Is Liberty possible without the Ideal of the Nuclear Family?

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Nick_A
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Is Liberty possible without the Ideal of the Nuclear Family?

Post by Nick_A »

Marxists argue that the nuclear family performs ideological functions for Capitalism – the family acts as a unit of consumption and teaches passive acceptance of hierarchy. It is also the institution through which the wealthy pass down their private property to their children, thus reproducing class inequality.

Those who understand liberty know that capitalism is a tool the nuclear family uses to sustain itself and pass on to their children. It recognizes the essential difference between men and women. The essential value liberty defends is the ability for the nuclear family to pursue happiness as it is understood as in religion which is more than economics. Without the nuclear family, a strong central government appealing to Marxism is essential to take the place of the father.

The center of town for the marxist is a government office. For the nuclear family it is a church. That is the difference and why America is in decline.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Is Liberty possible without the Ideal of the Nuclear Family?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Liberty is conformity, well done, top quality philosophising there.
Nick_A
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Re: Is Liberty possible without the Ideal of the Nuclear Family?

Post by Nick_A »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:56 am Liberty is conformity, well done, top quality philosophising there.
Liberty doesn't come from the denial of obligations but from the voluntary acceptance of them. One way or another the essential needs of a society must be met. The ideal of the nuclear family serves this purpose.
The health of a democratic society may be measured by the quality of functions performed by private citizens. ~ Alexis de Tocqueville


When people reject voluntary obligations for the sake of having them imposed on them by a dictator, they will experience the joys of slavery.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Is Liberty possible without the Ideal of the Nuclear Family?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Maximum libertyy - everyone is completely free just as soon as they voluntarily choose the thing I choose for them to choose to choose. Top quality shit.
Skepdick
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Re: Is Liberty possible without the Ideal of the Nuclear Family?

Post by Skepdick »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:04 pm Maximum libertyy - everyone is completely free just as soon as they voluntarily choose the thing I choose for them to choose to choose. Top quality shit.
Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Philosophy can never do any better than "Everyone is completely free just as soon as they satisfy my definition of complete freedom"
Nick_A
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Re: Is Liberty possible without the Ideal of the Nuclear Family?

Post by Nick_A »

You don't have freedom or rights; you have obligations. From Simone weil's "The Need for Roots:"
The notion of obligations comes before that of rights, which is subordinate and relative to the former. A right is not effectual by itself, but only in relation to the obligation to which it corresponds, the effective exercise of a right springing not from the individual who possesses it, but from other men who consider themselves as being under a certain obligation towards him. Recognition of an obligation makes it effectual. An obligation which goes unrecognized by anybody loses none of the full force of its existence. A right which goes unrecognized by anybody is not worth very much.

It makes nonsense to say that men have, on the one hand, rights, and on the other hand, obligations. Such words only express differences in point of view. The actual relationship between the two is as between object and subject. A man, considered in isolation, only has duties, amongst which are certain duties towards himself. Other men, seen from his point of view, only have rights. He, in his turn, has rights, when seen from the point of view of other men, who recognize that they have obligations towards him. A man left alone in the universe would have no rights whatever, but he would have obligations.
Liberty is only possible when people accept voluntary obligations. The meaningful way to accomplish this is thru the nuclear family. The essences of men and women are complimentary and provide what is necessary to adopt the higher values essential for liberty.

Freedom and rights are not guaranteed. Rights coming from freedom are only made possible by the citizens of that society adopting voluntary obligations or the purpose of the nuclear family. As Simone Weil wrote: "A man left alone in the universe would have no rights whatever, but he would have obligations." We have the choice of adopting voluntary obligations or allowing slavery to the state giving you your obligtions. Either way, obligations come before rights and the nuclear family is an ideal which enables voluntary obligations.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is Liberty possible without the Ideal of the Nuclear Family?

Post by Immanuel Can »

I guess we could ask the experts...people who have had to make do without a nuclear family.

So we might ask all the single mothers if they think their job was hard or easy, and whether they thought of their lot as privileged or disadvantaged.

We might also ask them what they would have preferred, in the ideal -- to remain alone, or to find a committed, trustworthy male partner.

Or we could ask the gang members if it's easy or hard to grow up without a father.

We could ask daughters of single-parent homes how it worked for them, growing up without one of either a mother or a father.

We could also ask the children of alternate-arrangement "families" what they would have preferred.

There would be many ways of gathering data.

But whether all this was, or was not, instrumental to governments is quite a different question.
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Kayla
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Re: Is Liberty possible without the Ideal of the Nuclear Family?

Post by Kayla »

Nick_A wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 11:14 pm It recognizes the essential difference between men and women.
not following your reasoning here, I am afraid. I am married, with kids - but since I am married to a woman essential differences between men and women are not really an issue for my nuclear family.

Without the nuclear family, a strong central government appealing to Marxism is essential to take the place of the father.
have no idea how one might even respond to this. could you elaborate on your reasoning here?
The center of town for the marxist is a government office. For the nuclear family it is a church.
newsflash: atheists do nuclear families as well.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Is Liberty possible without the Ideal of the Nuclear Family?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

It's fine if you guys want to be massive conformists and ultra-conservatives. Just stop pretending you are maximizing liberty by telling everyone what life choices to make. You don't need to lie.
Nick_A
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Re: Is Liberty possible without the Ideal of the Nuclear Family?

Post by Nick_A »

Kayla wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:36 pm
Nick_A wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 11:14 pm It recognizes the essential difference between men and women.
not following your reasoning here, I am afraid. I am married, with kids - but since I am married to a woman essential differences between men and women are not really an issue for my nuclear family.

