Harry Styles Wearing a Dress

Anything to do with gender and the status of women and men.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Gary Childress
Posts: 8117
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Harry Styles Wearing a Dress

Post by Gary Childress »

Apparently, a male has made "history" by being the first male to feature on the cover of Vogue Magazine by virtue of showing off what is traditionally considered women's wear. In some senses, I feel like I ought to care less about it but in others, it's just too tempting to ask:

1. Is there a slippery slope between one man putting on a dress in a fashion magazine and cross-dressing becoming a social norm?

2. And if it were to become a social norm for men and women to appear in almost any way imaginable (thereby eliminating the divide between male and female appearances), would it be a good thing or a bad thing?

To be honest, I'm a little bit undecided on both questions.
User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 13983
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re: Harry Styles Wearing a Dress

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

So I suppose that makes him a woman now :roll:
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: Harry Styles Wearing a Dress

Post by henry quirk »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:50 am So I suppose that makes him a woman now :roll:
no, just a pussy
Gary Childress
Posts: 8117
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Re: Harry Styles Wearing a Dress

Post by Gary Childress »

henry quirk wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:32 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:50 am So I suppose that makes him a woman now :roll:
no, just a pussy
And a Harry one too, I suppose.
Gary Childress
Posts: 8117
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Re: Harry Styles Wearing a Dress

Post by Gary Childress »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:50 am So I suppose that makes him a woman now :roll:
That's certainly another consideration. Does he get to use the ladies' room now, I wonder?
Skip
Posts: 2820
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:34 pm

Re: Harry Styles Wearing a Dress

Post by Skip »

Gary Childress wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:31 am 1. Is there a slippery slope between one man putting on a dress in a fashion magazine and cross-dressing becoming a social norm?
Oh yes! I believe it was Louis XIV started it by appearing at as masque as the goddess Athena in 1660 or '61... No but wait! All those priests and sheiks and Roman senators... Oooh, that's a long slide!
2. And if it were to become a social norm for men and women to appear in almost any way imaginable (thereby eliminating the divide between male and female appearances), would it be a good thing or a bad thing?
It would be no thing. Are you aware that woman have been wearing pants for over a century, since that daring young equestrianne borrowed her brother's jodhpurs because she was sick of jumping sidesaddle? Then they started wearing coulottes to ride bicycles, and overalls in the munition factories and then suits to the office...
To be honest, I'm a little bit undecided on both questions.
How many men are stupid enough to go around in the uncomfortable, drafty, overpriced apparel reserved for women? Thjat's not likely to become the unisex norm. Likely, women will abandon it in favour of the practical clothes no longer reserved for men. The only people that will discommode are transvestites.
Scott Mayers
Posts: 2446
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:53 am

Re: Harry Styles Wearing a Dress

Post by Scott Mayers »

Gary Childress wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:31 am Apparently, a male has made "history" by being the first male to feature on the cover of Vogue Magazine by virtue of showing off what is traditionally considered women's wear. In some senses, I feel like I ought to care less about it but in others, it's just too tempting to ask:

1. Is there a slippery slope between one man putting on a dress in a fashion magazine and cross-dressing becoming a social norm?

2. And if it were to become a social norm for men and women to appear in almost any way imaginable (thereby eliminating the divide between male and female appearances), would it be a good thing or a bad thing?

To be honest, I'm a little bit undecided on both questions.
I saw some other new music artist recently on one of the night-time talk shows that uses a video (because of Covid) where he did this too. I also new a friend of a friend who was trying to promote skirts for men. That was in the early-mid 1990s.

I think these are all fine. What I have always found troubling was how the original feminism turned around to embrace a Matriarchal belief that women should be permitted to dress as they like in workplaces that should men do the same, would be disapproved of for men BY THE VERY women who demand this. That is, I don't know any woman who would take an interest in a male who dressed effeminate. They'd like him as their 'gay' friend but even the remotest hint of the guy to be 'open' is a turn off.

Then there are those who think that one should be permitted to wear religious garments where the rest of the people in certain occupations are 'uniformed'. Here in Canada, many people think, for instance, that it is alright for Sihks to wear their religious head garment as police officers or in other government positions that deal with the public. But while it might be fair to them, they don't recognize that the non-uniformity they impose uniquely tells us that this person has such strict beliefs about his/her religion that you have to question whether they would serve your interests for NOT being one of them. If you believe in a genetic-cultural link, as many of these religions do, they interpret non-thems as lesser beings than themselves. No one thinks it would be wise to permit, for instance, one to wear a Nazi uniform. And with exception to their historical association, they do actually have artistic appeal.

