Is There Such a Thing as Too Different?

Anything to do with gender and the status of women and men.

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Gary Childress
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Re: Is There Such a Thing as Too Different?

Post by Gary Childress »

henry quirk wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:35 am
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:12 am
henry quirk wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:45 am

No, it's really not.
I don't know. I think sometimes when we draw lines in the sand we create the grounds for unfairly discriminating against some people. We call them "freaks" or "queer" or "ill" and it harms their careers and their lives. I think there's something at stake here. Transsexuals are still human beings and deserve to be able to live and flourish just like any other human being--as much as possible. I mean, there's no God-given law that says, "thou shalt not change thy gender" that we can be 100% certain of. If someone wants to do that and then teach at a school (and they do a good job), then they can knock themselves out. More power to them.
Well, those are legit concerns, but I ain't involved in any of that.

I only differ from you in askin'' about the conspicuousness of the tranny. The bearded guy in a dress who demands to be be adressed as Miss So & So is too damned conspicuous. The tranny who can pass, is a different matter.
What do you mean by "conspicuousness?" I'm not following you.
FlashDangerpants
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Re: Is There Such a Thing as Too Different?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:04 am
henry quirk wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:35 am
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:12 am

I don't know. I think sometimes when we draw lines in the sand we create the grounds for unfairly discriminating against some people. We call them "freaks" or "queer" or "ill" and it harms their careers and their lives. I think there's something at stake here. Transsexuals are still human beings and deserve to be able to live and flourish just like any other human being--as much as possible. I mean, there's no God-given law that says, "thou shalt not change thy gender" that we can be 100% certain of. If someone wants to do that and then teach at a school (and they do a good job), then they can knock themselves out. More power to them.
Well, those are legit concerns, but I ain't involved in any of that.

I only differ from you in askin'' about the conspicuousness of the tranny. The bearded guy in a dress who demands to be be adressed as Miss So & So is too damned conspicuous. The tranny who can pass, is a different matter.
What do you mean by "conspicuousness?" I'm not following you.
Telling gays and trans people and anyone else who lives some sort of alterantive lifestyle to "pass" is what conformists do to rule through shame. They can be tolerated in their perversions and deviance, but only if they aren't brazen with it. Apparently, with the aid of cognitive dissonance, you get to have this model of strict social control but still call yourself a libertarian now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt-sha ... f_cultures
Skepdick
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Re: Is There Such a Thing as Too Different?

Post by Skepdick »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:41 am Telling gays and trans people and anyone else who lives some sort of alterantive lifestyle to "pass" is what conformists do to rule through shame. They can be tolerated in their perversions and deviance, but only if they aren't brazen with it. Apparently, with the aid of cognitive dissonance, you get to have this model of strict social control but still call yourself a libertarian now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt-sha ... f_cultures
Most libertarians only want liberty for themselves.

If the cost of "Liberty For All" requires giving up some of their own liberty, they turn into a rather dictatorial bunch.
FlashDangerpants
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Re: Is There Such a Thing as Too Different?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Skepdick wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:58 am
FlashDangerpants wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:41 am Telling gays and trans people and anyone else who lives some sort of alterantive lifestyle to "pass" is what conformists do to rule through shame. They can be tolerated in their perversions and deviance, but only if they aren't brazen with it. Apparently, with the aid of cognitive dissonance, you get to have this model of strict social control but still call yourself a libertarian now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt-sha ... f_cultures
Most libertarians only want liberty for themselves.

If the cost of "Liberty For All" requires giving up some of their own liberty, they turn into a rather dictatorial bunch.
Indeed. Using shame and stigma to control how other people live their lives instead of force is perhaps nominally libertarian if your lower your standards far enough. But the whole value of actual libertarianism would surely be derived from a pluralist perspective, in which there are more ways than just Henry's or Flash's way to live a good and valuable life. But for that pluralism, you have to accept that other people can make legitimate choices that you would not make for yourself.

Just saying you won't stop doing stuff if they aren't causing harm to others is fine. But if they aren't causing harm to others then why have an opinion on what is their legitimate range of perspectives about themselves? Instead we get bullshit about how they are causing harm to others by going to the toilet.
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henry quirk
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Re: Is There Such a Thing as Too Different?

