Is There Such a Thing as Too Different?

Anything to do with gender and the status of women and men.

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henry quirk
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Re: Is There Such a Thing as Too Different?

Post by henry quirk »

veg wrote:He's said over and over that they can do, dress as they please. He's just saying that they aren't women, which is true.
Yes, that's what I and others have said, say, over and over, but it's not good enough, obviously.

But, unfortunately, not good enough will have to do. I'll not moved without good cause, and Flash hasn't even offered up a bad cause. Hell, he can't even, as he declares Joe is Josephine, evidence the conviction to acknowledge that he, Flash, in keepin' with his own position, could or would sleep with a transwoman.

A rather pedestrian example of talkin' the talk but not walkin' the walk.

One more time: A man can pretend to be a woman, may actually believe he is a woman, may go to great lengths to emulate the appearance of a woman, but he is not a woman and can never become a woman.
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henry quirk
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Re: Is There Such a Thing as Too Different?

Post by henry quirk »

Gary Childress wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:34 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:20 pm
henry quirk wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:55 pm So you go and bed a guy who sez he's a girl (cuz, heaven forbid you should contradict his own self-assessment) and me, I won't.
... You can perhaps show that I'm a hypocrite who says one thing and does another, but the thing about hypocrites is that they usually say the good thing and do the bad thing. So you kinda need that to go the other way round. Here's an example...
I don't think it's hypocritical for you to be relatively tolerant of transsexuals but not want to have sex with them, if that's what you mean by your statement above.
No, Gary, this is what Flash means...

He'll readily thump me for not acceptin' Joe's self-assessment as woman, but Flash, who claims he does accept Joe's self-assessment wouldn't dream of bangin' Joe...cuz Joe has a cock...cuz Joe is a guy.

Flash's vicious lil circle: I accept Joe as woman, but I won't sleep with him cuz he's a guy.
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Re: Is There Such a Thing as Too Different?

Post by Gary Childress »

henry quirk wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:49 pm
veg wrote:He's said over and over that they can do, dress as they please. He's just saying that they aren't women, which is true.
Yes, that's what I and others have said, say, over and over, but it's not good enough, obviously.

But, unfortunately, not good enough will have to do. I'll not moved without good cause, and Flash hasn't even offered up a bad cause. Hell, he can't even, as he declares Joe is Josephine, evidence the conviction to acknowledge that he, Flash, in keepin' with his own position, could or would sleep with a transwoman.

A rather pedestrian example of talkin' the talk but not walkin' the walk.

One more time: A man can pretend to be a woman, may actually believe he is a woman, may go to great lengths to emulate the appearance of a woman, but he is not a woman and can never become a woman.
Does FDP believe men can become women or does he just believe that a man with gender dysphoria can teach in a school? I thought he just believed the latter of the two. I didn't see where he posted anything about men becoming women.
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henry quirk
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Re: Is There Such a Thing as Too Different?

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the argument cannot support the wanted conclusion

Oh, my argument holds. I just don't think you actually know what my argument is.

If you would, state my argument.

#

it just robs me of personal moral authority.

Does a damn sight more than reveal you as hypocrite. It shows that even as you assert Joe, through Joe's self-defining, is a woman, you still recognize that he's a guy. It reveals your bucket has no bottom.
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henry quirk
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Re: Is There Such a Thing as Too Different?

Post by henry quirk »

Gary Childress wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:58 pm
henry quirk wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:49 pm
veg wrote:He's said over and over that they can do, dress as they please. He's just saying that they aren't women, which is true.
Yes, that's what I and others have said, say, over and over, but it's not good enough, obviously.

But, unfortunately, not good enough will have to do. I'll not moved without good cause, and Flash hasn't even offered up a bad cause. Hell, he can't even, as he declares Joe is Josephine, evidence the conviction to acknowledge that he, Flash, in keepin' with his own position, could or would sleep with a transwoman.

A rather pedestrian example of talkin' the talk but not walkin' the walk.

One more time: A man can pretend to be a woman, may actually believe he is a woman, may go to great lengths to emulate the appearance of a woman, but he is not a woman and can never become a woman.
Does FDP believe men can become women or does he just believe that a man with gender dysphoria can teach in a school? I thought he just believed the latter of the two. I didn't see where he posted anything about men becoming women.
As I understand it: Flash sez I can't be privy to Joe's sense of self so I can't or shouldn't dismiss Joe's claim he's actually Josephine, and certainly I shouldn't challenge Joe's self-definition cuz of sumthin' as trivial as genetics or the fact Joe was born with a penis.

Have I got it right, Flash?
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Re: Is There Such a Thing as Too Different?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Gary Childress wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:14 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:02 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:34 pm

I don't think it's hypocritical for you to be relatively tolerant of transsexuals but not want to have sex with them, if that's what you mean by your statement above.
Maybe, but that doesn't really matter to me. My point was that the argument cannot support the wanted conclusion, so whether I answer in the way I am being led, or just go the other way, it's moot.

