A ROLE MODEL FOR WOMEN

Anything to do with gender and the status of women and men.

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Sculptor
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Re: A ROLE MODEL FOR WOMEN

Post by Sculptor » Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:42 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:44 pm
RCSaunders wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:08 pm
If you are a sample of what a "human" is, I am definitely not one of those.
If you aren't human then what are you?
It think you've missed the point as you often do.
Next you'll be telling him that a Human is an equestrian quadruped with a spiral horn

Nick_A
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Re: A ROLE MODEL FOR WOMEN

Post by Nick_A » Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:25 pm

RCSaunders

Nick_A wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:44 am
The world is real: our interpretations are not.

Who does, "our," refer to. Do you belong to some kind of committee that decides such things. Whatever it is, I'm not a member.
“Our” refers to humanity in general acting in accordance with the fallen human condition.. Common sense should tell you that war is the result of differing interpretations of reality. You have not yet experienced that you rarely experience reality; you interpret it. Yes you are a member of the self deception club. You have yet to verify it.
Believing my own eyes is, "indoctrination," but believing the rantings of some mystic guru from a third world hell hole is, "enlightenment." I see.

Nick, I have no interest in changing your mind about what you think, and you are never going to convince me I should accept what you believe against the evidence of my own experience. I don't mind discussing these things, but you have to understand I have no respect for any kind mysticism.
You seem to be limiting yourself to either blind belief or blind denial. How about striving to maintain an open mind?. You may have respect for mysticism which includes revelation and intuition. You seem to deny the potential for experience which transcends those offered by the senses. Yet those like Einstein maintain that it is only through such experiences that Man can experience its potential.
1930
"Many people think that the progress of the human race is based on experiences of an empirical, critical nature, but I say that true knowledge is to be had only through a philosophy of deduction. For it is intuition that improves the world, not just following the trodden path of thought. Intuition makes us look at unrelated facts and then think about them until they can all be brought under one law. To look for related facts means holding onto what one has instead of searching for new facts. Intuition is the father of new knowledge, while empiricism is nothing but an accumulation of old knowledge. Intuition, not intellect, is the ‘open sesame’ of yourself." -- Albert Einstein, in Einstein and the Poet – In Search of the Cosmic Man by William Hermanns (Branden Press, 1983, p. 16.), conversation March 4, 1930
I don't try to change anyone's mind. I am interested in revealing the contradiction between what we say and what we do. I appreciate discussing this question with the minority willing to join me in admitting it and if there is a way to acquire a degree of inner unity which would make us more human as opposed to hypocrites living in self deception. You may say one thing and do another, If you can describe why it is so it helps me to better understand the human condition.

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RCSaunders
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Re: A ROLE MODEL FOR WOMEN

Post by RCSaunders » Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:27 am

Nick_A wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:25 pm
I am interested in revealing the contradiction between what we say and what we do.
That may be a problem for you, but it is not for me. First of all, because I am not a part of any, "we," you belong to.

Secondly, I could not possibly bring myself to defy the principles of reality I know one must live by to live successfully and happily in this world. In case you wonder what those principles are, here are some of them.

No one can do wrong and get away with it.
It is wrong to seek to have or enjoy anything one has not earned or acquired by their own effort (productive work).
It is wrong to fake reality in any way and the consequences of all lies and deceit are to one's own mind and consciousness.
It is wrong not to learn all one can about as many things as one can.
It is wrong not to think as well as one can about every belief and choice.
It is wrong to evade, in any way, one's responsibility for one's own life and actions.
It is wrong to interfere, in any way, in another's life and choices.
It is wrong to attempt to influence another in any way, from force to persuasion, for one's own gain at another's expense. (It is wrong to steal.)
It is wrong not to achieve all one can and to be the best human being one can in all things.
It is wrong to believe there are any shortcuts to knowledge, success, or achievement. There is no magic source of knowledge (like revelation), no secret method of success, (like prayer, or meditation, or incantations), and no way to achievement except hard work.

There is no forgiveness for any wrong and one of the worse evils is to believe one can be forgiven for doing wrong, or convincing others they can be forgiven. Reality never forgives. The penalties for defying reality cannot be evaded.

