A World Without Men?

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uwot
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Re: A World Without Men?

Post by uwot »

Age wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:15 amIt is like "einstein" is God, Itself, to you.
When Einstein introduced general relativity he, like you, was convinced that the universe was not expanding. As Newton had identified, gravity implies that the universe will shrink, so Einstein made up a force that exactly counteracts gravity. There are anecdotal stories of him calling that force the greatest blunder of his career. Einstein, unlike god, was fallible.
Age wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:15 amAgain, you are joking here, right? Do you REALLY BELIEVE that just because a human being called "einstein" ASSUMED and said this, then this could be used as ACTUAL PROOF that thee Universe is NOT eternal?
It is not because Einstein eventually said so. It is because of the galactic red shift, the cosmic microwave background radiation, the ratio of hydrogen and helium to heavier elements, the evolution of stars and galaxies, the fact that we are not overwhelmed by little green men from other systems and the fact that the universe didn't shrink to a fraction of it's current size eons ago.
Age wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:15 amAlso, and by the way, if gravity was going to be used to 'try to' defeat some thing, then it would be used to 'try to' defeat an infinite Universe and NOT an eternal Universe.
Age, your ignorance is showing again. Gravity does not prove the universe is not infinite. You could make a case that it implies a finite universe, but few people who know what they are talking about would nail their colours to any infinity post anyway.
Age wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:15 amLook, WHY the Universe does NOT contract because of gravity can be very easily explained and very easily understood, WITHOUT having to go into the ridiculous ASSUMPTIONS about God, nor an expanding Universe either.
You saying how easily things can be proven and then failing utterly to prove them is a bit of a feature.
Age wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:15 amFurthermore, let us NOT forget that 'you', human beings, also had to invent things up to continue with that age old BELIEF that 'in the beginning' the Universe was created. The issue here, however, is that NOT one of 'you' has ANY ACTUAL PROOF for this.
Indeed Age; there is no evidence for a creator.
Age wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:15 amAND, contrary to your BELIF "uwot", gravity is CERTAINLY NOT PROOF that the Universe cannot be eternal.

As I say, gravity, itself, WILL help in PROVING to 'you', human beings, just how thee Universe, Itself, is ACTUALLY infinite AND eternal.
Oh no it won't.
Age
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Re: A World Without Men?

Post by Age »

uwot wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:18 pm
Age wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:15 amIt is like "einstein" is God, Itself, to you.
When Einstein introduced general relativity he, like you, was convinced that the universe was not expanding.
But unlike that one who was ASSUMING things were true, BEFORE ACTUALLY CLARIFYING FIRST, I am NOT. I have only said that thee Universe is infinite and eternal AFTER this is what was ACTUALLY PROVED True. SEE, I NEVER even thought either way about this BEFORE.
uwot wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:18 pm As Newton had identified, gravity implies that the universe will shrink, so Einstein made up a force that exactly counteracts gravity.
But gravity does NOT imply that the Universe will shrink AT ALL, to me. To ASSUME this is just plain ABSURD, from my perspective. But then some people do ONLY LOOK at some things and NOT AT ALL things.

When one LOOKS AT ALL things, then what is CLEARLY SEEN is 'that' what IS ACTUALLY PROVEN True. Which is; JUST thee ACTUAL Truth of 'things'.
uwot wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:18 pm There are anecdotal stories of him calling that force the greatest blunder of his career. Einstein, unlike god, was fallible.
ALL of this REALLY has absolutely NOTHING AT ALL to do with what I have been SAYING and TALKING about.

You are introducing this stuff because you want to continue to BELIEVE what you do, but are completely and utterly incapable of PROVING that it is true.
uwot wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:18 pm
Age wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:15 amAgain, you are joking here, right? Do you REALLY BELIEVE that just because a human being called "einstein" ASSUMED and said this, then this could be used as ACTUAL PROOF that thee Universe is NOT eternal?
It is not because Einstein eventually said so. It is because of the galactic red shift, the cosmic microwave background radiation, the ratio of hydrogen and helium to heavier elements, the evolution of stars and galaxies, the fact that we are not overwhelmed by little green men from other systems and the fact that the universe didn't shrink to a fraction of it's current size eons ago.
But NONE of these things proves that thee Universe BEGAN and IS EXPANDING.

