Is Liberty possible without the Ideal of the Nuclear Family?

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Nick_A
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Re: Is Liberty possible without the Ideal of the Nuclear Family?

Post by Nick_A »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:16 am
Nick_A wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:37 am That is the idea. The traditional nuclear family serves a purpose essential for liberty. Is this just religious blind fundamentalism or is their sound reasoning behind it?
What has "religious fundamentalism" got to do with anything here? Are you suggesting that only "religious fundamentalists" have nuclear families, or that there's not any reason a secular person would have for thinking the nuclear family is a good idea?

None of the cases I suggested above was religious. Where are you getting that from?
No, you misunderstood. Blind religious fundamentalism is a conditioned belief. It relies on habit rather than impartial reason leading to noesis. It is faith IN Christ rather than the faith OF Christ. Often marriage built on appearance and conditioned habits easily ends in divorce since nothing was experienced.

That is why traditional marriage is an ideal. It is the result of people with direct religious experience of their relationship to each other in the context of their united relationship to God. It grows and connects them with above rather than ending in divorce because they became unhappy.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Is Liberty possible without the Ideal of the Nuclear Family?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Nick_A wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:38 am
FlashDangerpants wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:45 am
Nick_A wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:26 am

It is a basic philosophoical question: What is the purpose of the traditional nuclear family and how is it related to the three forces of the Trinity and the three Gunas in Hinduism?

It isn't matter of telling anyone what to do but rather raising the question of the value of the nuclear family and what it represents.
You're blatantly running through a random list of nonsense to invoke while inflicting your trivial judgment on others. Freedom, Trinities, Yin and Yang, whatever a Guna might be, these are all just bullshit props, dragged on stage so that you can prtetend your arch-traditionalist comformism is important in some way.
Plato described Man as being a tripartite soul . He said in Book 4 that there are three main “psychological” forces at work in an individual—the force which has as its object physical entities and money; the force which has as its object nonmaterial but worldly entities such as honor and victory; and the force which has as its object the insensible realm of the Forms.

Now anyone with Any philosophical curiosity will ponder why these three forces are so important in Christianity, Hinduism, and for Plato. You see it as a random bunch of nonsense and yet being third force blind explains much of why society is as it is. Philosophy gives us the opportunity to remember what has been forgotten. Why fight so hard to deny this essential purpose of philosophy?
Specious, arbitrary bullshit. But also, nothing to do with liberty, and nothing to do with nuclear families, at least unless you are now devolving into just listing things which come in 3 parts, and imagining they all mystically connected, which would be fun for me, I think we can list lots of other things that come in 3 parts if we try.

You've wandered completely away from your nonsense about gender roles and are now just waffling about religion in general, there's a religion sub for that, the Gender sub is for hopeless incels to post mysoginistic content and generally advertise their subliminal lust for ladyboys.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is Liberty possible without the Ideal of the Nuclear Family?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Nick_A wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:03 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:16 am
Nick_A wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:37 am That is the idea. The traditional nuclear family serves a purpose essential for liberty. Is this just religious blind fundamentalism or is their sound reasoning behind it?
What has "religious fundamentalism" got to do with anything here? Are you suggesting that only "religious fundamentalists" have nuclear families, or that there's not any reason a secular person would have for thinking the nuclear family is a good idea?

None of the cases I suggested above was religious. Where are you getting that from?
No, you misunderstood. Blind religious fundamentalism is a conditioned belief.
I'm not questioning that. I'm asking what the heck it has to do with the nuclear family. I see no connection at all, necessarily.
Nick_A
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Re: Is Liberty possible without the Ideal of the Nuclear Family?

Post by Nick_A »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:56 am
Nick_A wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:03 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:16 am
What has "religious fundamentalism" got to do with anything here? Are you suggesting that only "religious fundamentalists" have nuclear families, or that there's not any reason a secular person would have for thinking the nuclear family is a good idea?

None of the cases I suggested above was religious. Where are you getting that from?
No, you misunderstood. Blind religious fundamentalism is a conditioned belief.
I'm not questioning that. I'm asking what the heck it has to do with the nuclear family. I see no connection at all, necessarily.
A man and woman can have a traditional marriage with no idea what it means. It is an empty ritual only serving a legal and societal norm. However it has a far deeper meaning most are unaware of. The union of the father and mother for those having felt the influence of the spirit serves to connect them with the higher level of reality or the Christ. At the same time this union can produce a child. This union can receive from above and give to below in the form of the child. Both are called traditional marriage but are entirely different. The secular doesn't feel the the quality of the Spirit.

I am suggesting that the quality of energy produced by the nuclear family nourishes and awakens people around them so benefits society by helping to make voluntary obligations necessary for liberty possible
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is Liberty possible without the Ideal of the Nuclear Family?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Nick_A wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:49 am The union of the father and mother for those having felt the influence of the spirit serves to connect them with the higher level of reality or the Christ.
Oh, mysticism.

