JK Rowling vs. History

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Immanuel Can
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Re: JK Rowling vs. History

Post by Immanuel Can »

henry quirk wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:28 am transablism: of all the trans states, this is the only one that holds true.

A sighted man can indeed become a blind man...have spoon, will scoop.
Quite right. To be precise, we might argue that it's "self-evident" that an abled man can disable himself, and still be what he says he is...a disabled man. But he can't be a woman, a different race, or a different species. No amount of cutting and steroids, skin dye or bunny ears will make any of that possible. But yeah, a guy can maim himself.

Good point.
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henry quirk
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Re: JK Rowling vs. History

Post by henry quirk »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:54 am
henry quirk wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:28 am transablism: of all the trans states, this is the only one that holds true.

A sighted man can indeed become a blind man...have spoon, will scoop.
Quite right. To be precise, we might argue that it's "self-evident" that an abled man can disable himself, and still be what he says he is...a disabled man. But he can't be a woman, a different race, or a different species. No amount of cutting and steroids, skin dye or bunny ears will make any of that possible. But yeah, *a guy can maim himself.

Good point.
*And if he cuts himself, dyes his skin, affixes bunny ears to himself, all he's done is maim himself...

maimed
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mickthinks
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Re: JK Rowling vs. History

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That suicide and suicidal thoughts are higher among trans people after transitioning than among the general population is clear and I haven't claimed otherwise. The crucial issue at hand is whether transitioning helps trans people to be happier.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:06 am[the rate of suicidal ideation is] marginally higher after transition.
Citation please (I'll wait) ...
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Immanuel Can
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Re: JK Rowling vs. History

Post by Immanuel Can »

mickthinks wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:04 am That suicide and suicidal thoughts are higher among trans people after transitioning than among the general population is clear and I haven't claimed otherwise. The crucial issue at hand is whether transitioning helps trans people to be happier.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:06 am[the rate of suicidal ideation is] marginally higher after transition.
Citation please (I'll wait) ...
I apologize. I misspoke, but in a minor way.

It's not "after transition," it's "if they can pass for the gender they want," which is, of course, often also "after transition": and the difference is marginally down, not up. (Check the purple printing in my previous message, for your citation.) It seems that being able to pass as the "new" gender only reduces suicidal inclinations from the mid 40's to 40% flat.

Not a huge difference, but I'm fine with acknowledging the error. It hardly makes the situation better.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: JK Rowling vs. History

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:44 pm
mickthinks wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:04 am That suicide and suicidal thoughts are higher among trans people after transitioning than among the general population is clear and I haven't claimed otherwise. The crucial issue at hand is whether transitioning helps trans people to be happier.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:06 am[the rate of suicidal ideation is] marginally higher after transition.
Citation please (I'll wait) ...
I apologize. I misspoke, but in a minor way.

It's not "after transition," it's "if they can pass for the gender they want," which is, of course, often also "after transition": and the difference is marginally down, not up. (Check the purple printing in my previous message, for your citation.) It seems that being able to pass as the "new" gender only reduces suicidal inclinations from the mid 40's to 40% flat.

Not a huge difference, but I'm fine with acknowledging the error. It hardly makes the situation better.
Where do these 'statistics' come from? How long have they been monitoring this, what are the actual numbers here (ones,tens, hundreds, thousands), and how would they even ascertain this? Do these people write suicide notes explaining in detail that they would not have committed suicide if only they had been able to 'pass for the gender they want'? How would they know whether any male suicides were men who wanted to 'pass as women' but couldn't? Are they simply taking the word of men saying that they would have committed suicide if they hadn't miraculously turned into a woman? None of it makes any sense.
As far as I am aware, reasons for suicide aren't recorded for obvious reasons.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: JK Rowling vs. History

Post by Immanuel Can »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:19 pm Where do these 'statistics' come from?
See the purple quotation.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: JK Rowling vs. History

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:05 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:19 pm Where do these 'statistics' come from?
See the purple quotation.
The point I was making is that there are far more questions than answers. I'm on your side in this. Plus, it's hardly the job of women to fix these individuals' mental problems and fetishes.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: JK Rowling vs. History

Post by Immanuel Can »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:35 pm Plus, it's hardly the job of women to fix these individuals' mental problems and fetishes.
Well, that depends.

Do we want women's sports to still exist? If we do, then the trans issue is a huge one, because it will kill all women's sports forever.

For example, the fastest women ever to run the 100 was Flo Jo. But in the same year she set the world record, there were at least 20 boys in U.S. high schools who ran faster...plus all the collegiate athletes and all the professionals. So one trans-athlete could put the women's record out of reach for all real women forever, with just one race. The same is true in weightlifting, high jump and pole vault, all ball sports, all combat sports...