If I say the right thing, but do the wrong thing, that makes me a bad man, but it doesn't stop the thing I said being right, it just robs me of personal moral authority.
I agree with the logical aspect. But is it "wrong" to not want to have sex with a transsexual? It seems to me that there is no moral obligation to have sex with someone. You can still be relatively tolerant toward someone but not entertain all their desires. Therefore why even say, "you can perhaps show that I"m a hypocrite", if you're not being hypocritical?
On the one hand, everybody has their type. Big boobies for some, tight tushies for others. That shit's not a rational choice so why apply right and wrong so long as it's all consenting adults? It's probably never wrong not to want to have sex with somebody.

Henry was after me for a more specific sin though. He posits that after getting some sort of situation, and being all hot and horny, I would then discover to my horror that the person on the end of my bell end is none other than some form of not-entirely-woman and my innate prejudice would show I don't believe in sex changey stuff after all. And he's probably right, I don't know, it seems like it would take a lot of effort to find out. Same as he doesn't really know how he would react, his imagination tells him he would definitely go apeshit, but who really knows how they will behave when there is somebody else's hand down their trouser? I've heard stories, and fewer of them end that way than you would think, but none was told sober.

But it doesn't matter. If I witness the she-dick and run away, that's not the same as me suddenly presenting an argument that biologoy is the totality of gender, it's just me being a he-dick. I don't in that act prove in any way that all the other people who say gender is at least partially a social construct are wrong, I just look silly.
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Re: Is There Such a Thing as Too Different?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

henry quirk wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:55 pm No, you've offered up the same drivel as always, there's so many ways to look a gender.
henry quirk wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:33 pm If a man can be a woman through self-declaration only (and that's your claim)
If you want to try and put me on the spot you need to pick one.
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Re: Is There Such a Thing as Too Different?

Post by Gary Childress »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:13 am
Gary Childress wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:14 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:02 pm
Maybe, but that doesn't really matter to me. My point was that the argument cannot support the wanted conclusion, so whether I answer in the way I am being led, or just go the other way, it's moot.

If I say the right thing, but do the wrong thing, that makes me a bad man, but it doesn't stop the thing I said being right, it just robs me of personal moral authority.
I agree with the logical aspect. But is it "wrong" to not want to have sex with a transsexual? It seems to me that there is no moral obligation to have sex with someone. You can still be relatively tolerant toward someone but not entertain all their desires. Therefore why even say, "you can perhaps show that I"m a hypocrite", if you're not being hypocritical?
On the one hand, everybody has their type. Big boobies for some, tight tushies for others. That shit's not a rational choice so why apply right and wrong so long as it's all consenting adults? It's probably never wrong not to want to have sex with somebody.

Henry was after me for a more specific sin though. He posits that after getting some sort of situation, and being all hot and horny, I would then discover to my horror that the person on the end of my bell end is none other than some form of not-entirely-woman and my innate prejudice would show I don't believe in sex changey stuff after all. And he's probably right, I don't know, it seems like it would take a lot of effort to find out. Same as he doesn't really know how he would react, his imagination tells him he would definitely go apeshit, but who really knows how they will behave when there is somebody else's hand down their trouser? I've heard stories, and fewer of them end that way than you would think, but none was told sober.

But it doesn't matter. If I witness the she-dick and run away, that's not the same as me suddenly presenting an argument that biologoy is the totality of gender, it's just me being a he-dick. I don't in that act prove in any way that all the other people who say gender is at least partially a social construct are wrong, I just look silly.
It's definitely tricky territory. In some ways it reminds me of the book "Flatland" only with us hicks being the flatlanders and the intelligentsia being spheres who defy our comprehension. :(
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henry quirk
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Re: Is There Such a Thing as Too Different?

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Flash wrote:he's probably right
Thank you.

'nuff said.
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Re: Is There Such a Thing as Too Different?

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FlashDangerpants wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:17 am
henry quirk wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:55 pm No, you've offered up the same drivel as always, there's so many ways to look a gender.
henry quirk wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:33 pm If a man can be a woman through self-declaration only (and that's your claim)
If you want to try and put me on the spot you need to pick one.
Rephrased for clarity...

You've offered up the same drivel as always, that being there's so many ways to look a gender so mebbe Joe really is Josephine simply by declaring it.

A man can be a woman by simply declaring he is she (that's your claim, yeah?).

Oh, gender is so slippery, so nebulous, we can't agree on what it is, so who's to say Joe isn't a woman if he insists he is?

Such crap.
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Re: Is There Such a Thing as Too Different?

Post by henry quirk »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:21 am
FlashDangerpants wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:13 am
Gary Childress wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:14 pm

I agree with the logical aspect. But is it "wrong" to not want to have sex with a transsexual? It seems to me that there is no moral obligation to have sex with someone. You can still be relatively tolerant toward someone but not entertain all their desires. Therefore why even say, "you can perhaps show that I"m a hypocrite", if you're not being hypocritical?
On the one hand, everybody has their type. Big boobies for some, tight tushies for others. That shit's not a rational choice so why apply right and wrong so long as it's all consenting adults? It's probably never wrong not to want to have sex with somebody.