Those are some of the principles I live by. There is no contradiction between the principles I espouse and the way I live my life. They are not laws. No government or God is required to enforce them. They are true because reality is what it is and has a specific nature, and human beings have a specific nature and violating any of these principles is a defiance of reality, which cannot be defied without disastrous consequences.
Nick_A wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:25 pm
...there is a way to unity ... which would make us more human ...
Perhaps there is, but, certainly, going around accusing everyone of hypocrisy is not that way.

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Re: A ROLE MODEL FOR WOMEN

Post by Nick_A » Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:09 am

RCSaunders

Tolstoy describes how easily hypocrisy is justified through self deception.
“Hypocrisy in anything whatever may deceive the cleverest and most penetrating man, but the least wide-awake of children recognizes it, and is revolted by it, however ingeniously it may be disguised.”― Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina
Simone Weil describes hypocrisy from a philosophical perspective.
contradictions which are always the terminus of human thought when it moves exclusively in this world.
St. Paul offers the religious perspective.
Romans 7
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
You seem to have transcended the state of contradiction which defines the human condition. If you have done so you and have become inner unity. You are a better man than I and the three I have mentioned

Skepdick
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Re: A ROLE MODEL FOR WOMEN

Post by Skepdick » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:16 am

Sculptor wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:42 pm
It think you've missed the point as you often do.
Next you'll be telling him that a Human is an equestrian quadruped with a spiral horn
Would you like some more hay?

Belinda
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Re: A ROLE MODEL FOR WOMEN

Post by Belinda » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:48 am

RCSaunders wrote:
Now, perhaps you will be willing to tell me a little about yourself and how you came to your views
I am an old Scottish woman whose parents were liberal Protestants of the sceptical sort. I went to Scottish schools where my childhood friends were from similar intellectual backgrounds. We were taught to think for ourselves. Later, university teachers taught me how I was influenced by the cultural ambience.

I came to learn from childhood and later influences that what I look like or what others look like is superficial .During the war I met others from foreign countries and foreign religions.

I challenged your apparent belief that you yourself , with no reference to parents, schools, or peers, originate your own ideas .
I suggested that Americans were biased towards self-origination because of the American liking for individualism.

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Sculptor
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Re: A ROLE MODEL FOR WOMEN

Post by Sculptor » Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:21 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:16 am
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:42 pm
It think you've missed the point as you often do.
Next you'll be telling him that a Human is an equestrian quadruped with a spiral horn
Would you like some more hay?
I don't need it since my horn is magical and I absorb fairy dust for sustenance.

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RCSaunders
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Re: A ROLE MODEL FOR WOMEN

Post by RCSaunders » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:19 pm

Nick_A wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:09 am
RCSaunders

Tolstoy describes how easily hypocrisy is justified through self deception.
“Hypocrisy in anything whatever may deceive the cleverest and most penetrating man, but the least wide-awake of children recognizes it, and is revolted by it, however ingeniously it may be disguised.”― Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina
Simone Weil describes hypocrisy from a philosophical perspective.
contradictions which are always the terminus of human thought when it moves exclusively in this world.
St. Paul offers the religious perspective.
Romans 7
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
You seem to have transcended the state of contradiction which defines the human condition. If you have done so you and have become inner unity. You are a better man than I and the three I have mentioned
I have not transcended anything. I regard my views and my life as nothing more than being what a human being must be to live successfully as a human being. Any other kind of life would be something less than truly human, and is, unfortunately, what most people choose. There is no superiority in how I live, there is only loss to those who choose to live otherwise.

Someone once told me about some individual who supposedly had very high values and standards, but I knew how that individual lived, which was a complete contradiction of what he claimed to believe. If I want to know what anyone truly believes and values I watch what they do and ignore what they say. You are right that most people's lives are a contradiction of what they say they believe and value, but it is not a contradiction of what they truly believe and value, because it is what they truly believe and value that they base their choices on.

If one finds that their behavior does not conform to what they believe, they have deceived themselves about what they truly believe. One's behavior is determined by what one truly believes, not what they think they believe or would like to believe. Very often that kind of conflict is the result of a belief that one can do wrong and get away with it. They believe something is wrong, but have a desire to do it, but would not do it if they knew the consequences of doing wrong could not be evaded. You hear it expressed, "I know it's wrong, but I'm just to weak to resist the temptation," which spoken or unspoken is followed by the belief, "I'll be forgiven for it anyway," which, of course is a lie.

