for respect.

Moderators-- please transfer to political philosophy.

I had a similar experience.
History taught about D-Day, but of Kursk it was almost silent. Kursk is where the war was effectively won. This still is the largest ever military exchange in history. The number are staggering and losses shocking. It make D-Day look like a picnic. After which Germany was a broken force.
The other voteface concerning WW2 is the reasons why the Japanese finally surrendered. I am indebted to the work of Howard Zynn's work. It has been shown as eaily as 1+1=2 that the atoms bombs were why Japan surrendered. That is self congratualtion by the US, Zynn tells us it was more to do with the massive Russian army which had just taken Manchuria in a staggeringly quick few days and was immediately about to invade Japan - a thing that the US had limited resources to, and zero appetite to achieve.

It is worth reflecting on the massive role of Russian in WW2 - they who lost more than any other country. Possibly more losses than all allied countries put together.
This, together with the following cold war started against the Soviet Union by the USA should give us some clue about the Russian psychology.
But blundering USA ,with never a bomb dropped on it, is not capable of understanding this, and continues to stumble ever eastwar in an undeclared war. Its not even like they have a ideological excuse. Maybe it never was about "commies", but just a primeval need to be the biggest bully on the world? And NATO is its instrument.

Stalin's Soviet Union was equally as barbaric as Germany. And Stalin was fine with helping Hitler invade Poland. True, the strategy of the Western Allies was to allow Hitler and Stalin to beat each other to pieces for a while instead of taking on Hitler in what would have been an extremely costly full frontal assault. The Western Allied leaders were thankfully a bit more cautious than that. Would you prefer that our military planners had thrown our grandfathers' generation into a meat grinder in order to quickly defeat Germany at all costs? Was it not enough that those in the merchant marines, RAF, or US Army Air Corps, paid a dear price in destroying German industry and in getting lend-lease products to the Soviets? As I understand it, the Soviets may not have won at Kursk had it not been for the many Western Allied pilots and merchant marines who paid a dear price while bombing German industrial centers or getting the Soviets desperately needed material to help them prosecute the war. The Soviets didn't do it single-handedly.

And we wouldn't have been in a war in the Pacific had the US not stood up against Japan's invasion of China with embargos; prompting Japan to invade the DEI in an attempt to get oil to keep their war machine going.

I mean, if you all want to be fans of the Soviet Union, then you might want to consider what our lives would be like today if the US were or had been anything like the Soviet Union or had the Soviet philosophy prevailed in history. It seems to me that lauding the Soviet Union makes about as much sense as lauding Nazi Germany. Be thankful we live in relatively free societies. And be thankful that our grandfathers survived the 1940s long enough to have our parents.

[Gary Childress]

But seriously dude what the fuck has this go to do with the thread?

Just curious myself about what those who think they have all the answers to the world's supposed problems actually do. It's not what one says or claims to believe that is important, but what they actually do, because that reveals what they really believe and care enough about to pursue.

If you don't see the relationship, don't worry about it.

There is a statement on the post which asks the moderators to re-locate to political thread, but they have not done so yet.

Your post on the other hand, screams ad hominem!

I think RC Saunders' point may be something along the lines of how a person who is detached from practical reality can sometimes begin to drift in their thoughts toward absurd ideas.

[popeye1945]

Just curious myself about what those who think they have all the answers to the world's supposed problems actually do. It's not what one says or claims to believe that is important, but what they actually do, because that reveals what they really believe and care enough about to pursue.
If you don't see the relationship, don't worry about it.

There is a statement on the post which asks the moderators to re-locate to political thread, but they have not done so yet.
Your post on the other hand, screams ad hominem!

I think RC Saunders' point may be something along the lines of how a person who is detached from practical reality can sometimes begin to drift in their thoughts toward absurd ideas.

Hi Gary,
could you expand upon your idea, how is RC's ad hominem justifiable in any way? I am thinking it's just the ordinary desperate knocking over the chessboard type of motivation. Personal attack is not justifiable in honest dialogue.

[Gary Childress]

There is a statement on the post which asks the moderators to re-locate to political thread, but they have not done so yet.
Your post on the other hand, screams ad hominem!

I think RC Saunders' point may be something along the lines of how a person who is detached from practical reality can sometimes begin to drift in their thoughts toward absurd ideas.

Hi Gary,
could you expand upon your idea, how is RC's ad hominem justifiable in any way?

I think it's justifiable to the extent that, although (from what I have gleaned off his posts) RC Saunders believes that the US has a long way to go before reaching any kind of ideal state of affairs, we are at least in a far better state of affairs than people in the Soviet Union were in. As far as being an "ad hominem", it appears to me that RC was asking a question, not making an assertion about you.