I never liked high-heels on women, let alone those men who might opt to wear them, because they seem so awkward and is indifferent to the binding of women's feet of the ancient Chinese cultures. [Technically, high heels are a form of women worshiping older mature men, ...daddy figures. It mimicks the image of a small child standing on their toes to reach for a kiss. Oddly this has been FALSELY reinterpreted by many that this is about showing off one's calves???]

I like today's acceptance of all people to be comfortable in whatever they wear. But context should matter for ANYONE regardless.
Skip
Posts: 2820
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:34 pm

Re: Harry Styles Wearing a Dress

Post by Skip »

Scott Mayers wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:12 am I think these are all fine. What I have always found troubling was how the original feminism turned around to embrace a Matriarchal belief that women should be permitted to dress as they like in workplaces that should men do the same, would be disapproved of for men BY THE VERY women who demand this.
Can you direct me to the feminists who oppose men wearing 'feminine' clothing?
That is, I don't know any woman who would take an interest in a male who dressed effeminate. They'd like him as their 'gay' friend but even the remotest hint of the guy to be 'open' is a turn off.
Of course. Because it is effeminate. In many of its examples, it's downright stupid. Why would anyone voluntarily subject himself to that discomfort and indignity? Unless they were trying to project a sexual appeal to men who want their mates fragile, ethereal, incompetent, in need of help and protection, at least partly fictional? If you're trying to appeal to heterosexual male fantasy, you're unlikely to attract heterosexual females.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B_SxndVzyw
Then there are those who think that one should be permitted to wear religious garments where the rest of the people in certain occupations are 'uniformed'.
Odd, that you should juxtapose gender-denoting apparel with uniforms. That's pretty much what women's have been throughout civilization: an imposed mark of class.
However, the religious issue doesn't belong here.
Gary Childress
Posts: 8117
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:08 pm
Location: Retirement Home for foolosophers

Re: Harry Styles Wearing a Dress

Post by Gary Childress »

Scott Mayers wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:12 am
I like today's acceptance of all people to be comfortable in whatever they wear. But context should matter for ANYONE regardless.
When I was very young my mother tried to teach me how to crochet. I actually seemed to get the knack of it pretty well too. However, when my father found out, he had a fit. He wasn't going to have me hanging out with my mother and grandmother crocheting all day long. So I stopped it immediately. To this day, I still remember that event in my life. But I did a 180 degree about-face after he railed at us. I never tried crocheting again. Giving up crocheting wasn't the end of the world for me. In some senses, I sort of thank my father for that intervention. I'm an old bachelor now but I've found unexpected comfort in participating in society in ways I'm traditionally expected to participate. I look around me at some people railing against a brick wall trying to get people to accept their defiance of social norms and it doesn't look like a lot of fun. So I mostly behave in ways that are generally expected of me.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
User avatar
attofishpi
Posts: 9956
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:10 am
Location: Orion Spur
Contact:

Re: Harry Styles Wearing a Dress

Post by attofishpi »

Gary Childress wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:31 am Apparently, a male has made "history" by being the first male to feature on the cover of Vogue Magazine by virtue of showing off what is traditionally considered women's wear. In some senses, I feel like I ought to care less about it but in others, it's just too tempting to ask:

1. Is there a slippery slope between one man putting on a dress in a fashion magazine and cross-dressing becoming a social norm?

2. And if it were to become a social norm for men and women to appear in almost any way imaginable (thereby eliminating the divide between male and female appearances), would it be a good thing or a bad thing?

To be honest, I'm a little bit undecided on both questions.
Slippery slope to what? Wear whatever you feel like wearing. It gets pretty darn hot here, it'd be nice to wear a loose summer dress - it's ironic that because I have balls, I don't have the balls to wear a dress. Maybe a kilt is in order.
User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 13983
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re: Harry Styles Wearing a Dress

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

attofishpi wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:47 am
Gary Childress wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:31 am Apparently, a male has made "history" by being the first male to feature on the cover of Vogue Magazine by virtue of showing off what is traditionally considered women's wear. In some senses, I feel like I ought to care less about it but in others, it's just too tempting to ask:

1. Is there a slippery slope between one man putting on a dress in a fashion magazine and cross-dressing becoming a social norm?

2. And if it were to become a social norm for men and women to appear in almost any way imaginable (thereby eliminating the divide between male and female appearances), would it be a good thing or a bad thing?