Post by henry quirk »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:04 am
henry quirk wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:35 am
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:12 am

I don't know. I think sometimes when we draw lines in the sand we create the grounds for unfairly discriminating against some people. We call them "freaks" or "queer" or "ill" and it harms their careers and their lives. I think there's something at stake here. Transsexuals are still human beings and deserve to be able to live and flourish just like any other human being--as much as possible. I mean, there's no God-given law that says, "thou shalt not change thy gender" that we can be 100% certain of. If someone wants to do that and then teach at a school (and they do a good job), then they can knock themselves out. More power to them.
Well, those are legit concerns, but I ain't involved in any of that.

I only differ from you in askin'' about the conspicuousness of the tranny. The bearded guy in a dress who demands to be be adressed as Miss So & So is too damned conspicuous. The tranny who can pass, is a different matter.
What do you mean by "conspicuousness?" I'm not following you.
The bearded guy in a dress is conspicuous; Caroline Cossey is not.
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henry quirk
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Re: Is There Such a Thing as Too Different?

Post by henry quirk »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:41 am
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:04 am
henry quirk wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:35 am

Well, those are legit concerns, but I ain't involved in any of that.

I only differ from you in askin'' about the conspicuousness of the tranny. The bearded guy in a dress who demands to be be adressed as Miss So & So is too damned conspicuous. The tranny who can pass, is a different matter.
What do you mean by "conspicuousness?" I'm not following you.
Telling gays and trans people and anyone else who lives some sort of alterantive lifestyle to "pass" is what conformists do to rule through shame. They can be tolerated in their perversions and deviance, but only if they aren't brazen with it. Apparently, with the aid of cognitive dissonance, you get to have this model of strict social control but still call yourself a libertarian now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt-sha ... f_cultures
Mebbe. More likely, though, what I mean, in context of Gary's thread, is a teacher is supposed to teach, not startle.

A conservative or bland lookin' teacher can teach instead of provoke.
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henry quirk
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Re: Is There Such a Thing as Too Different?

Post by henry quirk »

Skepdick wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:58 am
FlashDangerpants wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:41 am Telling gays and trans people and anyone else who lives some sort of alterantive lifestyle to "pass" is what conformists do to rule through shame. They can be tolerated in their perversions and deviance, but only if they aren't brazen with it. Apparently, with the aid of cognitive dissonance, you get to have this model of strict social control but still call yourself a libertarian now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt-sha ... f_cultures
Most libertarians only want liberty for themselves.

If the cost of "Liberty For All" requires giving up some of their own liberty, they turn into a rather dictatorial bunch.
Libertarianism is a big tent. It even encompasses strains of communism (hell if I know how that works), so yeah, sure, some libertarians are like that.

But, if you actually wanna know about my strain, ask me directly (instead actin' like high schoolers with yer cookie cutter jabs).
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henry quirk
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Re: Is There Such a Thing as Too Different?

Post by henry quirk »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:39 pm
Skepdick wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:58 am
FlashDangerpants wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:41 am Telling gays and trans people and anyone else who lives some sort of alterantive lifestyle to "pass" is what conformists do to rule through shame. They can be tolerated in their perversions and deviance, but only if they aren't brazen with it. Apparently, with the aid of cognitive dissonance, you get to have this model of strict social control but still call yourself a libertarian now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt-sha ... f_cultures
Most libertarians only want liberty for themselves.

If the cost of "Liberty For All" requires giving up some of their own liberty, they turn into a rather dictatorial bunch.
Indeed. Using shame and stigma to control how other people live their lives instead of force is perhaps nominally libertarian if your lower your standards far enough. But the whole value of actual libertarianism would surely be derived from a pluralist perspective, in which there are more ways than just Henry's or Flash's way to live a good and valuable life. But for that pluralism, you have to accept that other people can make legitimate choices that you would not make for yourself.

Just saying you won't stop doing stuff if they aren't causing harm to others is fine. But if they aren't causing harm to others then why have an opinion on what is their legitimate range of perspectives about themselves? Instead we get bullshit about how they are causing harm to others by going to the toilet.
Try harder, aim better.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is There Such a Thing as Too Different?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:46 am What would we be protecting the children from if the teacher is transsexual?
Sexual confusion and misleading...if not through direct propagandization, through dysfunctional role-modelling, at the very least.
Gary Childress
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Re: Is There Such a Thing as Too Different?

Post by Gary Childress »

henry quirk wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:37 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:04 am
henry quirk wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:35 am

Well, those are legit concerns, but I ain't involved in any of that.

