A ROLE MODEL FOR WOMEN

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RCSaunders
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Re: A ROLE MODEL FOR WOMEN

Post by RCSaunders » Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:33 pm

Belinda wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:19 pm
It seems very likely that you were reared by humans not monkeys or wolves. it is from these humans who reared you that you learned to be a socialised human being. These particular humans who reared you , whoever they are , are 'role models'. I guess you must be using the term 'role models' in some way that I am not familiar with.
I am not a, "socialized," human being. It wouldn't matter what my parents were, drugged out thieves, communist agitators, religious nuts, or, the lowest of human beings, social workers, or any other kind of high or low life. What I am is what I have chosen to be based on the requirements of human nature. I know families where every child is a totally different kind of person, all with the same, "role models," none of them anything like their "role models." There is only one example of, "role model," I might acknowledge, which is, if any other human being is a role model, they are all examples of exactly what I have chosen not to be.

These ideas that people are whatever their society, or role models, or heredity, or economic status, or any other thing made them is just an excuse for evading the fact that what you are is what you have chosen to be. It's an evasion of responsibility to learn how to live and be successful, an excuse to be a failure at life--after all, it's not your fault, your role models, or society, or heredity, or the devil made you do it.

Nick_A
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Re: A ROLE MODEL FOR WOMEN

Post by Nick_A » Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:47 pm

RCSaunders wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:24 pm
Nick_A wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:23 am
Pursuit of the love of wisdom is not the same as striving to enjoy life.
That is the crux of our difference. I do not know what you have chosen to live for, but I have chosen to live as the best human being I can be and to enjoy that life (which are really the same thing). The ultimate alternative all human beings face is to live to enjoy one's life, achieving and being all one can be, or to suffer and die.

The whole purpose of wisdom is to know how to live successfully in this world and to enjoy it.

Others may choose some lesser purpose, if they like, but if they do, it is to be something less than a human can be, something dull and pointless and of no value at all.
You are describing psychology concerned with life in Plato's cave. There nothing wrong with this. Most are that way. They want to feel fulfilled in Plato's cave. Often they are responsible citizens.

Philosophy has the goal of wisdom or freedom from the confines of Plato's cave and the experience of objective human meaning and purpose as opposed to indoctrinated meaning and purpose imposed by cave life.

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Re: A ROLE MODEL FOR WOMEN

Post by RCSaunders » Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:43 am

Nick_A wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:47 pm
You are describing psychology concerned with life in Plato's cave. There nothing wrong with this. Most are that way. They want to feel fulfilled in Plato's cave. Often they are responsible citizens.

Philosophy has the goal of wisdom or freedom from the confines of Plato's cave and the experience of objective human meaning and purpose as opposed to indoctrinated meaning and purpose imposed by cave life.
It must be a terrible thing to live in a world one does not know is real, where everything is some kind of illusion that could vanish or change at any minute. It is the kind of world those suffering from delirium tremens experience.

It is sad when one suffers such delusions because of the defects of their own mind, but it is a complete tragedy when someone makes another's delusions, like Plato's, their own.

The world we live in and experience every day is the real world exactly as it appears to be, just as it is seen, heard, felt, smelled and tasted. It is the only source of all direct consciousness and there is nothing about it that is in doubt, except to those who despise real knowledge, like the sophists and mystics that hate reality and dream of a world they imagine in their own demented minds.

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Re: A ROLE MODEL FOR WOMEN

Post by Nick_A » Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:44 am

RCSaunders wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:43 am
Nick_A wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:47 pm
You are describing psychology concerned with life in Plato's cave. There nothing wrong with this. Most are that way. They want to feel fulfilled in Plato's cave. Often they are responsible citizens.

Philosophy has the goal of wisdom or freedom from the confines of Plato's cave and the experience of objective human meaning and purpose as opposed to indoctrinated meaning and purpose imposed by cave life.
It must be a terrible thing to live in a world one does not know is real, where everything is some kind of illusion that could vanish or change at any minute. It is the kind of world those suffering from delirium tremens experience.

It is sad when one suffers such delusions because of the defects of their own mind, but it is a complete tragedy when someone makes another's delusions, like Plato's, their own.

