Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

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Vitruvius
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Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by Vitruvius »

Ruling limiting under-16s puberty blockers overturned
By Eleanor Lawrie
BBC News

Under-16s can take puberty blockers without parental consent, the Court of Appeal has ruled.

The appeal was brought by the Tavistock Trust, which runs the UK's only youth gender identity clinic.

The decision reverses a 2020 ruling that under-16s lacked capacity to give informed consent to the treatment, which delays the onset of puberty.

The original case was brought by Keira Bell, who says the clinic should have challenged her more over transitioning.

She said she was disappointed by the decision, and will seek permission to appeal to the Supreme Court.

Court of Appeal judges said they recognised "the difficulties and complexities" of the issue, but that "it is for the clinicians to exercise their judgement knowing how important it is that consent is properly obtained according to the particular individual circumstances".

Puberty blockers are drugs used to "pause" puberty by suppressing the release of hormones.

They are prescribed to some children who are experiencing gender dysphoria, which the NHS describes as "a sense of unease that a person may have because of a mismatch between their biological sex and their gender identity".

The Tavistock clinic said it welcomed the decision.

"The judgement upholds established legal principles which respect the ability of our clinicians to engage actively and thoughtfully with our patients in decisions about their care and futures," a spokesperson said.

"It affirms that it is for doctors, not judges, to decide on the capacity of under-16s to consent to medical treatment."

The Tavistock's Gender Identity Development Service (Gids) said that hormone treatment "allows a young person time to consider their options and to continue to explore their developing gender identity before making decisions about irreversible forms of treatment".

In December 2020, the High Court ruled under-13s were "highly unlikely" to be able to give informed consent to what it described as "experimental" treatment and it was "very doubtful" those aged 14 and 15 would have the sufficient understanding of the implications.

Keira Bell, one of the claimants in the case, started taking puberty blockers at the age of 16 after being referred to Gids.

She was later prescribed the male hormone testosterone and had surgery to remove her breasts.

Now in her mid-20s, she regrets the decision to transition to a male, and feels there wasn't enough investigation or therapy before she reached that stage.

She said she had "no regrets" about bringing the case, which she said "shone a light into the dark corners of a medical scandal that is harming children and harmed me.

"I am obviously disappointed with the ruling of the court today, and especially that it did not grapple with the significant risk of harm that children are exposed to by being given powerful experimental drugs."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58598186
Belinda
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by Belinda »

Is gender dysphoria not so much a psychological as a sociological problem? I mean , is it necessary to look like a male in order to act like male is 'supposed to' act?
Vitruvius
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by Vitruvius »

Belinda wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:29 pm Is gender dysphoria not so much a psychological as a sociological problem? I mean , is it necessary to look like a male in order to act like male is 'supposed to' act?
Gender dysphoria is a psychological condition according to the DSM V - and I'm beyond astonished the High Court would see fit to make mentally disturbed children responsible for their own care.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

If gender is 'only a social construct' then what exactly are these fuckwits changing children 'into'? How can you 'feel like' something that supposedly doesn't exist? None too bright these wokies. So what? if a boy likes playing with dolls or playing dress-ups? Doesn't make him a girl. Plenty of girls don't like doing those things. Does that mean they are all boys?
The physical harm that wokedom is doing to children is only secondary to the mental harm that it's doing. Children are only their little pawns in the creation of the dystopia that they envision for humanity.
Vitruvius
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by Vitruvius »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:50 pm If gender is 'only a social construct' then what exactly are these fuckwits changing children 'into'? How can you 'feel like' something that supposedly doesn't exist? None too bright these wokies. So what? if a boy likes playing with dolls or playing dress-ups? Doesn't make him a girl. Plenty of girls don't like doing those things. Does that mean they are all boys?
The physical harm that wokedom is doing to children is only secondary to the mental harm that it's doing. Children are only their little pawns in the creation of the dystopia that they envision for humanity.