No, there's nothing inherently salvific about the nuclear family. I agree it can have a symbolic function, but the fact of having a nuclear family does not actually have spiritual efficacy. There are many unhealthy nuclear families in which any symbol can simply be eradicated by bad behaviour or indifference.
Nick_A
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Re: Is Liberty possible without the Ideal of the Nuclear Family?

Post by Nick_A »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:56 pm
Nick_A wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:49 am The union of the father and mother for those having felt the influence of the spirit serves to connect them with the higher level of reality or the Christ.
Oh, mysticism.

No, there's nothing inherently salvific about the nuclear family. I agree it can have a symbolic function, but the fact of having a nuclear family does not actually have spiritual efficacy. There are many unhealthy nuclear families in which any symbol can simply be eradicated by bad behaviour or indifference.
What IYO is the purpose of the Christian marriage? It is an ideal which rarely happens. Is it strictly for show and an empty ritual or when it happens does it serve God, the participants, and humanity as a whole? It isn't for everyone but for those who can be made whole as described in Genesis since the origin of Eve was Adams rib, it can serve as an awakening leading leading to a salvific result. Do you believe that the ideal of the Christian marriage is more than just for show?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is Liberty possible without the Ideal of the Nuclear Family?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Nick_A wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:06 pm ...it can serve as an awakening leading leading to a salvific result.
Many things can.

A misfortune or fit of good fortune, a birth, a death, a miracle, a disease, an intellectual discovery, a moment of peace, or any major transition of life, such as awakening to one's age...all these things can awaken somebody to his/her need of salvation, but none of these things IS salvation, obviously. It would not be plausible to say, "Cancer saved my soul," but only "Cancer was the circumstance that awoke me to my mortality (though it could have been different circumstances, had I not had cancer), and I went seeking salvation (from something else)."

So to say that something "can serve" to "lead to" a "salvific result" is not at all to show that the thing IN ITSELF is salvific at all.

But I should point out again, as well, that we're talking here not about "marriage" per se, but about "the nuclear family," as in the OP, as an "ideal", and not about how it is "salvific" but how it conduces to "liberty." So I suggest that we not do a bait-and-switch here. That will just annoy people.

Back to the topic: is it your view that, say, a single-parent person who still believes in the ideal of the nuclear family, though she is not able to have one, can still make possible liberty? Or is it your claim that only nuclear families that actually exist as such can be conducive to liberty?
Nick_A
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Re: Is Liberty possible without the Ideal of the Nuclear Family?

Post by Nick_A »

IC
Back to the topic: is it your view that, say, a single-parent person who still believes in the ideal of the nuclear family, though she is not able to have one, can still make possible liberty? Or is it your claim that only nuclear families that actually exist as such can be conducive to liberty?
No. Liberty requires the conscious awareness of and attraction to higher values. Where do they come from? Did Man create his awareness of beauty for example or did he "remember" beauty with help from above?

We can say "In god we Trust" or in society or the Great Beast we trust. I am not referring to which God but the awareness that human meaning has its origin from above. Which path offers awakening to the higher values necessary to sustain liberty and which path invites the struggle for power within society.

It isn't a matter of what we believe but what we have experienced. A single parent who believes out of fear and conditioning is now called a normal woman. Nothing is understood

Are you familiar with the concept of metaxu described by Plato. It is the middle between Man on earth And his source. Society has a metaxu. It can invite opening the mind through the arts and ideas. Contemplating the nuclear family and what it is as compared to what we are is a healthy expression of metaxu. It is the middle between what we are and man's conscious potential. So even though it is rare and often impossible due to the human condition, efforts to create the nuclear family and honor it reminds us of the higher values essential to sustain liberty.

When we lose our attraction to higher values, what is left but the struggle for power: might makes right.
gaffo
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Re: Is Liberty possible without the Ideal of the Nuclear Family?

Post by gaffo »

Is Liberty possible without the Ideal of the Nuclear Family?

of course. its not even related to nuclear nor poligamy famialies or non families.

its about the individual.
FlashDangerpants wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:56 am Liberty is conformity
no, its the opposite in fact.

liberty is about being/doing whatever you want as long as you do not threaten others liberty.

that means i can fuck any animals i want, bay at the moon and cover myself with blood for all to see.
Nick_A
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Re: Is Liberty possible without the Ideal of the Nuclear Family?

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gaffo wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:20 am Is Liberty possible without the Ideal of the Nuclear Family?

of course. its not even related to nuclear nor poligamy famialies or non families.

its about the individual.
FlashDangerpants wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:56 am Liberty is conformity
no, its the opposite in fact.

liberty is about being/doing whatever you want as long as you do not threaten others liberty.

that means i can fuck any animals i want, bay at the moon and cover myself with blood for all to see.
Liberty isn't about the individual. A person alone in the world isn't free. They only have obligations to survive mother nature. You can fuck all the animals you like but must protect yourself from the animals who want to fuck you who are bigger than you. That is the problem. Liberty is better achieved through cooperation of all those in the same boat who must deal with mother nature.