And do women want to share their change rooms and washrooms with biological men? Do female criminals mind being incarcerated with biological men?

There's a lot at stake here for women, and actually practically nothing for men. So it may not be women's job to fix it, but if they have any sense of self-preservation, they sure ought to be standing strong on this issue.

But most are not. They're asleep, and don't yet realize that the trans lobby is coming for them.
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Re: JK Rowling vs. History

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:13 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:35 pm Plus, it's hardly the job of women to fix these individuals' mental problems and fetishes.
Well, that depends.

Do we want women's sports to still exist? If we do, then the trans issue is a huge one, because it will kill all women's sports forever.

For example, the fastest women ever to run the 100 was Flo Jo. But in the same year she set the world record, there were at least 20 boys in U.S. high schools who ran faster...plus all the collegiate athletes and all the professionals. So one trans-athlete could put the women's record out of reach for all real women forever, with just one race. The same is true in weightlifting, high jump and pole vault, all ball sports, all combat sports...

And do women want to share their change rooms and washrooms with biological men? Do female criminals mind being incarcerated with biological men?

There's a lot at stake here for women, and actually practically nothing for men. So it may not be women's job to fix it, but if they have any sense of self-preservation, they sure ought to be standing strong on this issue.

But most are not. They're asleep, and don't yet realize that the trans lobby is coming for them.
I don't disagree with any of that. Women are dismissed as 'terfs' if they object. The radical 'trans' movement is actually deeply misognyistic and the aim is to erase women entirely,
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Immanuel Can
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Re: JK Rowling vs. History

Post by Immanuel Can »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:37 am Women are dismissed as 'terfs' if they object.
"Terfs," eh? Well, it's certainly the farthest thing from "radical" to know that a woman is a woman. A non-feminist, or a man, or anybody at all with an ounce of sense could say exactly the same thing, so that's nonsense.

Once again, the real radicals are trying to prevent rational discussion by hurling epithets. It's what they do, because they're going to lose on any sort of reasoned dialogue.
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henry quirk
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Re: JK Rowling vs. History

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trying to prevent rational discussion

Trying?

Seems to me: they tried, they succeeded.

Seems to me: we're way past the point of rational or reasonable discussion, on a whole whack of subjects.

Like I been sayin' for a long time...

There's no reasonin' with crazy.

...&...

There can be no compromise between free men and slavers.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: JK Rowling vs. History

Post by Immanuel Can »

henry quirk wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:17 pm trying to prevent rational discussion

Trying?

Seems to me: they tried, they succeeded.
That depends. They succeeded in taking over the Leftist media and the Progressives, for sure. Whether they succeed with anybody else, and whether they succeed in the long run, depends on the durability and acceptance of their strategy.

How long can they shore up a distinction built on nothing but lies? We'll find out. But you and I don't have to grant them the ground. To borrow one of their stupid phrases, they're "on the wrong side of history," or more importantly, "on the wrong side of the truth."
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henry quirk
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"you and I don't have to grant them the ground"

Post by henry quirk »

Of course not. A man cannot become a woman: he ought not be treated as though he were one.

Havin' said that, this...
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...still happened, is happenin'.

As I say: we're way past the point of rational or reasonable discussion, on a whole whack of subjects.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: "you and I don't have to grant them the ground"

Post by Immanuel Can »

henry quirk wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:01 pm Of course not. A man cannot become a woman: he ought not be treated as though he were one.

Havin' said that, this...

FF95556E-1199-4EC9-908A-80F5E38B03C9.jpeg

...still happened, is happenin'.

As I say: we're way past the point of rational or reasonable discussion, on a whole whack of subjects.
Dude is in the Olympics, too. Say "goodbye" to all the women's records in weightlifting, until the woke types wake up long enough to see what fools they've been.

That'll take some doing.
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henry quirk
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Re: "you and I don't have to grant them the ground"

Post by henry quirk »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:05 pm
henry quirk wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:01 pm Of course not. A man cannot become a woman: he ought not be treated as though he were one.

Havin' said that, this...

FF95556E-1199-4EC9-908A-80F5E38B03C9.jpeg

...still happened, is happenin'.

As I say: we're way past the point of rational or reasonable discussion, on a whole whack of subjects.
Dude is in the Olympics, too. Say "goodbye" to all the women's records in weightlifting, until *the woke types wake up long enough to see what fools they've been.

That'll take some doing.
*crazy folks don't become un-crazy, as a rule, not on their own, and, sure as shit, not when they run, or are damned close to runnin', the asylum.
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