I agree, and so does Dr Marcus Evans, formerly of the GIDS clinic - on twitter. He, and 32 other doctors quit GIDS since 2016, citing politically correct pressure to 'hand out puberty blockers like smarties.'
Belinda
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by Belinda »

Vitruvius wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:52 pm
Belinda wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:29 pm Is gender dysphoria not so much a psychological as a sociological problem? I mean , is it necessary to look like a male in order to act like male is 'supposed to' act?
Gender dysphoria is a psychological condition according to the DSM V - and I'm beyond astonished the High Court would see fit to make mentally disturbed children responsible for their own care.
Please bear with me, V. Do you endorse that gender dysphoria is a problem that originates in a rotten culture of belief?
Shades of the prison-house begin to close
Upon the growing Boy,
Veggie, would you agree to that too?
Vitruvius
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by Vitruvius »

Belinda wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:29 pm Is gender dysphoria not so much a psychological as a sociological problem? I mean , is it necessary to look like a male in order to act like male is 'supposed to' act?
Vitruvius wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:52 pmGender dysphoria is a psychological condition according to the DSM V - and I'm beyond astonished the High Court would see fit to make mentally disturbed children responsible for their own care.
Belinda wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:12 pmPlease bear with me, V. Do you endorse that gender dysphoria is a problem that originates in a rotten culture of belief?
Like any question of human psychology, I think it's nature and nurture. There's no way politically correct teachers spouting nonsense about 99 genders could have convinced me I'm a girl; like they couldn't convince David Reimer, even though he had trans op as an infant and was raised as a girl, his masculinity emerged anyway.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

I'm happy to bear with you; but if that's not the answer you were looking for, perhaps you should make the devastating point you're clearly setting me up for. I promise I'll be suitably devastated!
Belinda
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by Belinda »

Not setting you up but we disagree as to nature and nurture as they affect genders. I believe genders are allocated by cultural belief systems, not by nature. Therefore children who want to fit into some damnable cultural strait -jacket need to be protected against their own vulnerability to cultural pressures.

Note how demagogues like the Taliban are at the extreme of the nature faction and are strict about separating the genders into two and only two, third type genders are beheaded.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:43 pm I believe genders are allocated by cultural belief systems, not by nature.
I guess you're not married, then. When you're married, you know for sure: a man is not a woman, and a woman is not a man.

Do you know how fixed gender actually is? It's so fixed that if they dig up your remains a thousand years from now, it may be one of the only things they can tell for certain about you. It's so fixed that every single cell in your body carries the code for it. It's so fixed that if you try to alter your body to the opposite gender, your body will continually attempt to revert, treating all changes as damage; and only extremely strong hormones and additional procedures will enable you to keep up the illusion of the change -- you'll fight your body to the grave. That's how non-constructed gender actually is.

Those who speed children into "transition" are condemning them to a life of confusion, misery and biological warfare against themselves. And that's even if we don't consider their sociological maladjustment at all.
Belinda
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:26 pm
Belinda wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:43 pm I believe genders are allocated by cultural belief systems, not by nature.
I guess you're not married, then. When you're married, you know for sure: a man is not a woman, and a woman is not a man.

Do you know how fixed gender actually is? It's so fixed that if they dig up your remains a thousand years from now, it may be one of the only things they can tell for certain about you. It's so fixed that every single cell in your body carries the code for it. It's so fixed that if you try to alter your body to the opposite gender, your body will continually attempt to revert, treating all changes as damage; and only extremely strong hormones and additional procedures will enable you to keep up the illusion of the change -- you'll fight your body to the grave. That's how non-constructed gender actually is.

Those who speed children into "transition" are condemning them to a life of confusion, misery and biological warfare against themselves. And that's even if we don't consider their sociological maladjustment at all.
You don't know the difference between biological sex, and gender.
Vitruvius
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by Vitruvius »

Belinda wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:43 pm Not setting you up but we disagree as to nature and nurture as they affect genders. I believe genders are allocated by cultural belief systems, not by nature. Therefore children who want to fit into some damnable cultural strait -jacket need to be protected against their own vulnerability to cultural pressures.

Note how demagogues like the Taliban are at the extreme of the nature faction and are strict about separating the genders into two and only two, third type genders are beheaded.
We seem to disagree about everything, but you've never come across as insulted that someone would disagree, and that demonstrates intellectual confidence. I respect that, even while I think you're the very epitome of wrong, I retain an open mind. I think sex is allocated by nature and almost exclusively, development leads to gender that is identical to sex.

