Is marriage / relationships an oppressive gender role for men and women?

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IvoryBlackBishop
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Is marriage / relationships an oppressive gender role for men and women?

Post by IvoryBlackBishop »

I wouldn't argue against it as a universal rule, (e.x. that no one should marry, particularily if out of some childish sexual resentment rather than sound reasoning) as that would be nihilistic.

Regardless, I believe that marriage or relationships as an institution have the potential to be oppressive; particularly if they are erroneously or foolishly viewed as some "be-all-end-all" of life, rather than a simple aspect of an otherwise fulfilled life, in ignorance of history and much literary wisdom, whether St. Paul in the Bible advising against marriage for some people, Epicurus arguing that it would be better to be "single" and have good platonic friends, than to be married but miserable, or various historical figures who never married but were reknowned for other major live investments (e.x. Isaac Newton, Adam Smith, Emily Dickenson, just to name a few).

It's no open secret, either today or in any popular historical area, that many marriages are less than happy, some outright miserable, whether due to the incompetance, immaturity, or ineptitude of those in the marrage; my honest believe is that miserable people will be "equally miserable" or find someone to share their misery with; and sadly one has to demonstrate more "personal responsibility" to get a driver's license than to marry or have a kid.

My view will come off as a bit nihlistic, and I don't believe that every married couple is necessarily unfulfilled, but it's my honest sentiments and evaluation regardless.
Last edited by IvoryBlackBishop on Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Is marriage / relationships an oppressive gender role for men and?

Post by Dontaskme »

My opinion...

Marriage of two people is legalized slavery, disguised as love.
IvoryBlackBishop
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Re: Is marriage / relationships an oppressive gender role for men and?

Post by IvoryBlackBishop »

Dontaskme wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:12 pm My opinion...

Marriage of two people is legalized slavery, disguised as love.
Can you explain that one?

If it's consensual, and the couple can divorce or separate, how is it "slavery"?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is marriage / relationships an oppressive gender role for men and?

Post by Immanuel Can »

IvoryBlackBishop wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:03 pm Regardless, I believe that marriage or relationships as an institution have the potential to be oppressive...
Anything has "the potential to be oppressive."

The question is not the abuse of the institution, but it's right use. For it is not obvious that a marriage relationship must degenerate into tyranny, or avarice, or abuse, or any other such pathology. But can it be done right, and when it's done right, what is its value and utility?
IvoryBlackBishop
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Re: Is marriage / relationships an oppressive gender role for men and?

Post by IvoryBlackBishop »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 3:41 pm
IvoryBlackBishop wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:03 pm Regardless, I believe that marriage or relationships as an institution have the potential to be oppressive...
Anything has "the potential to be oppressive."

The question is not the abuse of the institution, but it's right use. For it is not obvious that a marriage relationship must degenerate into tyranny, or avarice, or abuse, or any other such pathology. But can it be done right, and when it's done right, what is its value and utility?
You're asking me what its value and utility is when it's done right?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is marriage / relationships an oppressive gender role for men and?

Post by Immanuel Can »

IvoryBlackBishop wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:05 pmYou're asking me what its value and utility is when it's done right?
I'm asking everybody.

If you have a view of that, of course you can say it.
IvoryBlackBishop
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Re: Is marriage / relationships an oppressive gender role for men and?

Post by IvoryBlackBishop »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:10 pm
IvoryBlackBishop wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:05 pmYou're asking me what its value and utility is when it's done right?
I'm asking everybody.

If you have a view of that, of course you can say it.
Given that marriages and familes are a part of society, but certainly not everything nor the entirety of a mature, thinking man or woman's accomplishments presently or historically, I think to assert that "no one" should get married (especially if predicated on some irrational, anti-intellectual or superstitious resentment of one sex or another), would be nihilistic.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is marriage / relationships an oppressive gender role for men and?

Post by Immanuel Can »

IvoryBlackBishop wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:28 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:10 pm
IvoryBlackBishop wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:05 pmYou're asking me what its value and utility is when it's done right?
I'm asking everybody.

If you have a view of that, of course you can say it.
Given that marriages and familes are a part of society, but certainly not everything nor the entirety of a mature, thinking man or woman's accomplishments presently or historically, I think to assert that "no one" should get married (especially if predicated on some irrational, anti-intellectual or superstitious resentment of one sex or another), would be nihilistic.
Okay, fair enough...no nihilistic resentment. I think we can all agree on that. Or we should, anyway.