The world we live in and experience every day is the real world exactly as it appears to be, just as it is seen, heard, felt, smelled and tasted. It is the only source of all direct consciousness and there is nothing about it that is in doubt, except to those who despise real knowledge, like the sophists and mystics that hate reality and dream of a world they imagine in their own demented minds.
You are describing a common secular delusion. Obviously supporting its dominance which makes the acceptance of cave life possible requires the hatred of the great ideas and all efforts to keep them alive in the world.

The world is real: our interpretations are not. Dominant secular influences require denying the ability to objectively experience the external world. Victims of indoctrination defending it as reality have in a large part become unable to distinguish the two and open to the essential first steps towards awakening to the objective reality of what we are.

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Re: A ROLE MODEL FOR WOMEN

Post by Skepdick » Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:25 am

RCSaunders wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:43 am
It must be a terrible thing to live in a world one does not know is real, where everything is some kind of illusion that could vanish or change at any minute.
But the world we live in is changing. All the time. This planet could vanish at any moment - if hit by an asteroid. You could die any moment - and everything would vanish.

Does that make reality an illusion? Or is death the end of the illusion that is life?
RCSaunders wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:43 am
The world we live in and experience every day is the real world exactly as it appears to be, just as it is seen, heard, felt, smelled and tasted. It is the only source of all direct consciousness and there is nothing about it that is in doubt, except to those who despise real knowledge, like the sophists and mystics that hate reality and dream of a world they imagine in their own demented minds.
It doesn't matter whether you assign the label "real" or "illusionary" to the world if the experience of an illusionary world is identical to the experience of a real world. If you can't detect a difference - there is no difference. You could be living in The Matrix for all you know.

The distinction between "real" and "illusionary" is only in your attitude towards the world, not in your experience of the world.

Why is a "real" attitude towards the world better than an "illusionary" attitude towards the world?

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Re: A ROLE MODEL FOR WOMEN

Post by Belinda » Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:37 am

RCSaunders wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:33 pm
Belinda wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:19 pm
It seems very likely that you were reared by humans not monkeys or wolves. it is from these humans who reared you that you learned to be a socialised human being. These particular humans who reared you , whoever they are , are 'role models'. I guess you must be using the term 'role models' in some way that I am not familiar with.
I am not a, "socialized," human being. It wouldn't matter what my parents were, drugged out thieves, communist agitators, religious nuts, or, the lowest of human beings, social workers, or any other kind of high or low life. What I am is what I have chosen to be based on the requirements of human nature. I know families where every child is a totally different kind of person, all with the same, "role models," none of them anything like their "role models." There is only one example of, "role model," I might acknowledge, which is, if any other human being is a role model, they are all examples of exactly what I have chosen not to be.

These ideas that people are whatever their society, or role models, or heredity, or economic status, or any other thing made them is just an excuse for evading the fact that what you are is what you have chosen to be. It's an evasion of responsibility to learn how to live and be successful, an excuse to be a failure at life--after all, it's not your fault, your role models, or society, or heredity, or the devil made you do it.
Then I gather that you believe in Free Will.That's to say I gather that you believe that you yourself originate your intentions and choices and are not in the slightest influenced by others or indeed by anything other than your Free Will.

Incidentally I wonder if you are American bred. I ask because Americans feel independence of the individual, individualism, is very important, more so than do other ethic groups. Hence we have the exaggerated fears of such as McCarthy, and the admiration some Americans have for Trump, gun ownership, and institutionalised Protestantism in huge churches.

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Re: A ROLE MODEL FOR WOMEN

Post by RCSaunders » Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:18 pm

Nick_A wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:44 am
The world is real: our interpretations are not.
Who does, "our," refer to. Do you belong to some kind of committee that decides such things. Whatever it is, I'm not a member.
Nick_A wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:44 am
Dominant secular influences require denying the ability to objectively experience the external world.
What "external world?" If it is not the world I can see, hear, feel, smell, or taste, what is it? I know the world I am directly conscious of, I'm not about to believe in some mystic world that I can only know by taking your word for it. Every con artist in the world uses the same method. They have secret knowledge and only they can tell you what it is. Sure!
Nick_A wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:44 am
Victims of indoctrination ...
Believing my own eyes is, "indoctrination," but believing the rantings of some mystic guru from a third world hell hole is, "enlightenment." I see.