In fact, there IS blue shift AS WELL AS red shift, which, when LOOKED AT together, PROVES some thing, which is NOT "an expanding Universe'. The cosmic microwave background is just thought to be radiation leftover from some 'thing'. The ratio of hydrogen and helium to heavier elements does NOT PROVE the Universe BEGAN, nor IS EXPANDING. Green men is just ANOTHER DIVERSIONARY TACTIC. And, how do you KNOW the Universe did NOT shrink to a fraction of Its current size, ANY time ago?

If you can tell us how it could even be logically possible for Everything to have came from nothing, then please do.
uwot wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:18 pm
Age wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:15 amAlso, and by the way, if gravity was going to be used to 'try to' defeat some thing, then it would be used to 'try to' defeat an infinite Universe and NOT an eternal Universe.
Age, your ignorance is showing again. Gravity does not prove the universe is not infinite.
And gravity does NOT prove the Universe is NOT eternal ALSO.

You appear to be VERY CONFUSED here.
uwot wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:18 pm You could make a case that it implies a finite universe, but few people who know what they are talking about would nail their colours to any infinity post anyway.
YOUR, so called, "people who know what they are talking about", are also the EXACT SAME people who have to ADMIT that they do NOT have the ACTUAL PROOF for their, and your, CLAIMS here. But you are FREE to BELIEVE whatever you want to BELIEVE.

uwot wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:18 pm
Age wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:15 amLook, WHY the Universe does NOT contract because of gravity can be very easily explained and very easily understood, WITHOUT having to go into the ridiculous ASSUMPTIONS about God, nor an expanding Universe either.
You saying how easily things can be proven and then failing utterly to prove them is a bit of a feature.
This is be BECAUSE, as I have ALREADY EXPLAINED and PROVED True, people like 'you', "uwot", are NOT capable of learning ANY thing that OPPOSES what you ALREADY BELIEVE is true.

You BELIEVE wholeheartedly that the Universe BEGAN and IS EXPANDING. So, the ONLY thing that could be "proven" to you is the Universe BEGAN and IS EXPANDING. But because there is NO ACTUAL PROOF that exists, this is WHY the Universe BEGAN and IS EXPANDING is ONLY an ASSUMPTION, THEORY, HYPOTHESIS, or in other words just a plain old fashioned GUESS.
uwot wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:18 pm
Age wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:15 amFurthermore, let us NOT forget that 'you', human beings, also had to invent things up to continue with that age old BELIEF that 'in the beginning' the Universe was created. The issue here, however, is that NOT one of 'you' has ANY ACTUAL PROOF for this.
Indeed Age; there is no evidence for a creator.
YET, here you are SAYING and CLAIMING that the Universe BEGAN, either from NOTHING or from A Creator. Of which BOTH are EQUALLY ABSOLUTELY ABSURD, to me.

AND, the VERY REASON WHY you have absolutely NO PROOF for YOUR CLAIM here is because of just HOW ABSURD that CLAIM REALLY IS.
uwot wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:18 pm
Age wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:15 amAND, contrary to your BELIF "uwot", gravity is CERTAINLY NOT PROOF that the Universe cannot be eternal.

As I say, gravity, itself, WILL help in PROVING to 'you', human beings, just how thee Universe, Itself, is ACTUALLY infinite AND eternal.
Oh no it won't.
LOL Let us WAIT and SEE, BEFORE you are SO SURE of "yourself".

ONCE AGAIN, I suggest you GAIN ACTUAL CLARIFICATION, BEFORE you MAKE ANY ASSUMPTION. That way you will NEVER be as Wrong, as OFTEN as you ARE.
uwot
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Re: A World Without Men?

Post by uwot »

Age wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:27 pmBut gravity does NOT imply that the Universe will shrink AT ALL, to me.
I've said it before Age:
uwot wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:59 pmI have given you the answers Age, I just can't give you the smarts to understand them.
You have the option to acquaint yourself with a lot of facts about the universe, and try to create a coherent narrative based on what we know is true; or you can just make up some bullshit by stitching together a few things that make sense to you. The easiest person to fool is yourself; congratulations, you have succeeded.
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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: A World Without Men?

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

Oakley wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:28 pm Greetings all,

I'm new here, so before diving in I thought I might pause to gauge the interest of members in discussing the possibility of a world without men, that is, a world without male humans.

I've had this conversation elsewhere, and it seems that some folks find this topic highly offensive. Making trouble is not my intention, so it seems wise to at least briefly put my finger in the air to see which way the wind blows on this topic, on this forum. I'm particularly interested in guidance from the mods.