There is nothing more self-harmful than doing what one knows is wrong. Doing right is not something noble, it is the most practical thing in the world, no matter what the cost or how difficult it is, because the alternative is the loss of all that is worth living for.

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Re: A ROLE MODEL FOR WOMEN

Post by Arising_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:31 pm

RCSaunders wrote:
No one can do wrong and get away with it. ...
How so?
It is wrong to seek to have or enjoy anything one has not earned or acquired by their own effort (productive work)
So no prezzies then?
.
It is wrong to fake reality in any way and the consequences of all lies and deceit are to one's own mind and consciousness. ...
What does 'faking reality' involve?
It is wrong not to learn all one can about as many things as one can.
Why?
It is wrong not to think as well as one can about every belief and choice.
Got any techniques?
It is wrong to evade, in any way, one's responsibility for one's own life and actions.
Agee but got any leeway for the depressed?
It is wrong to interfere, in any way, in another's life and choices.
Peadophiles, rapists, wife and childbeaters, etc, etc?
It is wrong to attempt to influence another in any way, from force to persuasion, for one's own gain at another's expense. (It is wrong to steal.)
Does that include helping others because one gains a sense of self satisfaction?
It is wrong not to achieve all one can and to be the best human being one can in all things
Agee, what happens if one thinks being a human being is to be top dog?
It is wrong to believe there are any shortcuts to knowledge, success, or achievement. There is no magic source of knowledge (like revelation), no secret method of success, (like prayer, or meditation, or incantations), and no way to achievement except hard work....
Money helps a shit load.
There is no forgiveness for any wrong and one of the worse evils is to believe one can be forgiven for doing wrong, or convincing others they can be forgiven ...
Surely that's up to the done wronged by to decide?
. Reality never forgives. The penalties for defying reality cannot be evaded.
Such as?

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Re: A ROLE MODEL FOR WOMEN

Post by Nick_A » Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:39 am

RCSaunders wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:19 pm
Nick_A wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:09 am
RCSaunders

Tolstoy describes how easily hypocrisy is justified through self deception.
“Hypocrisy in anything whatever may deceive the cleverest and most penetrating man, but the least wide-awake of children recognizes it, and is revolted by it, however ingeniously it may be disguised.”― Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina
Simone Weil describes hypocrisy from a philosophical perspective.
contradictions which are always the terminus of human thought when it moves exclusively in this world.
St. Paul offers the religious perspective.
Romans 7
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
You seem to have transcended the state of contradiction which defines the human condition. If you have done so you and have become inner unity. You are a better man than I and the three I have mentioned
I have not transcended anything. I regard my views and my life as nothing more than being what a human being must be to live successfully as a human being. Any other kind of life would be something less than truly human, and is, unfortunately, what most people choose. There is no superiority in how I live, there is only loss to those who choose to live otherwise.

Someone once told me about some individual who supposedly had very high values and standards, but I knew how that individual lived, which was a complete contradiction of what he claimed to believe. If I want to know what anyone truly believes and values I watch what they do and ignore what they say. You are right that most people's lives are a contradiction of what they say they believe and value, but it is not a contradiction of what they truly believe and value, because it is what they truly believe and value that they base their choices on.

If one finds that their behavior does not conform to what they believe, they have deceived themselves about what they truly believe. One's behavior is determined by what one truly believes, not what they think they believe or would like to believe. Very often that kind of conflict is the result of a belief that one can do wrong and get away with it. They believe something is wrong, but have a desire to do it, but would not do it if they knew the consequences of doing wrong could not be evaded. You hear it expressed, "I know it's wrong, but I'm just to weak to resist the temptation," which spoken or unspoken is followed by the belief, "I'll be forgiven for it anyway," which, of course is a lie.

There is nothing more self-harmful than doing what one knows is wrong. Doing right is not something noble, it is the most practical thing in the world, no matter what the cost or how difficult it is, because the alternative is the loss of all that is worth living for.
What does an alcoholic believe? He wakes up in the morning and swears off alcohol. He believes he is a slave to what he doesn't want so decides to give up drinking. Yet later in the day he believes that alcohol is necessary for him so begins the drinking cycle again.

What does the alcoholic believe? He believes he shouldn't drink and his behavior proves he believes in drinking. So what does he believe?