Henry was after me for a more specific sin though. He posits that after getting some sort of situation, and being all hot and horny, I would then discover to my horror that the person on the end of my bell end is none other than some form of not-entirely-woman and my innate prejudice would show I don't believe in sex changey stuff after all. And he's probably right, I don't know, it seems like it would take a lot of effort to find out. Same as he doesn't really know how he would react, his imagination tells him he would definitely go apeshit, but who really knows how they will behave when there is somebody else's hand down their trouser? I've heard stories, and fewer of them end that way than you would think, but none was told sober.

But it doesn't matter. If I witness the she-dick and run away, that's not the same as me suddenly presenting an argument that biologoy is the totality of gender, it's just me being a he-dick. I don't in that act prove in any way that all the other people who say gender is at least partially a social construct are wrong, I just look silly.
It's definitely tricky territory. In some ways it reminds me of the book "Flatland" only with us hicks being the flatlanders and the intelligentsia being spheres who defy our comprehension. :(
No, it's really not.
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Re: Is There Such a Thing as Too Different?

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Gary Childress wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:53 pm
henry quirk wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:46 pm "What defines "Illness" and "health" in a species is a tricky thing sometimes, I think. Some deviation could be healthy or necessary for a species and some may not. I mean, maybe we are a species which has developed the trait of having diverse feelings about gender. Many other species that engage in sexual reproduction seem to just cut it right down the middle, sperm on one side and egg on the other. I don't know."

I hear ya, wish I could sympathize.
Meh. I guess we all do our best with how we understand the world. You're OK in my book, Henry.
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Re: Is There Such a Thing as Too Different?

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Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:11 am
Gary Childress wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:42 pm I don't know if it is true of the teacher in question, however, if a transgender teacher is exceptionally good at teaching, then wouldn't it be a tragedy to keep him/her away from a profession that always has a demand for talented teachers?
It's a tragedy whenever somebody is struggling with gender dysphoria, it's true. And there's no reason such a person could not serve the world in many ways...say, as a code breaker, like Alan Turing.

But any good teacher knows that the education system does not exist to give teachers jobs...it exists for the care and nurture of children. So the 'right' of anyone to teach is circumscribed by our obligation to protect and serve students.
What would we be protecting the children from if the teacher is transsexual?
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Re: Is There Such a Thing as Too Different?

Post by Gary Childress »

henry quirk wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:45 am
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:21 am
FlashDangerpants wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:13 am
On the one hand, everybody has their type. Big boobies for some, tight tushies for others. That shit's not a rational choice so why apply right and wrong so long as it's all consenting adults? It's probably never wrong not to want to have sex with somebody.

Henry was after me for a more specific sin though. He posits that after getting some sort of situation, and being all hot and horny, I would then discover to my horror that the person on the end of my bell end is none other than some form of not-entirely-woman and my innate prejudice would show I don't believe in sex changey stuff after all. And he's probably right, I don't know, it seems like it would take a lot of effort to find out. Same as he doesn't really know how he would react, his imagination tells him he would definitely go apeshit, but who really knows how they will behave when there is somebody else's hand down their trouser? I've heard stories, and fewer of them end that way than you would think, but none was told sober.

But it doesn't matter. If I witness the she-dick and run away, that's not the same as me suddenly presenting an argument that biologoy is the totality of gender, it's just me being a he-dick. I don't in that act prove in any way that all the other people who say gender is at least partially a social construct are wrong, I just look silly.
It's definitely tricky territory. In some ways it reminds me of the book "Flatland" only with us hicks being the flatlanders and the intelligentsia being spheres who defy our comprehension. :(
No, it's really not.
I don't know. I think sometimes when we draw lines in the sand we create the grounds for unfairly discriminating against some people. We call them "freaks" or "queer" or "ill" and it harms their careers and their lives. I think there's something at stake here. Transsexuals are still human beings and deserve to be able to live and flourish just like any other human being--as much as possible. I mean, there's no God-given law that says, "thou shalt not change thy gender" that we can be 100% certain of. If someone wants to do that and then teach at a school (and they do a good job), then they can knock themselves out. More power to them.
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Re: Is There Such a Thing as Too Different?

Post by henry quirk »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:12 am
henry quirk wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:45 am
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:21 am

It's definitely tricky territory. In some ways it reminds me of the book "Flatland" only with us hicks being the flatlanders and the intelligentsia being spheres who defy our comprehension. :(
No, it's really not.
I don't know. I think sometimes when we draw lines in the sand we create the grounds for unfairly discriminating against some people. We call them "freaks" or "queer" or "ill" and it harms their careers and their lives. I think there's something at stake here. Transsexuals are still human beings and deserve to be able to live and flourish just like any other human being--as much as possible. I mean, there's no God-given law that says, "thou shalt not change thy gender" that we can be 100% certain of. If someone wants to do that and then teach at a school (and they do a good job), then they can knock themselves out. More power to them.
Well, those are legit concerns, but I ain't involved in any of that.

I only differ from you in askin'' about the conspicuousness of the tranny. The bearded guy in a dress who demands to be be adressed as Miss So & So is too damned conspicuous. The tranny who can pass, is a different matter.
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