If this isn't going to work, ok, no problem. Just let me know and I'll drop it without complaint.

Thanks!
Well there probably wouldn't be any humans, so that's a good thing! For the earth and all else that lives, that is.
Age
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Re: A World Without Men?

Post by Age »

uwot wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:52 pm
Age wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:27 pmBut gravity does NOT imply that the Universe will shrink AT ALL, to me.
I've said it before Age:
uwot wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:59 pmI have given you the answers Age, I just can't give you the smarts to understand them.
You have the option to acquaint yourself with a lot of facts about the universe, and try to create a coherent narrative based on what we know is true; or you can just make up some bullshit by stitching together a few things that make sense to you. The easiest person to fool is yourself; congratulations, you have succeeded.
I claim the exact same thing, about you, except I would not say, "a lot of facts", and would replace this with "the actual facts'. I also replace, " and try to", with, 'which will'.

But we have opposing views, so which views are based on actual facts, which are obviously irrefutably True, Right, Accurate, and Correct, and which ones are not?

We will just have to wait and see. Or, do you already believe otherwise?

Are you able to prove your views are based on actual facts, which prove absolutely and irrefutably, once and for all, forever more, that the Universe began and is expanding?

If yes, then great.

But if no, then why not?
uwot
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Re: A World Without Men?

Post by uwot »

Age wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:54 am
uwot wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:52 pm
Age wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:27 pmBut gravity does NOT imply that the Universe will shrink AT ALL, to me.
I've said it before Age:
uwot wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:59 pmI have given you the answers Age, I just can't give you the smarts to understand them.
You have the option to acquaint yourself with a lot of facts about the universe, and try to create a coherent narrative based on what we know is true; or you can just make up some bullshit by stitching together a few things that make sense to you. The easiest person to fool is yourself; congratulations, you have succeeded.
I claim the exact same thing, about you, except I would not say, "a lot of facts", and would replace this with "the actual facts'. I also replace, " and try to", with, 'which will'.
You missed the point. Here it is again:
Age wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:27 pmBut gravity does NOT imply that the Universe will shrink AT ALL, to me.
'The actual fact' is that gravity does imply the universe will shrink. The only reason it doesn't imply it to you is that you don't understand. Nor do you understand that one hundred local galaxies that display blue shift are perfectly compatible with the overall expansion of the universe implied by the red shift displayed by one trillion other galaxies. It is only to you that one hundred and one trillion are equivalent. Any fool can create a coherent narrative if they ignore 'the actual facts'. You are one such fool.
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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: A World Without Men?

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

uwot wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 3:28 amThe actual fact' is that gravity does imply the universe will shrink. The only reason it doesn't imply it to you is that you don't understand. Nor do you understand that one hundred local galaxies that display blue shift are perfectly compatible with the overall expansion of the universe implied by the red shift displayed by one trillion other galaxies. It is only to you that one hundred and one trillion are equivalent. Any fool can create a coherent narrative if they ignore 'the actual facts'. You are one such fool.
Hey uwot. I've never believed that any human on planet earth with our relatively short lifespan can detect either red or blue shift as it pertains to stars. I know all about Doppler shift as I worked with it, as it pertains to sound. The reason it can be sensed here on earth is because the distances are relatively short such that one can easily experience (hear) the frequency shift, as it's compressed, during CPA and as it's expanded. To know Doppler shift we've experienced the shift with our ears.

I know that stars come in all colors. There are red and blue giants, white dwarfs, and yellow like our sun, etc.

I see that stars are at such an extreme distance that in one lifetime it's impossible to experience the shift of any one star, as it shifts from compression, to CPA, to expansion. The shift has to be experienced to know that it's shifted, else the color we see, we can only conclude, is simply the color of the star unshifted. There has to be differentiation for us to say we know, while actually knowing that the color has shifted from it's natural unshifted color.

I think I stated that clearly. If you find anything unclear don't hesitate to ask. If you care to, let me know how you've been taught that it's possible to know a star is shifted without witnessing it.
Atla
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Re: A World Without Men?