But now, do you foresee problems for, say, reproduction, equity and child development if the institution fell into general disrepute? Or do you think we really wouldn't lose anything?
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Lacewing
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Re: Is marriage / relationships an oppressive gender role for men and?

Post by Lacewing »

I think...

> it's a business arrangement... to reinforce whatever roles or business both people want to establish.

> it's unnecessary... when people are just as capable of uniting themselves without it.

> there are better ways of demonstrating and celebrating love and commitment for each other.

> it seems like an archaic and wasteful practice (like religion) when regarded as a societal requirement.

> it can feel oppressive to anyone.
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stacie
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Re: Is marriage / relationships an oppressive gender role for men and women?

Post by stacie »

What would you replace marriage with?

There are plenty of people who decide that marriage is told hat, and just live together - being in effect a married couple but lacking certain legal protections. Why not just get married?
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Lacewing
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Re: Is marriage / relationships an oppressive gender role for men and women?

Post by Lacewing »

stacie wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 12:39 am What would you replace marriage with?
Domestic partnership? I think it should have access to the same benefits that married partnerships do.
stacie wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 12:39 amThere are plenty of people who decide that marriage is told hat, and just live together - being in effect a married couple but lacking certain legal protections. Why not just get married?
Marriage works for some people -- but it shouldn't be required by society. I've known people who've had great long-term relationships, then they get married and the energy shifts, and the union deteriorates. I think there can be unexpected baggage and expectations that arise from marriage, including weird "roles", which is why I don't want to get married again. Personally, I felt trapped as soon as I did it. Even though I'm naturally a totally committed person to a relationship. I guess I like knowing that every day is based on choice rather than promise?
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stacie
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Re: Is marriage / relationships an oppressive gender role for men and women?

Post by stacie »

Lacewing wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 3:13 am Domestic partnership? I think it should have access to the same benefits that married partnerships do.
Then it just becomes marriage by another name. Not sure what changes?
Marriage works for some people -- but it shouldn't be required by society.
In most places marriage in not mandatory.

At the minimum, marriage is a formal recognition that the people involved are not just roommates who happen to be sleeping together. That seems appropriate in many cases, especially if children, property, pensions, etc. are involved.
surreptitious57
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Re: Is marriage / relationships an oppressive gender role for men and women?

Post by surreptitious57 »

stacie wrote:
What would you replace marriage with ?
Not have marriage vows valid until death because too many changes to a couple can happen over the course of their life time
Make marriage short term contracts that are simply not renewed if the couple decide they dont want to be married any more
And so no divorce and therefore no third parties such as lawyers becoming involved or at least not unless they really have to
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Lacewing
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Re: Is marriage / relationships an oppressive gender role for men and women?

Post by Lacewing »

stacie wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 3:43 pm
Lacewing wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 3:13 am Domestic partnership? I think it should have access to the same benefits that married partnerships do.
Then it just becomes marriage by another name. Not sure what changes?

In most places marriage in not mandatory.

At the minimum, marriage is a formal recognition that the people involved are not just roommates who happen to be sleeping together. That seems appropriate in many cases, especially if children, property, pensions, etc. are involved.
I'm thinking about the commonly-held social constructs and attitudes surrounding marriage. I think the institution of marriage is typically as convoluted as religion, and I would like to see both replaced by practices that are less dense and rigid. :D Marriages can keep people tied up for many years of their lives because they dread going through the divorce process. And some people go into marriages for the benefits they aren't offered without it.

Taxes and health insurance should be fair for all, regardless of marital status -- and the government shouldn't care one bit about who is married.

I know these concepts/practices are evolving... along with our mindsets... it just doesn't seem fast enough sometimes. I am wary of old associations/patterns, even when we tell ourselves that we can be above it. It seems to take major shifts for most people to evolve clearly into new territory.
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stacie
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Re: Is marriage / relationships an oppressive gender role for men and women?

Post by stacie »

Lacewing wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 4:36 pm
I know these concepts/practices are evolving... along with our mindsets... it just doesn't seem fast enough sometimes. I am wary of old associations/patterns, even when we tell ourselves that we can be above it. It seems to take major shifts for most people to evolve clearly into new territory.
As far as I can tell, my generation is actually more optimistic about marriage than our parents.

But I could be judging my generation by my peer group - Catholic school students who get good grades in religion classes - and this group is not representative of my generation.
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