I only differ from you in askin'' about the conspicuousness of the tranny. The bearded guy in a dress who demands to be be adressed as Miss So & So is too damned conspicuous. The tranny who can pass, is a different matter.
What do you mean by "conspicuousness?" I'm not following you.
The bearded guy in a dress is conspicuous; Caroline Cossey is not.
Do you mean a bearded guy in a dress can only be faking gender dysphoria? Or, what is the distinction to be made between him and a transsexual who appears more a likeness of their chosen gender?
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henry quirk
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Re: Is There Such a Thing as Too Different?

Post by henry quirk »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:44 pm
henry quirk wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:37 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:04 am

What do you mean by "conspicuousness?" I'm not following you.
The bearded guy in a dress is conspicuous; Caroline Cossey is not.
Do you mean a bearded guy in a dress can only be faking gender dysphoria? Or, what is the distinction to be made between him and a transsexual who appears more a likeness of their chosen gender?
It's not complicated, don't overthink it.

The bearded fella in a dress stands out. Him leadin' the class is nuthin' but distraction.

The pleasant lookin' woman draws the eye but doesn't flummox the head. Him leadin' the class might lead to actual learning.
Gary Childress
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Re: Is There Such a Thing as Too Different?

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:22 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:46 am What would we be protecting the children from if the teacher is transsexual?
Sexual confusion and misleading...if not through direct propagandization, through dysfunctional role-modelling, at the very least.
I don't know. I mean, everything starts out confusing to children; algebra, grammar, etc. But we learned to overcome it. Children learn to adapt quickly and very well to things which adults are less flexible with, learning new languages, for example. The sooner kids are exposed to something new and out of the ordinary the better they learn how to appropriately deal with it. Maybe it's better to expose them early than to never encounter someone like that and end up like us, a bunch of stodgy, narrow-minded, middle-aged men who get all worked up over someone's choice of how they dress or how they refer to themselves.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is There Such a Thing as Too Different?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:13 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:22 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:46 am What would we be protecting the children from if the teacher is transsexual?
Sexual confusion and misleading...if not through direct propagandization, through dysfunctional role-modelling, at the very least.
I don't know. I mean, everything starts out confusing to children; algebra, grammar, etc. But we learned to overcome it.
It's not just the "confusing" bit, Gary. It's the "misleading" bit. Children, as we all know, are highly susceptible to being misled, and trust adults to steer them right. An adult who is manifesting a mental pathology such as gender dysphoria is presenting a spectacle to vulnerable children which they are unequipped to process adequately.

And
The sooner kids are exposed to something new and out of the ordinary the better they learn how to appropriately deal with it.

That's most certainly untrue. There are things that are age-appropriate, and things that are not. There are stages at which the psycho-sexual development of a child raises necessary questions, and also ages at which they are not even neurologically or developmentally equipped to understand those questions. And there are even things that children, if we love them, should NEVER be exposed to, so long as we can possibly help it -- drugs, violence, mental illness, and sexual deviancy among them. We should want them only to encounter those things when both their neurological and mental development is sufficient for them to make correct judgments about them.
Maybe it's better to expose them early than to never encounter someone like that and end up like us, a bunch of stodgy, narrow-minded, middle-aged men who get all worked up over someone's choice of how they dress or how they refer to themselves.
Well, this is how the Left wants us to think about ourselves. Anybody who resists their exploitative gestures is indicted as only doing it because "stodgy, narrow-minded," or worse, because "men." So they want transvestite-reading-hour at the local library, and they want to use this kind of misguided shame to silence all objections.

We don't have to buy into their narrative, though. It's mad.
FlashDangerpants
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Re: Is There Such a Thing as Too Different?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Obviously it all went hoprribly wrong when gays were allowed out into the open with their role-modelling, making unnatural lifestyles look alluring to impressionable children.
Gary Childress
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Re: Is There Such a Thing as Too Different?

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:54 pm It's not just the "confusing" bit, Gary. It's the "misleading" bit. Children, as we all know, are highly susceptible to being misled, and trust adults to steer them right. An adult who is manifesting a mental pathology such as gender dysphoria is presenting a spectacle to vulnerable children which they are unequipped to process adequately.
What evidence is there that children are "unequipped to process adequately" something like that? I've never heard of any studies that have shown that children are harmed in any way by being around a transsexual person or even a gay person.
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