Nick, I have no interest in changing your mind about what you think, and you are never going to convince me I should accept what you believe against the evidence of my own experience. I don't mind discussing these things, but you have to understand I have no respect for any kind mysticism.

Skepdick
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Re: A ROLE MODEL FOR WOMEN

Post by Skepdick » Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:57 pm

RCSaunders wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:18 pm
Who does, "our," refer to.
All human beings.
RCSaunders wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:18 pm
Do you belong to some kind of committee that decides such things.
The limits imposed on you by the human condition decide such things.
RCSaunders wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:18 pm
Whatever it is, I'm not a member.
So you are saying that your interpretation of reality is the correct one?
RCSaunders wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:18 pm
What "external world?" If it is not the world I can see, hear, feel, smell, or taste, what is it? I know the world I am directly conscious of, I'm not about to believe in some mystic world that I can only know by taking your word for it.
Can you trust your senses? If you answer "yes" - then how do you explain optical illusions and cognitive biases?
RCSaunders wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:18 pm
Every con artist in the world uses the same method. They have secret knowledge and only they can tell you what it is. Sure!
Well, you claimed to not be a member, so perhaps your interpretations are secretly better than ours?

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Re: A ROLE MODEL FOR WOMEN

Post by RCSaunders » Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:45 pm

Belinda wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:37 am
Then I gather that you believe in Free Will.
I never use the loaded term, "free will." No description of it is true. There is an unstated assumption that somehow, "free will," means being able to choose just anything, which is obviously untrue. One cannot choose to do what is physically impossible, one cannot choose to do what they do not themselves have the ability to do. All choice requires knowledge and one cannot choose to do what they do not have the knowledge required to do. One cannot just choose to be a doctor or physicist. One can choose to study and learn what is required to do something if, and only if, they have the intellectual ability to learn what is required.

Within the limits of reality, however, human beings not only can consciously choose what they think and do, but must choose what they think and do, or they will do nothing. Except for those biological functions, reflexes, and the behavior of the autonomic nervous system, everything a human being is conscious of doing, they have chosen to do. The correct term for that is not, "free will," but, "volition."
Belinda wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:37 am
... I gather that you believe that you yourself originate your intentions and choices and are not in the slightest influenced by others or indeed by anything other than your Free Will.
I'm not sure what you mean by, "influence." I've already described the realistic limits of volition. One cannot choose to speak in a language they do not know and cannot choose a kind of food or music or dress they do not know exists or have not yet thought up for themselves. Volition does not mean being able to choose anything, it means that whatever one does do must be chosen, but can only be chosen from what it is possible to choose.

Perhaps this will explain what I mean. Of course we all have some kind of specific background that is the source of all we learn and know, including all we learn from others, the kinds of cultural things we are aware of and have experienced, and you can call all those thing, "influence," if you like. In that case, "influence," only provides the pool of options available for one to choose from, but influence does not determine what one chooses.
Belinda wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:37 am
Incidentally I wonder if you are American bred.
I do not quite understand the view that human beings are, "bred," like cattle or horses, but I'll risk assuming you only mean were my views influenced by American, "culture." My first language is English and I'm familiar with American history and literature and grew up in a cosmopolitan industrial city with no dominant racial or cultural population. Except that those experiences provided opportunity to learn a great deal, they were otherwise unimportant.

I do not belong to any organization or party, have no use for or interest in any form of politics (except to know that all forms of government are evil and oppressive), and I do not subscribe to any religion or form of superstition. I do not hold with any "-ism." Those with any of the views you have subscribed to, "Americans," would despise me. I regard and enjoy all human beings only as individuals and never on the basis of any collective classification (especially not race or national origin).