Post by Atla »

SpheresOfBalance wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:57 am
uwot wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 3:28 amThe actual fact' is that gravity does imply the universe will shrink. The only reason it doesn't imply it to you is that you don't understand. Nor do you understand that one hundred local galaxies that display blue shift are perfectly compatible with the overall expansion of the universe implied by the red shift displayed by one trillion other galaxies. It is only to you that one hundred and one trillion are equivalent. Any fool can create a coherent narrative if they ignore 'the actual facts'. You are one such fool.
Hey uwot. I've never believed that any human on planet earth with our relatively short lifespan can detect either red or blue shift as it pertains to stars. I know all about Doppler shift as I worked with it, as it pertains to sound. The reason it can be sensed here on earth is because the distances are relatively short such that one can easily experience (hear) the frequency shift, as it's compressed, during CPA and as it's expanded. To know Doppler shift we've experienced the shift with our ears.

I know that stars come in all colors. There are red and blue giants, white dwarfs, and yellow like our sun, etc.

I see that stars are at such an extreme distance that in one lifetime it's impossible to experience the shift of any one star, as it shifts from compression, to CPA, to expansion. The shift has to be experienced to know that it's shifted, else the color we see, we can only conclude, is simply the color of the star unshifted. There has to be differentiation for us to say we know, while actually knowing that the color has shifted from it's natural unshifted color.

I think I stated that clearly. If you find anything unclear don't hesitate to ask. If you care to, let me know how you've been taught that it's possible to know a star is shifted without witnessing it.
Never heard of absorption lines?
Age
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Re: A World Without Men?

Post by Age »

uwot wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 3:28 am
Age wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:54 am
uwot wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:52 pm I've said it before Age:You have the option to acquaint yourself with a lot of facts about the universe, and try to create a coherent narrative based on what we know is true; or you can just make up some bullshit by stitching together a few things that make sense to you. The easiest person to fool is yourself; congratulations, you have succeeded.
I claim the exact same thing, about you, except I would not say, "a lot of facts", and would replace this with "the actual facts'. I also replace, " and try to", with, 'which will'.
You missed the point. Here it is again:
Age wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:27 pmBut gravity does NOT imply that the Universe will shrink AT ALL, to me.
'The actual fact' is that gravity does imply the universe will shrink.
It ONLY "implies" 'that's to those people who make WRONG INTERPRETATIONS and WRONG ASSUMPTIONS.

Gravity does NOT "imply" the Universe WILL shrink, to me, BECAUSE I UNDERSTAND how gravity ACTUALLY works in relation to the how thee Universe ACTUALLY works, and how thee Universe does NOT shrink NOR does expand, but just stays in a state of constant-change ALWAYS.

Also, because of what thee Universe ACTUALLY IS composed of It could NEVER shrink, NOR expand, EVER.
Gravity is just a tiny part of the WHOLE.
uwot wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 3:28 am The only reason it doesn't imply it to you is that you don't understand.
This is just YOUR ASSUMPTION, ONLY. And what can be CLEARLY SEEN here is that you ACTUALLY BELIEVE it to be absolutely and irrefutably TRUE, correct?
uwot wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 3:28 amNor do you understand that one hundred local galaxies that display blue shift are perfectly compatible with the overall expansion of the universe implied by the red shift displayed by one trillion other galaxies. It is only to you that one hundred and one trillion are equivalent.
Here is ANOTHER ONE of your completely and utterly False, Wrong, and Incorrect ASSUMPTIONS.

While we are here, will you explain how, EXACTLY, one hundred local galaxies that display blue shift are PERFECTLY compatible with the EXPNDING Universe ASSUMPTION?

If no, then WHY NOT?
uwot wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 3:28 am Any fool can create a coherent narrative if they ignore 'the actual facts'. You are one such fool.
LOL And, ONCE AGAIN, you are still NOT YET understanding.

Did the Universe BEGIN and IS expanding 'an actual fact', or is this just what you BELIEVE is true?

Your Honest answer here, like ALWAYS, will be very much appreciated.
uwot
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Re: A World Without Men?

Post by uwot »

SpheresOfBalance wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:57 amHey uwot.
Hey Spheres.
SpheresOfBalance wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:57 amIf you care to, let me know how you've been taught that it's possible to know a star is shifted without witnessing it.
The first person to witness it was Vesto Slipher in about 1912. The actual colour of the star doesn't really matter. As Atla points out, what you are looking for is the unique pattern of absorption lines of the different elements. It's a bit like a bar code; if you can find a bar code, you know that the source of light, be it a planet, star, gas cloud, galaxy, whatever, contains the element associated with that bar code. In laboratory (co-moving, non-relativistic) conditions, that bar code is found in a specific place in the electromagnetic spectrum. If there is relative motion between the source and observer, then you have the Doppler effect. That doesn't change the pattern of the bar code, but it does change its position on the em spectrum. It's here in cartoon format, if you'd prefer: https://popgunsbubblesandmotorbikes.blo ... ter-1.html
uwot
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Re: A World Without Men?