Indeed, one might argue that gender is only a thing because development is not always normal - and that's where the "disorder" bit comes from in Gender Identity Disorder.

"The "male-or-female sex" sense [of the term 'gender'] is attested in English from early 15c. As sex (n.) took on erotic qualities in 20c., gender came to be the usual English word for "sex of a human being," in which use it was at first regarded as colloquial or humorous. Later often in feminist writing with reference to social attributes as much as biological qualities; this sense first attested 1963."

There are both genetic and environmental causes of this disorder - and a significant environmental cause is left wing, politically correct, post modernist subjectivism:

"Common targets of postmodern criticism include universalist ideas of objective reality, morality, truth, human nature, reason, science, language, and social progress."

So if you mean children need protecting from lefty fuckwit teachers telling them there are 99 genders, I agree.

Note that Adolf Hitler was a vegetarian, so vegetarianism is bad!
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Belinda wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:56 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:26 pm
Belinda wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:43 pm I believe genders are allocated by cultural belief systems, not by nature.
I guess you're not married, then. When you're married, you know for sure: a man is not a woman, and a woman is not a man.

Do you know how fixed gender actually is? It's so fixed that if they dig up your remains a thousand years from now, it may be one of the only things they can tell for certain about you. It's so fixed that every single cell in your body carries the code for it. It's so fixed that if you try to alter your body to the opposite gender, your body will continually attempt to revert, treating all changes as damage; and only extremely strong hormones and additional procedures will enable you to keep up the illusion of the change -- you'll fight your body to the grave. That's how non-constructed gender actually is.

Those who speed children into "transition" are condemning them to a life of confusion, misery and biological warfare against themselves. And that's even if we don't consider their sociological maladjustment at all.
You don't know the difference between biological sex, and gender.
What causes you to believe there is one?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:56 pm You don't know the difference between biological sex, and gender.
Sure, I know the propaganda very well.

"Gender" is supposed to be social, whereas "sex" is supposed to be biological, according to current PoMo orthodoxy. But they aren't distinct in reality, because being male or female is not created by socialization, but by biology. One can be reconciled to one's sex identity, or one is mentally ill with body-dysmorphic disorder. Those are the only two states there are.

If you're mentally unbalanced, you can want all you want to be a male, and I can want to be a Japanese starfish or a rainbow unicorn. Neither of us is going to get what we want, if we do that.
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by Belinda »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:31 am
Belinda wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:56 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:26 pm
I guess you're not married, then. When you're married, you know for sure: a man is not a woman, and a woman is not a man.

Do you know how fixed gender actually is? It's so fixed that if they dig up your remains a thousand years from now, it may be one of the only things they can tell for certain about you. It's so fixed that every single cell in your body carries the code for it. It's so fixed that if you try to alter your body to the opposite gender, your body will continually attempt to revert, treating all changes as damage; and only extremely strong hormones and additional procedures will enable you to keep up the illusion of the change -- you'll fight your body to the grave. That's how non-constructed gender actually is.

Those who speed children into "transition" are condemning them to a life of confusion, misery and biological warfare against themselves. And that's even if we don't consider their sociological maladjustment at all.
You don't know the difference between biological sex, and gender.
What causes you to believe there is one?
Real life experience of myself and other children and adults. I know from experience how society tends to snuff individual personality.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Belinda wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:07 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:31 am
Belinda wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:56 pm
You don't know the difference between biological sex, and gender.
What causes you to believe there is one?
Real life experience of myself and other children and adults. I know from experience how society tends to snuff individual personality.
In what context? Gender actually means the same as sex. Haven't you heard medical people talking about baby gender, either before or after birth?
Calling it a 'social construct' is a social construct. I'm not pandering to those who butcher the language to suit their political agenda. The idiots contradict themselves anyway. If it's a 'social construct' then how can anyone be the 'wrong gender'?? THEY are the ones stereotyping men and women and what constitutes 'being' one or the other.
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