I've enjoyed every kind of music, except rap, but my preference is classical. My dress is what you might call Western (as opposed to Middle Eastern or Oriental) casual, today, (I'm retired), but dressed as a business man for many years). (I would prefer to wear a sarong and flip flops if they were available. I love hot weather and the tropics.) My diet is eclectic, American, Mexican, South American, Asian, especially Thai, Vietnamese, Indonesian, and Chinese (but not Japanese), French, Italian, Greek, (but not German), the choices are simply based on what I like and enjoy cooking. I read everything, and voraciously.

How you see any of that, you must decide. Everything I have done and everything I do I have consciously chosen to do and gladly bear the responsibility for those choices. I regard the denial of human volition an evasion of personal responsibility.

Now, perhaps you will be willing to tell me a little about yourself and how you came to your views.
[/quote]

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Re: A ROLE MODEL FOR WOMEN

Post by RCSaunders » Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:11 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:57 pm
So you are saying that your interpretation of reality is the correct one?
Duh!
Skepdick wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:57 pm
Can you trust your senses?
If the choice is, "trust my senses," or, "trust you," what do you think?
Skepdick wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:57 pm
... then how do you explain optical illusions and cognitive biases?
Do you have those? Perhaps that explains your views. I have neither.
Skepdick wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:57 pm
... perhaps your interpretations are secretly better than ours?
They are no secret!

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Re: A ROLE MODEL FOR WOMEN

Post by Skepdick » Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:27 pm

RCSaunders wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:11 pm
If the choice is, "trust my senses," or, "trust you," what do you think?
Are those the only choices?

What about developing feedback mechanisms and mental discipline so as to detect/overcome your own cognitive biases?
RCSaunders wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:11 pm
Skepdick wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:57 pm
... then how do you explain optical illusions and cognitive biases?
Do you have those? Perhaps that explains your views. I have neither.
Obviously I do. I am human - every human has them.

You seem to be claiming that you don't, so it begs the question: What would convince you that you are wrong?
RCSaunders wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:11 pm
They are no secret!
OK. But how did you assert that they are better? What other interpretations did you consider before settling on this particular one?

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Re: A ROLE MODEL FOR WOMEN

Post by RCSaunders » Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:56 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:27 pm
Obviously I do. I am human - every human has them.
This is your problem, Skepdick. You assume everyone is like you. They're not. Everyone is different.

I'll take your word for it that you have illusions and biases, and since you cannot possibly know another's mind, you'll have to take my word for it I have neither.

Of course you don't have to take my word for it, you can stamp you foot and refuse to be reasonable, like a spoiled child.

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Re: A ROLE MODEL FOR WOMEN

Post by Skepdick » Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:59 pm

RCSaunders wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:56 pm
This is your problem, Skepdick. You assume everyone is like you. They're not. Everyone is different.
You got that wrong. Statistically - I am like most humans. We have different biases, indeed. But we all have biases.
RCSaunders wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:56 pm
I'll take your word for it that you have illusions and biases, and since you cannot possibly know another's mind, you'll have to take my word for it I have neither.
Don't take my word for it. There's plenty of science on the topic.

I would take statistically significant empirical evidence over your anecdotal claims any day.
RCSaunders wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:11 pm
Of course you don't have to take my word for it, you can stamp you foot and refuse to be reasonable, like a spoiled child.
RCSaunders wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:18 pm
Every con artist in the world uses the same method. They have secret knowledge and only they can tell you what it is. Sure!
RCSaunders wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:11 pm
If the choice is, "trust my senses," or, "trust you," what do you think?
You are starting to sound like a con artist ;)

The rejection of your humanity gave it away.

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Re: A ROLE MODEL FOR WOMEN

Post by RCSaunders » Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:08 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:59 pm
Statistically - I am like most humans. We have different biases, indeed. But we all have biases.

The rejection of your humanity gave it away.
If you are a sample of what a "human" is, I am definitely not one of those.

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Re: A ROLE MODEL FOR WOMEN

Post by Skepdick » Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:44 pm

RCSaunders wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:08 pm
If you are a sample of what a "human" is, I am definitely not one of those.
If you aren't human then what are you?

It seems you are at least 50 years old. It seems a wee bit late to try to differentiate and define yourself? Late bloomer, maybe.

I'll go grab some popcorn while I watch your "individualist non-human" ship burn in the harbour.

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