Post by uwot »

Age wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 6:29 am
uwot wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 3:28 amThe actual fact' is that gravity does imply the universe will shrink.
It ONLY "implies" 'that's to those people who make WRONG INTERPRETATIONS and WRONG ASSUMPTIONS.
No Age, gravity implies the universe will collapse to everyone who understands gravity.
Age wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 6:29 amGravity does NOT "imply" the Universe WILL shrink, to me, BECAUSE I UNDERSTAND how gravity ACTUALLY works...
No you don't.
Age
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Re: A World Without Men?

Post by Age »

uwot wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:51 pm
Age wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 6:29 am
uwot wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 3:28 amThe actual fact' is that gravity does imply the universe will shrink.
It ONLY "implies" 'that's to those people who make WRONG INTERPRETATIONS and WRONG ASSUMPTIONS.
No Age, gravity implies the universe will collapse to everyone who understands gravity.
As I ALREADY alluded to, gravity ONLY implies the Universe will collapse, (or better worded 'contract'), to those people who do NOT YET FULLY understand how gravity ACTUALLY WORKS.

SEE, gravity is just the word used to explain the 'attraction' process, which naturally occurs with, and from, matter, itself. But what keeps matter separate and apart, from itself, is also just a naturally occurring process as well. Both are necessary as thee Universe, Itself, can ONLY exist in the One way that It does NOW.
uwot wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:51 pm
Age wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 6:29 amGravity does NOT "imply" the Universe WILL shrink, to me, BECAUSE I UNDERSTAND how gravity ACTUALLY works...
No you don't.
ONCE AGAIN, LOL.

Now you want to CLAIM that I do NOT understand how gravity actually works, which OBVIOUSLY means that you BELIEVE that you do KNOW how gravity ACTUALLY works. So, will you back up and support this CLAIM of YOURS by EXPLAINING how gravity ACTUALLY works?

If yes, then great.

But if no, then WHY NOT?
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Re: A World Without Men?

Post by Atla »

Age is channeling the universe-God, so to him, an expanding universe could mean that his ego also gets inflated to infinity.

So please people FOR THE LOVE OF GOD support the static model.
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Re: A World Without Men?

Post by Age »

uwot wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:32 pm
SpheresOfBalance wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:57 amHey uwot.
Hey Spheres.
SpheresOfBalance wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:57 amIf you care to, let me know how you've been taught that it's possible to know a star is shifted without witnessing it.
The first person to witness it was Vesto Slipher in about 1912. The actual colour of the star doesn't really matter. As Atla points out, what you are looking for is the unique pattern of absorption lines of the different elements. It's a bit like a bar code; if you can find a bar code, you know that the source of light, be it a planet, star, gas cloud, galaxy, whatever, contains the element associated with that bar code. In laboratory (co-moving, non-relativistic) conditions, that bar code is found in a specific place in the electromagnetic spectrum. If there is relative motion between the source and observer, then you have the Doppler effect. That doesn't change the pattern of the bar code, but it does change its position on the em spectrum. It's here in cartoon format, if you'd prefer: https://popgunsbubblesandmotorbikes.blo ... ter-1.html
What these people FAIL to understand when they witness 'red shifted galaxies' is that this does NOT necessarily mean that thee Universe, Itself, is expanding. That 'red shift' means thee Universe, Itself, is expanding is just an ASSUMPTION, INTERPRETATION, HYPOTHESIS, or GUESS, ONLY.

What 'red shift' ACTUALLY means is some thing ENTIRELY DIFFERENT. However, these people, unfortunately for them, have ALREADY DECIDED and CONCLUDED that 'red shift' IRREFUTABLY means "the Universe is expanding", and as such BELIEVE that this is true, right, and correct. And it is this BELIEF, itself, which is what is PREVENTING and STOPPING these people from learning what 'red shift' ACTUALLY MEANS.
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Re: A World Without Men?

Post by Impenitent »

uwot wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:32 pm ... Vesto Slipher ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesto_Slipher

lack of sleeves aside, that guy had a groovy name

-Imp
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