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Re: A ROLE MODEL FOR WOMEN

Post by RCSaunders » Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:37 am

Belinda wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:48 am
I challenged your apparent belief that you yourself , with no reference to parents, schools, or peers, originate your own ideas .
I don't blame you for challenging it. I would too, if it were my belief, but it is not and I never claimed it was.

In my previous response on volition I responded to your similar challenge:
I gather that you believe that you yourself originate your intentions and choices and are not in the slightest influenced by others or indeed by anything other than your Free Will.
To which I responded:
I'm not sure what you mean by, "influence." I've already described the realistic limits of volition. One cannot choose to speak in a language they do not know and cannot choose a kind of food or music or dress they do not know exists or have not yet thought up for themselves. ... Of course we all have some kind of specific background that is the source of all we learn and know, including all we learn from others, the kinds of cultural things we are aware of and have experienced, and you can call all those thing, "influence," if you like. In that case, "influence," only provides the pool of options available for one to choose from, but influence does not determine what one chooses.
...or, I'll add, what one chooses to think or believe.

Almost everything I know I learned from others, because I just do not have the time or resources for discovering everything for myself and it would be foolish to waste my time discovering what others have already spent their lives discovering. Learning from others is one of the great advantages of society, along with specialization and trade and probably second to finding one to love.

Nothing I have learned from others has ever been based on any supposed authority or expertise, never on what was popular, never on what I felt or desired. What I have learned from others I have learned by understanding what was taught and why it was true either because it conformed to evidence I could myself examine or because it did not contradict anything I already knew and correctly explained the concepts involved.

I was always very close to my parents, but my views ultimately were nothing like theirs. In my own experience, very few people hold the same views I do on most things. The most important of my views, today, I could not have learned from others, because no one else agrees with me; which, by the way saddens me a little for their sake, but otherwise does not matter to me at all. I still love most of them and enjoy them all. We don't have to agree on anything more than which restaurant to share our meals in.
Belinda wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:48 am
I suggested that Americans were biased towards self-origination because of the American liking for individualism.
I cannot believe you are that old, Belinda, because you certainly don't sound like it. The days of American "rugged individualism" lasted through the 1930s, perhaps, and continued to be thought typical by some "conservatives" through the 1950s, but were gone entirely by the 60s. You will not find it in the United States today. The dominate view today is social justice and various forms of collectivism. Even, "Americanism," is a kind of collectivism today, and people who think that way are considered conservatives.

In any case, my way of thinking is atypical of anything that could be called, "American." Except for the fact I am required by certain oppressive laws to reveal I was born on a continent named for the Italian, Americus Vespucci, I am no more American then any form of life that, fortunately or unfortunately, was accidentally born there. I had no choice in the matter.

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Re: A ROLE MODEL FOR WOMEN

Post by RCSaunders » Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:14 am

I'll answer such questions that are not obviously disingenuous or asking for a treatise.
Arising_uk wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:31 pm
RCSaunders wrote: No one can do wrong and get away with it. ...
How so?
Would require a treatise so briefly, wrong means what is in defiance of the nature of reality and the requirements of one's own nature as a human being. Defying gravity, taking poison, refusing to use one's mind are all wrong and the consequences are reality's just reward.
Arising_uk wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:31 pm
It is wrong to seek to have or enjoy anything one has not earned or acquired by their own effort (productive work)
So no prezzies then?
.
A present received from a loved one or in appreciation for something one values in you is earned. All other presents are insults.
Arising_uk wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:31 pm
It is wrong to fake reality in any way and the consequences of all lies and deceit are to one's own mind and consciousness. ...
What does 'faking reality' involve?
It means being dishonest in any way, with others or with oneself. It means pretending to be what one is not or pretending one does not know what is right and wrong, i.e. using the excuse of ignorance.
Arising_uk wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:31 pm
It is wrong not to learn all one can about as many things as one can.
Why?
For human beings, knowledge is a requirement of life, more important than food or drink. Without knowledge a human would not know what food or water are or how to acquire them. Everything a human being does must be chosen but one can only choose what one knows there is to choose and how to have or achieve what is chosen. To choose one must be able to think and judge which choices are the best or right ones. Knowledge is all there is to think about or to think with. The scope of an individual life is determined by the limits of one's knowledge, which limits what he can think, which limits what he can choose and do. To be all one can be, one must have all the knowledge one possibly can.
Arising_uk wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:31 pm
It is wrong not to think as well as one can about every belief and choice.
Got any techniques?