To be honest, I'm a little bit undecided on both questions.
Slippery slope to what? Wear whatever you feel like wearing. It gets pretty darn hot here, it'd be nice to wear a loose summer dress - it's ironic that because I have balls, I don't have the balls to wear a dress. Maybe a kilt is in order.
People can wear what they like. There are few things sexier than a strapping Scotsman in a kilt, but when men put on a dress and a bit of lippy and claim that it makes them a woman then yes, I do have a problem with that.
Skip
Posts: 2820
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:34 pm

Re: Harry Styles Wearing a Dress

Post by Skip »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:22 am I never tried crocheting again. Giving up crocheting wasn't the end of the world for me.
No, it's not that important. It's just one skill you lost.... one of many that are closed to you because some bigot scared you off it. One of my uncles - who grew up in an Eastern European country in the early 20th century - was adept at all kinds of needlework and rug-hooking. He and his equally crafty wife shared those hobbies, made presents for many relatives and decorated their home through 60 years of a happy marriage. He was a forest ranger and nobody's idea of a cissy. It's just that my grandfather (district chief of police) was tolerant of all his children's interests and endeavours.
What happened to you has happened to most of the boys and girls who are now old men and women. Some of them don't feel that they've lost anything important, but some feel that their whole life has been blighted. It all depends on what pastime, activity, calling or passion they've been blocked from by other people's closed minds.
In some senses, I sort of thank my father for that intervention. I'm an old bachelor now but I've found unexpected comfort in participating in society in ways I'm traditionally expected to participate....So I mostly behave in ways that are generally expected of me.
Still bowing to other people's closed minds. If it works for you, that's fine. I hope you're not passing on your father's prejudice by limiting other people's freedom through your vote.
I look around me at some people railing against a brick wall trying to get people to accept their defiance of social norms and it doesn't look like a lot of fun.
It's not. But if somebody doesn't stick his or her head over the parapet once in a while, we'll never stop wearing badly tanned hides.
Scott Mayers
Posts: 2446
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:53 am

Re: Harry Styles Wearing a Dress

Post by Scott Mayers »

Skip wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:35 am
Scott Mayers wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:12 am I think these are all fine. What I have always found troubling was how the original feminism turned around to embrace a Matriarchal belief that women should be permitted to dress as they like in workplaces that should men do the same, would be disapproved of for men BY THE VERY women who demand this.
Can you direct me to the feminists who oppose men wearing 'feminine' clothing?
You mean point to those women who would NOT interpret that such men are worthy to date? I'm sure there are some. But I have yet to meet one personally. The women that I knew would like such men but NOT date them. OR, ...they themselves were gay! :lol:
That is, I don't know any woman who would take an interest in a male who dressed effeminate. They'd like him as their 'gay' friend but even the remotest hint of the guy to be 'open' is a turn off.
Of course. Because it is effeminate. In many of its examples, it's downright stupid. Why would anyone voluntarily subject himself to that discomfort and indignity? Unless they were trying to project a sexual appeal to men who want their mates fragile, ethereal, incompetent, in need of help and protection, at least partly fictional? If you're trying to appeal to heterosexual male fantasy, you're unlikely to attract heterosexual females. [/quote]
So you would be like those who think that one has to be strictly heterosexual or homosexual only?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B_SxndVzyw
Then there are those who think that one should be permitted to wear religious garments where the rest of the people in certain occupations are 'uniformed'.
Odd, that you should juxtapose gender-denoting apparel with uniforms. That's pretty much what women's have been throughout civilization: an imposed mark of class.
However, the religious issue doesn't belong here.
Why not? I gave this as an extra example to demonstrate that this mentality is fluent across other issues, not simply about one form of discrimination. But it is interesting to see that you cannot notice the relationship.
Scott Mayers
Posts: 2446
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:53 am

Re: Harry Styles Wearing a Dress

Post by Scott Mayers »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:22 am
Scott Mayers wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:12 am
I like today's acceptance of all people to be comfortable in whatever they wear. But context should matter for ANYONE regardless.
When I was very young my mother tried to teach me how to crochet. I actually seemed to get the knack of it pretty well too. However, when my father found out, he had a fit. He wasn't going to have me hanging out with my mother and grandmother crocheting all day long. So I stopped it immediately. To this day, I still remember that event in my life. But I did a 180 degree about-face after he railed at us. I never tried crocheting again. Giving up crocheting wasn't the end of the world for me. In some senses, I sort of thank my father for that intervention. I'm an old bachelor now but I've found unexpected comfort in participating in society in ways I'm traditionally expected to participate. I look around me at some people railing against a brick wall trying to get people to accept their defiance of social norms and it doesn't look like a lot of fun. So I mostly behave in ways that are generally expected of me.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I like that unique emogie. Is that your own?