Without the nuclear family, a strong central government appealing to Marxism is essential to take the place of the father.
have no idea how one might even respond to this. could you elaborate on your reasoning here?
The center of town for the marxist is a government office. For the nuclear family it is a church.
newsflash: atheists do nuclear families as well.
Remember that the nuclear family is an ideal which seldom happens. It receives from above and gives to below. It does so by reconciling the yin/yang forces which determine what we do. As an atheist the ideal marriage and its purpose cannot resonate with you since there is no "above. I remember once reading that the man and woman can finally stop gazing at each other but together can learn to gaze above.

The relationship you have is based on yin/yin relationship which by definition lacks the balance to "look above" It is incapable of the ideal marriage is based upon imbalance. This has nothing to do with good or bad. I'm not the ideal man yet I know they exist. The ideal is necessary for a free society to remember its purpose

The ideal traditional nuclear family has a quality of energy about it the uniting of yin and yang, necessary to sustain liberty. by together receiving from above and giving to below as they exist within society. This is the ideal. It is rare but still the ideal is essential to sustain the benefits of freedom.
Without the nuclear family, a strong central government appealing to Marxism is essential to take the place of the father.

have no idea how one might even respond to this. could you elaborate on your reasoning here?


What do you think the purpose of the father is in the traditional nuclear family? Do you agree that marxism makes the father unnecessary.
Nick_A
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Re: Is Liberty possible without the Ideal of the Nuclear Family?

Post by Nick_A »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 10:38 pm It's fine if you guys want to be massive conformists and ultra-conservatives. Just stop pretending you are maximizing liberty by telling everyone what life choices to make. You don't need to lie.
It is a basic philosophoical question: What is the purpose of the traditional nuclear family and how is it related to the three forces of the Trinity and the three Gunas in Hinduism?

It isn't matter of telling anyone what to do but rather raising the question of the value of the nuclear family and what it represents.
Nick_A
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Re: Is Liberty possible without the Ideal of the Nuclear Family?

Post by Nick_A »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:10 pm I guess we could ask the experts...people who have had to make do without a nuclear family.

So we might ask all the single mothers if they think their job was hard or easy, and whether they thought of their lot as privileged or disadvantaged.

We might also ask them what they would have preferred, in the ideal -- to remain alone, or to find a committed, trustworthy male partner.

Or we could ask the gang members if it's easy or hard to grow up without a father.

We could ask daughters of single-parent homes how it worked for them, growing up without one of either a mother or a father.

We could also ask the children of alternate-arrangement "families" what they would have preferred.

There would be many ways of gathering data.

But whether all this was, or was not, instrumental to governments is quite a different question.
John Adams in a speech to the military in 1798 warned his fellow countrymen stating, "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion . . . Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
That is the idea. The traditional nuclear family serves a purpose essential for liberty. Is this just religious blind fundamentalism or is their sound reasoning behind it?
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Is Liberty possible without the Ideal of the Nuclear Family?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Nick_A wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:26 am
FlashDangerpants wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 10:38 pm It's fine if you guys want to be massive conformists and ultra-conservatives. Just stop pretending you are maximizing liberty by telling everyone what life choices to make. You don't need to lie.
It is a basic philosophoical question: What is the purpose of the traditional nuclear family and how is it related to the three forces of the Trinity and the three Gunas in Hinduism?

It isn't matter of telling anyone what to do but rather raising the question of the value of the nuclear family and what it represents.
You're blatantly running through a random list of nonsense to invoke while inflicting your trivial judgment on others. Freedom, Trinities, Yin and Yang, whatever a Guna might be, these are all just bullshit props, dragged on stage so that you can prtetend your arch-traditionalist comformism is important in some way.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is Liberty possible without the Ideal of the Nuclear Family?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Nick_A wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:37 am That is the idea. The traditional nuclear family serves a purpose essential for liberty. Is this just religious blind fundamentalism or is their sound reasoning behind it?
What has "religious fundamentalism" got to do with anything here? Are you suggesting that only "religious fundamentalists" have nuclear families, or that there's not any reason a secular person would have for thinking the nuclear family is a good idea?

None of the cases I suggested above was religious. Where are you getting that from?
Nick_A
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Re: Is Liberty possible without the Ideal of the Nuclear Family?

Post by Nick_A »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:45 am
Nick_A wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:26 am
FlashDangerpants wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 10:38 pm It's fine if you guys want to be massive conformists and ultra-conservatives. Just stop pretending you are maximizing liberty by telling everyone what life choices to make. You don't need to lie.
It is a basic philosophoical question: What is the purpose of the traditional nuclear family and how is it related to the three forces of the Trinity and the three Gunas in Hinduism?

It isn't matter of telling anyone what to do but rather raising the question of the value of the nuclear family and what it represents.
You're blatantly running through a random list of nonsense to invoke while inflicting your trivial judgment on others. Freedom, Trinities, Yin and Yang, whatever a Guna might be, these are all just bullshit props, dragged on stage so that you can prtetend your arch-traditionalist comformism is important in some way.
Plato described Man as being a tripartite soul . He said in Book 4 that there are three main “psychological” forces at work in an individual—the force which has as its object physical entities and money; the force which has as its object nonmaterial but worldly entities such as honor and victory; and the force which has as its object the insensible realm of the Forms.

Now anyone with Any philosophical curiosity will ponder why these three forces are so important in Christianity, Hinduism, and for Plato. You see it as a random bunch of nonsense and yet being third force blind explains much of why society is as it is. Philosophy gives us the opportunity to remember what has been forgotten. Why fight so hard to deny this essential purpose of philosophy?
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