This leads to governments with a far greater ability to fuck you than any animal can think of and govern you by their secular standards like it or not.

The smallest government is the Nuclear family based on God's laws or universal principles if you prefer which IMO is the best potential for liberty. One nation under God with the diversity of families existing as ONE. Who knows what that is? It is knowledge of the future if we can make it that far before being fucked to death by Man or Beast
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henry quirk
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Re: Is Liberty possible without the Ideal of the Nuclear Family?

Post by henry quirk »

liberty is about being/doing whatever you want as long as you do not threaten others liberty.

no, it's not

you're describin' license, not liberty

bein' free is about self-direction & self-responsibility; it ain't about whimsy and actin' like a doofus
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is Liberty possible without the Ideal of the Nuclear Family?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Nick_A wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:06 pm IC
Back to the topic: is it your view that, say, a single-parent person who still believes in the ideal of the nuclear family, though she is not able to have one, can still make possible liberty? Or is it your claim that only nuclear families that actually exist as such can be conducive to liberty?
Contemplating the nuclear family and what it is as compared to what we are is a healthy expression of metaxu.
So...all a person needs is to believe in the nuclear family, and they get to be conducive to liberty. They don't have to have a nuclear family. That seems to be your answer.

Concisely, then: is that right?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is Liberty possible without the Ideal of the Nuclear Family?

Post by Immanuel Can »

henry quirk wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:29 pm liberty is about being/doing whatever you want as long as you do not threaten others liberty.

no, it's not

you're describin' license, not liberty

bein' free is about self-direction & self-responsibility; it ain't about whimsy and actin' like a doofus
Right. Sartre actually claimed men are "condemned to be free." If being free was always fun, why would he say that? But he knew it isn't.

Liberty comes with a ton of responsibility. For one thing, you can't be liberated and still looking to be directed entirely by your society. Then, if you have liberty, you are not guaranteed a result; you have freedom to make good choices, but also freedom to make bad ones. For a free-thinking person, there are no prefabricated roads, no certainties, nothing decided-before-choice, and certainly no promises of success. Freedom, Sartre saw, creates angst. It's a landscape without a map. It's a program with no schedule. Its a risk without safety rails. It's a burden that cannot be relieved.

True, it has promises of allowing authenticity, personhood, and possible rewards if it is taken up. But only the first two are guaranteed if one takes liberty seriously; the last one may or may not happen. That's the reality of things.

"Condemned to be free." That's it.

The problem with our modern societies is not that they don't have enough liberty; it's that they feel they have too much, and want much of it taken away and given over to governments, so they can be relieved of all the burdens of liberty.
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henry quirk
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Re: Is Liberty possible without the Ideal of the Nuclear Family?

Post by henry quirk »

you can't be liberated and still looking to be directed entirely by your society...

...or your appetites


The problem with our modern societies is not that they don't have enough liberty; it's that they feel they have too much

seems to me, the problem isn't about too much or too little liberty, but about a largely successful redefinin' of liberty, makin' it synonymous with license (see gaffo's comment up-thread)

the thing about liberty is it involves deliberatin' (de-liberation): it's about intent, not impulse

and -- yeah -- I'm usin' liberty & freedom interchangeably
Nick_A
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Re: Is Liberty possible without the Ideal of the Nuclear Family?

Post by Nick_A »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 6:53 pm
Nick_A wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:06 pm IC
Back to the topic: is it your view that, say, a single-parent person who still believes in the ideal of the nuclear family, though she is not able to have one, can still make possible liberty? Or is it your claim that only nuclear families that actually exist as such can be conducive to liberty?
Contemplating the nuclear family and what it is as compared to what we are is a healthy expression of metaxu.
So...all a person needs is to believe in the nuclear family, and they get to be conducive to liberty. They don't have to have a nuclear family. That seems to be your answer.

Concisely, then: is that right?
Yes. Suppose young lady dreams of marriage as something special. She believes it to be a union under God with the goal of child. Now suppose a young man is looking for a wife as opposed to a plaything. He will be attracted to the girl who carries herself as a woman of quality as opposed to a plaything. He will be attracted to both. Each woman serves a purpose but if he is a man of quality, he will eventually be drawn to quality.

But the bottom line is that marriage is felt as a union of energies under God and promotes the awareness of why people are attracted to their source. When marriage becomes meaningless it only promotes a secular ritual Which serves society and its need to make money buying clothes, renting halls and giving only the appearance of being special. The effect is to diminish metaxu
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