I try EVERYTHING I can at least once. I didn't try crochetting but DID try knitting. I wanted to learn how mere binary moves (knit and perl) could create something that looks complex. So I made one sweater that was relatively plain but messed up the elastisity of the neck. Then I tried the most complex 'cardigan'. I got half way and the perfectionist in me didn't approve of a trivial error regarding 'slack' to one side of the design. So I stopped but still have it. I looked at the half-done job recently and wondered how the hell I thought I erred. Regardless, I learned how knitting was done. This was NOT originally a mere female occupation. I believe knitting, crochetting and weaving originated from sea faring fishermen (and women) for nets. That women were left with the task during early hunter-gathering societies is merely coincidental to the fact that a pregnant women was not likely going to be out hunting or fishing.

So your own acceptance of it being non-manly is just about a social stereotype that would not doubt change.

Now using a tampon might be going a bit too far. But even the first female wear was worn by both men and women, most particularly of the elite classes that ended in the 1800s. Note that pants (literally a real pair originally) would be unclean for males as it was for females until relatively recent. Toilette paper permitted pants to be worn and cowboys who had to wear these as 'chaps' (I think) were designed to prevent raw burn when riding horses only.

The nature of what USED to be female or male has changed. And I'm for it all. I would be proud to be a kid born in this generation knowing that you can invent yourself without concern of others' biases.

[I don't like drag though, even though I'm not against others doing it. I used to notice how they had an unusual common property: being unusually larger than the average males. I'm guessing that their stature permitted others to not mess with them as much? But things have changed even on that front. ....still not a personal fan though. But I'm not a fan of women who dress up like that either! (the high heels and caked makeup are unappealing to me no matter who wears it).]
Scott Mayers
Posts: 2446
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:53 am

Re: Harry Styles Wearing a Dress

Post by Scott Mayers »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:11 am
attofishpi wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:47 am
Gary Childress wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:31 am Apparently, a male has made "history" by being the first male to feature on the cover of Vogue Magazine by virtue of showing off what is traditionally considered women's wear. In some senses, I feel like I ought to care less about it but in others, it's just too tempting to ask:

1. Is there a slippery slope between one man putting on a dress in a fashion magazine and cross-dressing becoming a social norm?

2. And if it were to become a social norm for men and women to appear in almost any way imaginable (thereby eliminating the divide between male and female appearances), would it be a good thing or a bad thing?

To be honest, I'm a little bit undecided on both questions.
Slippery slope to what? Wear whatever you feel like wearing. It gets pretty darn hot here, it'd be nice to wear a loose summer dress - it's ironic that because I have balls, I don't have the balls to wear a dress. Maybe a kilt is in order.
People can wear what they like. There are few things sexier than a strapping Scotsman in a kilt, but when men put on a dress and a bit of lippy and claim that it makes them a woman then yes, I do have a problem with that.
There is a stage of evolution for change that makes the extremes stand out first. The 'gay' community, as the first brave homosexuals came out, assigned this term and stereotypes, even to this day, those particlar extremes that falsely imprint society into thinking of them as 'flamboyant'. The flamboyant gays still stereotype the community, as with the 'rainbow' symbols, and, from what I mentioned above, the 'drag queen' persona. Today people are preferring to NOT be defined. In fact, I thought it logically odd that one defines themselves by some 'posited preference' when the better way to recognize their biases is to represent this by how they are implying that they discriminate against a whole subclass of people.

If you've ever checked out those dating sites, for instance, if one asserts themselves "homosexual", is this not just the same thing as asserting whom they definitely would NOT date, rather than implying that they would date anyone and everyone of ONLY the same sex. So it is more appropriate to assert that WHO you are with is your sexual preference, not a whole sex.

[Note that the major dating sites used to NOT discriminate against men's height. THIS is above and beyond MORE discriminating of women than men because one cannot do anything to fix such deficits. And women, as mentioned above, not only disapprove of men who would be with other men, but that they hate being set up with someone who is not at least an inch taller than them. In fact, for some of us 'shorter' men, (and one reason I don't like heels), the discrimination is so bad that those major dating sites STOPPED permitting matches of short men to women!! Compare THAT to one who might judge a woman who is overweight when that is something that at least MAY be reasonably possible to fix. Most disappointing is how you can notice that many of the even shortest women tend to date a man who is abnormally a head taller than the female. No wonder women like those heels, right? But why the feminist today don't care to point out how THAT looks relatively like a grown man dating some eight year old child is telling.]
Post Reply