Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by Immanuel Can »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:21 pm In fact they don't even align themselves with women, contemptuously giving actual women the label of 'ciswomen', so clearly they don't 'feel like women' at all.
That's a good point. They must mean that whatever they "feel" like, it's not what we conventionally know as "a woman."

So what is it? Who knows. Very likely, something they made up in their imaginations. It's a confused man feeling like a confused man thinks a woman might feel.
Vitruvius
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by Vitruvius »

Vitruvius wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:35 pm ...as a consequence of the decision in the case of Keria Bell, parents don't have the last word, and what I initially thought was 'making mentally disturbed children responsible for their own care' gains a different aspect in light by your remarks. One I must admit I hadn't considered.

Hmmm...
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:51 pmOh, that's absolutely true, I would say.

An eight-year-old girl who says, "I think I'm a boy," or a ten-year-old boy who says, "Maybe I'm a girl" is doing exactly what children do: they try out identities, and they project possibilities on the world through imagination, and see what sticks. It's part of their development, their sorting the world out, their growth. And they need reliable feedback from the world as to what is reasonable, possible and likely to be true. That's very normal.

If they get confused signals coming back, they become confused and double down on their fantasies, until something they can believe comes back to them. Morally, we owe them a set of good signals.

Unfortunately, parents who are narcissistically-inclined, or who are fearful of the difficulty of helping a confused or dysmorphic child negotiate reality, prefer to virtue-signal their own "tolerant" nature by reinforcing bad ideas in their children. And like the ancient parents who sacrificed their children to the fiery god Molech by throwing them into the arms of a molten idol, they throw their children into the burning arms of the "toleration" idol, thus proving their own piety and devotion, but immolating their children in the process.

And doctors do it too. Some are also virtue-signallers. Some are themselves idiologically-possessed. Some worry what their colleagues and professional colleges will do if they step out of line. Others have become fearful of contradicting the gender-transition narrative, and can simply avoid getting sued, by capitulating to the parents or to the fantasies of the child. The media loves the fantasy, because it's salacious, sexy, and gets into the liberation narratives of total freedom and choice, all of which raise public interest and impress advertisers. So everybody just goes along with it, and it's children like Kiera Bell who pay the ultimate price for the craven, self-admiring, lazy or virtue-signalling conduct of the older generation.

It's our job to help children come to grips with truth. If we don't, we're failing to raise them in a way that is functional and healthy for them. And one of the truly irresistible facts of our birth is the fact of two sexes.
Given that you wrote that in two minuets, off the top of your head, it's quite intimidating. This is the second time talking to you has given me insight, this time into how I must come across to others. It would be worse if we were in disagreement; like fighting the wind. Really impressive post. Fortunately I agree with every word. I can't find anything I don't agree with, or even much to add. I'm reduced to a nodding dog; pointing out things I particularly agree with. That just doesn't happen to me. You must be really fucking smart!
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:51 pmMorally, we owe them a set of good signals.
So simple, obvious - yet so profound. I imagine you're aware the suicide rate among trans people is significantly higher than the average.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:51 pm And like the ancient parents who sacrificed their children to the fiery god Molech by throwing them into the arms of a molten idol, they throw their children into the burning arms of the "toleration" idol, thus proving their own piety and devotion, but immolating their children in the process.
Paradise Lost? Dante's Inferno?
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:51 pmAnd doctors do it too. Some are also virtue-signallers. Some are themselves idiologically-possessed. Some worry what their colleagues and professional colleges will do if they step out of line. Others have become fearful of contradicting the gender-transition narrative, and can simply avoid getting sued, by capitulating to the parents or to the fantasies of the child.
I posted something earlier - "Why I quit GIDS by Dr Marcus Evans." 32 doctors quit GIDS between 2016 and 2019, citing politically correct pressure to proscribe puberty blockers on the basis of two or three hour long consultations. Dr Evans states that gender dysphoria is often transitory - it goes away with a bit of time and therapy, but the lefties are already in there - making the disorder permanent with drugs and politically correct affirmation.

https://quillette.com/2020/01/17/why-i- ... and-drugs/
Vitruvius
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

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Vitruvius wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:35 pm...I particularly agree with this:

'But "seducing" is what parents do when they convince a pre-pubescent child that he/she needs to be mangled surgically and poisoned with hormones because the parent wants to feel "open-minded"; which is the only true rationale behind harming a child in this way.'