Would require a treatise, but briefly:
--Thinking is using language to ask and answer questions. One must know their own language and how to used correctly as well as possible.
--Thinking must be done intentionally and deliberately.
--Knowledge is necessary to correct thinking. What one can think and how much they can think about it is determined by how much they know and how well they know it.
--Knowledge must be true knowledge that correctly describes some aspect of reality.
--Beliefs that are not true and based only on authority, consensus, popularity, tradition, false arguments, or appeals to emotions, must be rejected.
--There are no contradictions in true knowledge or correct thinking. A contradiction means one's knowledge is wrong, thinking is incorrect, or both, and must be rejected or corrected.
--Feelings, desires, and senitments must never be allowed to influence one's thinking.
--One's language must be used correctly and one's word's unambiguously defined.
--One's premises must always be based on true knowledge derived from evidence of non-contradictory reasoning from that evidence.
--Never accept anything on the basis of authority and only accept what you, using your own thinking, understand to be true and does not contradict what you already know is true.
--Correct thinking has nothing to do with influencing others, (winning arguments), only with ensuring you know what is true in order to make right choices to live happily and successfully.
Arising_uk wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:31 pm
It is wrong to evade, in any way, one's responsibility for one's own life and actions.
Agree but got any leeway for the depressed?
No. "Depression," is usually nothing more than not feeling so hot and everyone has those experiences. It can never be an excuse for doing what is self-harmful or destructive, i.e. what is wrong, which can only make things worse. In most cases one's depression, like all other problems, are one's own fault. The solution is to fix whatever wrong thinking, choices, and behavior have produced those problems.
Arising_uk wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:31 pm
It is wrong to interfere, in any way, in another's life and choices.
Peadophiles, rapists, wife and childbeaters, etc, etc?
Unfortunately these kinds of cases are often ambiguous and too often used as an excuse by government agencies and other do-gooders to use force that ultimateley is more harmful than those harms they are supposed to correct. As a general principle it is wrong to interfere in another's life for any reason. It is never wrong, however, to prevent such interference, especially when someone is interfering, or threatening to interfere in one's own life or the lives of one's loved ones. That is not interference. It is not interference when one asks for it, and initiating interference is asking for it.
Arising_uk wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:31 pm
It is wrong to attempt to influence another in any way, from force to persuasion, for one's own gain at another's expense. (It is wrong to steal.)
Does that include helping others because one gains a sense of self satisfaction?
Yes, especially in that case, if it is at the other's expense. Too many people meddle in other's lives for the sake of their own sense of virtue which actually does those others harm. One thing I personally despise is unasked favors. If you really want to help someone, ask before doing anything as long as you can ask without being intrusive.
Arising_uk wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:31 pm
It is wrong not to achieve all one can and to be the best human being one can in all things
Agree, what happens if one thinks being a human being is to be top dog?
I'm not sure what being top dog means. If it means lording it over others, especially for one's own glory, it would violate the principles against interfering in others lives for one's own gain and faking reality. One's value as a human being is not determined by what others think of one, but what one really has made of themselves.

If it means being the best at something, so long as it only means the best one can be within the limits of one's own innate ability, that is exactly what one should strive to achieve. One's personal value is not comparative or determined by other's opinions, but on how well one lives their own life, no matter what anyone else thinks or does.
Arising_uk wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:31 pm
It is wrong to believe there are any shortcuts to knowledge, success, or achievement. There is no magic source of knowledge (like revelation), no secret method of success, (like prayer, or meditation, or incantations), and no way to achievement except hard work....
Money helps a shit load.
There is no forgiveness for any wrong and one of the worse evils is to believe one can be forgiven for doing wrong, or convincing others they can be forgiven ...
Surely that's up to the done wronged by to decide?
Unfortunately not. If one defies reality in any way, reality will not forgive them and the consequences cannot be evaded. Perhaps you are thinking if someone does some wrong that directly affects you, you may forgive them, rather than seeking revenge or retribution. If that is what you mean by forgive, one should always forgive. Nothing is gained by harming another in retribution for harm they have done or for any other reason. Two wrongs do not make a right. Nevertheless, the wrong doer cannot escape the penalty reality will inflict, no matter how many people, "forgive," him.
Arising_uk wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:31 pm
. Reality never forgives. The penalties for defying reality cannot be evaded.
Such as?
I really thought you would have answered that question for yourself. Some examples from the United States:

Approximately a quarter of all adults in the United States seek some kind of help for mental problems every year, and over their lifetime, half of all Americans will receive some kind of psychiatric treatment. Except for a very small percentage of those who actually have some physical neurological problem, such as dementia, Tourrets, epilepsy, or a brain tumor, the others just do not know how to think, choose, and live successfully, and approximately 70 thousand of them commit suicide every year. It is the penalty reality places on all those who refuse to learn how to think and choose correctly.

Approximately 55% of the people in the United States say they are unhappy with the work they do. Since one's work is the most important activity of one's life, what most people do to maintain their lives is not a source of happiness and success, but of drudgery and disappointment. Most of those fail in their jobs, or cannot find work at all, because they refuse to make the effort to learn all the can to be workers that actually have something to offer to employees.

Over 46 million Americans cannot feed themselves (are on food stamps). The government only considers 4.3 million of those on welfare, but not being able to provide your own food is not exactly successful living. It is one penalty reality places on all those who fail to be all they can be, who look for shortcuts and an easy life.

Perhaps that is why 2.5 million people (one in every 200) receive treatment for drug addiction each year. It does not matter what one's opinion is about the use of drugs, for those who seek treatment for it, it is obviously not an example of successful living.

While this statistic is skewed by the facts of outageous American laws, still, approximately 7,200,000 adults are in jail in the United States, or about three of every hundred adults, (the highest numbers for any country in the world). It does not matter why they are in jail, but it can obviously be evaded by making right choices, no matter how, "unfair," one thinks that requirement is.

Of course everything anyone suffers as the consequence of their ignorance, stupidity, bad choices and practices, their failure to produce (work) or effort to improve themselves, from poverty to disease to squalor are all reality's penalty's for defying it.

Skepdick
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Re: A ROLE MODEL FOR WOMEN

Post by Skepdick » Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:12 am

RCSaunders wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:37 am
One cannot choose to speak in a language they do not know
Of course you can choose to speak in a language you do not know. It's called "learning a new language".
RCSaunders wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:37 am
In that case, "influence," only provides the pool of options available for one to choose from, but influence does not determine what one chooses.
Influence is the elephant in the room and you are trying to sweep it under the carpet.

Influence is ALL the choices that have been made for you before you figured out you can make your own.
Influence is ALL the choices which are NOT available to you, that would be available to somebody else somewhere else.

When did you choose to speak English? What language did you speak before you made that choice?
When did you choose to be born in the country that you were born? What country were you born in before that?
When did you choose your family? What family did you have before that?

Belinda
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Re: A ROLE MODEL FOR WOMEN

Post by Belinda » Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:46 am

RC Saunders wrote:
In my previous response on volition I responded to your similar challenge:
I gather that you believe that you yourself originate your intentions and choices and are not in the slightest influenced by others or indeed by anything other than your Free Will.
To which I responded:
I'm not sure what you mean by, "influence." I've already described the realistic limits of volition. One cannot choose to speak in a language they do not know and cannot choose a kind of food or music or dress they do not know exists or have not yet thought up for themselves. ... Of course we all have some kind of specific background that is the source of all we learn and know, including all we learn from others, the kinds of cultural things we are aware of and have experienced, and you can call all those thing, "influence," if you like. In that case, "influence," only provides the pool of options available for one to choose from, but influence does not determine what one chooses.
I understand thanks.

Does not the American liking for gun ownership by private citizens indicate favouring personal independence over state control?

About a role model for women: does evangelical Protestantism present the ideal wife as subservient to her husband and as someone with lower power status than men ?

Skepdick
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Re: A ROLE MODEL FOR WOMEN

Post by Skepdick » Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:01 pm

Belinda wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:46 am
Does not the American liking for gun ownership by private citizens indicate favouring personal independence over state control?
That's the usual dichotomy. I want an effective state. I also want the freedom to own guns.

The two are not mutually exclusive. Some problems cannot be handled by the state - particularly problems where concise and immediate action is of essence.

The police cannot be everywhere and always. You are the first responder to your own crime scene.

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