It helps that it's actually on topic, or almost, because things is - as a consequence of the decision in the case of Keria Bell, parents don't have the last word, and what I initially thought was 'making mentally disturbed children responsible for their own care' gains a different aspect in the light of your remarks. One I must admit I hadn't considered. i.e. the parent is the problem!
uwot wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:43 pm Why on earth should you consider that parents convince their "pre-pubescent child that he/she needs to be mangled surgically and poisoned with hormones"? Do you have any evidence of parents doing this? If it were true that "the parent is the problem", would it not be better that "parents don't have the last word"?
That is the exact consequence of the decision in the case of Kiera Bell, I hadn't considered. I think it's madness to make mentally disordered children responsible for their own care - but ImmanuelCan pointed out that parents are potentially the cause; because having a trans kid would make them more interesting. Like getting a little dog that fits in your purse - very now! It's a good point, and I'm trying to relate that to policy - but don't feel I have enough information to quite see how the legal decision would play out vis a vis - a child approaching GIDS without their parents knowledge. If the emphasis were on therapy, yes - but if GIDS continue handing out puberty blockers like smarties, then no!
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by Vitruvius »

Vitruvius wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:13 pm I don't care what consenting adults get up to - in the privacy of their own lives and bedrooms. What pisses me off is having it shoved in my face all the time - and being told to approve, or else!
Terrapin Station wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:19 pmYou should be able to let people do their own thing publicly, too. That doesn't mean that you have to "approve" of it, but you need to be able to let other folks do things you don't approve of, and they'll return the favor (re things you do that they don't approve of).
So if I decide to take my morning dump on the lawn rather than in my bathroom, that's okay, is it? Afterall, dumping in private is just a socially constructed norm! It's okay if I walk around with my gender and sexuality at the forefront of my personality, walking around with my knob out "whoooaring" at women - I'd be locked up! But it's okay to take a class of twelve year old children on a school trip to gay pride, to see blokes walking down Oxford Street in assless chaps!?
Last edited by Vitruvius on Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

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Vitruvius wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:28 pm
Vitruvius wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:13 pm I don't care what consenting adults get up to - in the privacy of their own lives and bedrooms. What pisses me off is having it shoved in my face all the time - and being told to approve, or else!
Terrapin Station wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:19 pmYou should be able to let people do their own thing publicly, too. That doesn't mean that you have to "approve" of it, but you need to be able to let other folks do things you don't approve of, and they'll return the favor (re things you do that they don't approve of).
So if I decide to take my morning dump on the lawn rather than in my bathroom, that's okay, is it? Afterall, dumping in private is just a socially constructed norm! It's okay if I walk around with my gender and sexuality at the forefront of my personality, walking around with my knob out whwoooaring at women - I'd be locked up! But it's okay to take a class of twelve year old children on a school trip to gay pride, to see blokes walking down Oxford Street in assless chaps!?
In my view you should be allowed to take a dump on your lawn and you should be allowed to be naked if you like, yes.
Vitruvius
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

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Terrapin Station wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:30 pmIn my view you should be allowed to take a dump on your lawn and you should be allowed to be naked if you like, yes.
That's an awful lot of freedom of expression right there. So can I be transphobic? Can I be racist? Can I be homophobic? If the answer is no - then it seems you want all the freedom for yourself, and none for anyone else! If freedom of expression has limits, and you seem to argue both that it does - and does not, why do you get to walk around naked and shit on the lawn and I don't? Are you a dog?
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

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According to woke 'logic', if a girl doesn't like to play with dolls then she's actually a boy.
Ok. So, as most little boys like little girls, then that must mean that the ones who don't are actually girls. This must mean that gay men are really women in men's bodies. Exactly the same 'logic', but not at all Politically Correct so the wokies won't be touching this one :lol:
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

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Vitruvius wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:31 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:30 pmIn my view you should be allowed to take a dump on your lawn and you should be allowed to be naked if you like, yes.
That's an awful lot of freedom of expression right there. So can I be transphobic? Can I be racist? Can I be homophobic? If the answer is no - then it seems you want all the freedom for yourself, and none for anyone else! If freedom of expression has limits, and you seem to argue both that it does - and does not, why do you get to walk around naked and shit on the lawn and I don't? Are you a dog?
As I said, "That doesn't mean that you have to 'approve' of it, but you need to be able to let other folks do things you don't approve of." No one can or should regulate the way you feel/your opinions, but you need to be able to let other folks do things you don't approve of.

I'm not in favor of any limits on expression qua expression.
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Terrapin Station wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:08 pm
Vitruvius wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:31 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:30 pmIn my view you should be allowed to take a dump on your lawn and you should be allowed to be naked if you like, yes.
That's an awful lot of freedom of expression right there. So can I be transphobic? Can I be racist? Can I be homophobic? If the answer is no - then it seems you want all the freedom for yourself, and none for anyone else! If freedom of expression has limits, and you seem to argue both that it does - and does not, why do you get to walk around naked and shit on the lawn and I don't? Are you a dog?
As I said, "That doesn't mean that you have to 'approve' of it, but you need to be able to let other folks do things you don't approve of." No one can or should regulate the way you feel/your opinions, but you need to be able to let other folks do things you don't approve of.

I'm not in favor of any limits on expression qua expression.
Again, I don't give a rat's arse how men want to dress or what they think of themselves as long as it doesn't encroach on anyone else's rights. If a man is allowed to tell me that he's a woman because he 'feels' that way then I have the right to say that he isn't. I shouldn't be forced to alter my language and grammar and what I know to be scientific fact to accommodate him. They are the ones expecting society to pander to them. They are the ones who are insisting on having 'gender studies' as part of the school curriculum. They are the ones giving me a nonsensical and contemptuous label to differentiate my 'type of woman' from their 'type of woman'.
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

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Vitruvius wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:08 pmThat is the exact consequence of the decision in the case of Kiera Bell, I hadn't considered. I think it's madness to make mentally disordered children responsible for their own care - but ImmanuelCan pointed out that parents are potentially the cause; because having a trans kid would make them more interesting. Like getting a little dog that fits in your purse - very now!
So who are Kiera Bell's parents? I think my original question stands: Why on earth should you consider that parents convince their "pre-pubescent child that he/she needs to be mangled surgically and poisoned with hormones"? Do you have any evidence of parents doing this?
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by Vitruvius »

Terrapin Station wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:30 pmIn my view you should be allowed to take a dump on your lawn and you should be allowed to be naked if you like, yes.
Vitruvius wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:31 pmThat's an awful lot of freedom of expression right there. So can I be transphobic? Can I be racist? Can I be homophobic? If the answer is no - then it seems you want all the freedom for yourself, and none for anyone else! If freedom of expression has limits, and you seem to argue both that it does - and does not, why do you get to walk around naked and shit on the lawn and I don't? Are you a dog?
Terrapin Station wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:08 pmAs I said, "That doesn't mean that you have to 'approve' of it, but you need to be able to let other folks do things you don't approve of." No one can or should regulate the way you feel/your opinions, but you need to be able to let other folks do things you don't approve of.

I'm not in favor of any limits on expression qua expression.
What part of, "I don't care what consenting adults get up to in the privacy of their own lives and bedrooms" - is confusing to you? Perhaps it's the difference between public and private space. In public space, most people would argue that norms apply, and for good reason. Similarly, most people would argue that parents have a responsibility to their children, to raise them capable of behaving according to the norms that apply in public space - and it seems to me that trans in particular get a kick out of getting right in your face - with behaviours deliberately designed to outrage those norms - and then dare you to disapprove. It's not that you're gay, or trans - it's that you're shitting on the lawn, and you think that's okay! It's not. Keep it in your pants!
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Vitruvius wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:39 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:30 pmIn my view you should be allowed to take a dump on your lawn and you should be allowed to be naked if you like, yes.
Vitruvius wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:31 pmThat's an awful lot of freedom of expression right there. So can I be transphobic? Can I be racist? Can I be homophobic? If the answer is no - then it seems you want all the freedom for yourself, and none for anyone else! If freedom of expression has limits, and you seem to argue both that it does - and does not, why do you get to walk around naked and shit on the lawn and I don't? Are you a dog?
Terrapin Station wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:08 pmAs I said, "That doesn't mean that you have to 'approve' of it, but you need to be able to let other folks do things you don't approve of." No one can or should regulate the way you feel/your opinions, but you need to be able to let other folks do things you don't approve of.

I'm not in favor of any limits on expression qua expression.
What part of, "I don't care what consenting adults get up to in the privacy of their own lives and bedrooms" - is confusing to you? Perhaps it's the difference between public and private space. In public space, most people would argue that norms apply, and for good reason. Similarly, most people would argue that parents have a responsibility to their children, to raise them capable of behaving according to the norms that apply in public space - and it seems to me that trans in particular get a kick out of getting right in your face - with behaviours deliberately designed to outrage those norms - and then dare you to disapprove. It's not that you're gay, or trans - it's that you're shitting on the lawn, and you think that's okay! It's not. Keep it in your pants!
Can't wait to see him counter THAT ...
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

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Vitruvius wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:44 pm I imagine you're aware the suicide rate among trans people is significantly higher than the average.
The highest, I understand. Apparently, the only comparable group that had their rate of suicide was Jews under Hitler. But it doesn't go down after surgery either, apparently...still around 45 % report suicidal ideation or self-harm. So whatever is making them do it, it's not the lack of the procedure, nor is it the lack of public acceptance, since black males (who are purportedly discriminated against) have the lowest suicide rate, even below white males.

What's doing it is a mental illness...body dysmorphic disorder. These people are chronically unhappy, chronically unreconciled to their bodies, and chronically self-destructive. They are mentally ill, and they need our help. "Normalizing" their pain is not help.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:51 pm And like the ancient parents who sacrificed their children to the fiery god Molech by throwing them into the arms of a molten idol, they throw their children into the burning arms of the "toleration" idol, thus proving their own piety and devotion, but immolating their children in the process.
Paradise Lost? Dante's Inferno?
Very good guesses, but no: just ancient history. https://www.britannica.com/topic/Moloch-ancient-god
Dr Evans states that gender dysphoria is often transitory - it goes away with a bit of time and therapy, but the lefties are already in there - making the disorder permanent with drugs and politically correct affirmation.
And that's the cruelty that hides under all this "trans-rights" talk. The woke don't want to help sufferers of dysmorphic disorder, far less relieve them -- heavens, no -- they want to keep them and use them as an opportunity to virtue signal, and what happens to them be damned.

Using other people is what Lefties do most.
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by Vitruvius »

Vitruvius wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:44 pm I imagine you're aware the suicide rate among trans people is significantly higher than the average.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:29 pmThe highest, I understand. Apparently, the only comparable group that had their rate of suicide was Jews under Hitler. But it doesn't go down after surgery either, apparently...still around 45 % report suicidal ideation or self-harm. So whatever is making them do it, it's not the lack of the procedure, nor is it the lack of public acceptance, since black males (who are purportedly discriminated against) have the lowest suicide rate, even below white males.
Caught this this morning:

Children face 'agonising' waits for mental health care
By Nick Triggle
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58565067

I don't know why there isn't a mental health counsellor in every school. Maybe like a Psychology post grad job; young adults might relate better to kids, and it gives the aspiring counsellor a job in their field, so they gain some experience. And the kids get immediate access to mental health counselling - without the enormous costs to the NHS. Win, win, win!
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:29 pmWhat's doing it is a mental illness...body dysmorphic disorder. These people are chronically unhappy, chronically unreconciled to their bodies, and chronically self-destructive. They are mentally ill, and they need our help. "Normalizing" their pain is not help.
I agree. I could just write that after every part of your post. Instead I've been thinking about the far more complex environment children face today; than the one I was raised in. Political correctness was in its infancy when I was at school, and back then - they only went so far as 'don't discriminate on the basis of arbitrary characteristics.' And that was fine. Live and let live. Good rule of thumb. But now, it's gone way beyond that - because the left have inverted identity politics, and now actively propagandise on behalf of minority interests - in an attack on the so called white male patriarchy; they've made whiteness, maleness and straightness problematic - while celebrating diversity!
Dr Evans states that gender dysphoria is often transitory - it goes away with a bit of time and therapy, but the lefties are already in there - making the disorder permanent with drugs and politically correct affirmation.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:29 pmAnd that's the cruelty that hides under all this "trans-rights" talk. The woke don't want to help sufferers of dysmorphic disorder, far less relieve them -- heavens, no -- they want to keep them and use them as an opportunity to virtue signal, and what happens to them be damned.Using other people is what Lefties do most.
Again, we are of one mind. DYK, there are around 1000 arrest related deaths in the US per year, from over 10 million arrests. 32% of those are black people. 42% white people. That's a failure rate of around 0.01% - in a country where people carry guns. That demonstrates incredible professionalism on the part of police - but in order to spike an election (IMO) the left made out like there's some kind of racist genocide being committed by the police. BLM is blatant leftist manipulation; forcing people to demonstrations of political correctness at election time.

The left is in trouble though; in the US and the UK. They've been abandoned by the white working class people they were set up to represent; and cannot counter, disagree with, or therefore control the marriage of an inverted identity politics with moral righteousness. They've created a ratchet effect; a holier than thou ideology - where the noose can only tighten for fear of being called racist, sexist, homophobic etc, twitter mobbed, de-platformed and threatened, no matter how mad an idea - like gender self identification, they can only agree.
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by uwot »

Vitruvius wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:35 am...the left have inverted identity politics...
As a matter of interest, where does 'the left' begin in your opinion? For Mr Can it's somewhere to the right of Adolf Hitler because, after all, his party were National Socialists. May I also remind you that it was Mr Can who, in the absence of any examples must have invented the identity of parents who convince their
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:33 pm...pre-pubescent child that he/she needs to be mangled surgically and poisoned with hormones because the parent wants to feel "open-minded"; which is the only true rationale behind harming a child in this way.
"The only true rationale". As you say, Mr Can
Vitruvius wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:44 pm...must be really fucking smart!
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