Islam for Feminism?

Anything to do with gender and the status of women and men.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by Logik »

gaffo wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:55 am not quite, if you read the 10 commandments honestly - without Christian bias.
Cherry-picking. The Bible is more than the 10 commandments.

Isiah 45:51
Exodus 20:3
....
https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/No-Other-Is-God
gaffo wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:55 am it states that one should not worship others Gods before YHWH (so after "Him" is ok if you must).
YHWH is omnipresent. There is no "after" or "before".
Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by Logik »

gaffo wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:41 am trial by combat was outlawed in Britian in 1817? due to a high profile duel of the time, that law outlawing Trial by Combat was after the indepence of these United States, and so (just an an aside) Trial by Combat is still legal in America.

legally speaking, not practically speaking.

just a FYI on the matter and utterly off topic to this thread.
You have little sense of humor, don't you ? :)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews ... ombat.html
Belinda
Posts: 4067
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by Belinda »

I agree, Gaffo. Rather than group and evaluate religions according to their myths it would be better for most purposes to describe, explain, and evaluate them according to the continuum of liberal/ fundamentalist quality. it's entirely possible to be a devout Muslim and an enthusiastic and active feminist.

I think that the political misogyny among the Islamic nations is caused, not by the Koran or the mythology of Islam, but by the history of Muslim nations and ethnic groups who , historically, never experienced scientific enlightenment .
gaffo
Posts: 3488
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by gaffo »

Logik wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:11 am
gaffo wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:55 am not quite, if you read the 10 commandments honestly - without Christian bias.
Cherry-picking. The Bible is more than the 10 commandments.

Isiah 45:51
Exodus 20:3
....
https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/No-Other-Is-God
gaffo wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:55 am it states that one should not worship others Gods before YHWH (so after "Him" is ok if you must).
YHWH is omnipresent. There is no "after" or "before".
you are showing your Christian bias, if you have read the Torah as a historical document, you would not discount the clear Polythiesm found in the Torah and older Minor Prophet's works.


but carry on in your bias and assume i cherry pick if that give you comfort.

oh and as for Trial by Combat, i was just informing you if some historical trivia, but ya you are right i uttlerly lack a sense of humor, i lack personality and intelligence too, so feel free to ignore any further posts from me Bubba.
gaffo
Posts: 3488
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by gaffo »

Belinda wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:52 am I agree, Gaffo. Rather than group and evaluate religions according to their myths it would be better for most purposes to describe, explain, and evaluate them according to the continuum of liberal/ fundamentalist quality. it's entirely possible to be a devout Muslim and an enthusiastic and active feminist.

I think that the political misogyny among the Islamic nations is caused, not by the Koran or the mythology of Islam, but by the history of Muslim nations and ethnic groups
Yes!
Belinda wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:52 am who , historically, never experienced scientific enlightenment .
nope. in the past, 800-1200 AD (when Europe was in the Dark Age) - Arabs were in their Enlightenment Age - math (Algebra), adopted the East Indian numberals (including the Zero), Astronomical knowledge (which they inherited via conquoring the Zoroestrians originally, then expanded that knowledge).

the problem today with "the Arabs", is that they have forgotten that they used to have a great enlightened culture (I think their education system does not inform them of this history - why? not sure why - but i've met many Muslims and most of them do not know it)

the other problem is that sad but true the Muslim world today is in its own version of our former European Dark Age, they know this (have a sense of thier "past glory" (a sense of it, but ignorant of it too - as state above) - and out of their inferiority complex "strike out" (and why fundimentalism is so appealing to them, it strokes the egp (they feel inferior - and fundie mentality provides a "purpose, mission, make one feel important)

I can't stress this enough - the arab world has a HUGE inferiority complex, they see the Israelis treating their Palistinians as animals and the latter unable to do anything about it, they see America and Europe living in a society with higher standard of living, they remember Americans removing Mosidek, etc...........there is much hate (self hate too!!!!) toward us for this (but really its self hate - a sense of failure, which manifests itself as classical tranferance. I'm not saying "The West" is just in internation politics/history - we did unjustly remove Mosidek, colonized their nations for 100 yrs or so......etc,,,,,,,,,,just saying thier self sense of lack of worth plays the bigger picture and provides the dissproportionate hate/greivence toward the west than simple historical acts would.

and finally, this here in the real world - right now and here - is the biggest problem (and if we can remove this - the above issues with solve themselves in time) is Saudi Arabia's funding of Mosques all over the world, all of which dissparage Sufism/other liberal sects if Islam - and solely champion and convert folks going to those Mosques to the most fundementalist versions of Wahhabism (which is fundie in general to start with!).

The Saudis do this for National interests (to secure power over Iran their region enemy (just as India is championing Hinduism vs Pakistan their version of conservative Islam( those two nations have the same region power issues), as they should (as I would if I were Saudi Arabia).

thanks for reply BTW
Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by Logik »

gaffo wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:38 am you are showing your Christian bias, if you have read the Torah as a historical document, you would not discount the clear Polythiesm found in the Torah and older Minor Prophet's works.

but carry on in your bias and assume i cherry pick if that give you comfort.
You are focusing on the messenger and not the message. Do you think polytheism and monotheism are any different in practice?

That which makes a religion is the rituals and practices being adhered to. Whether you perform 10 rituals in service of 10 gods. Or 10 rituals in service of 1 capricious god. There is absolutely no distinction in practice. Only in narratives.

You are still performing 10 rituals.
gaffo
Posts: 3488
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by gaffo »

Logik wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:11 am
gaffo wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:38 am you are showing your Christian bias, if you have read the Torah as a historical document, you would not discount the clear Polythiesm found in the Torah and older Minor Prophet's works.

but carry on in your bias and assume i cherry pick if that give you comfort.
You are focusing on the messenger and not the message.

not at all - I'm an Atheist.

I take personal interest in "dissecting" theologies - not just Christian, but other Faiths too, i also (even moreso) - like to pars out differences in theologies within Faiths - noting the theme of each work, as the interest of the author.

for Example, per Christianity, i note that the author of Mark viewed Jesus as 100-percent man until his baptism by John in Jordan River, THEN he was adopted by YHWH as his Son (literally His Son - not a part of The Father, nor the Holy Ghost).

Matt and Luke only partly agree - they affirm Mark's view of the nature of Christ as literally YHWH's son - not more than that - , but dissagree as to his nature how he became God's son, they reject Mark's theology that Jesus was born a man, instead claim he was born via YHWH as his Son.

Gospel of John rejects the Synopics fully, it claims Jesus was never born! (he existed in spiritual form PRIOR to being born via mary) AND it claims Christ IS YHWH!

the claims made in John are not supported in the Synoptics, nor in Paul's letters (Pauls seemed to be more in accord with Matt/Luke on the nature of Christ) - lterally YHWH's Son, though he does seem to view that me might have pre-existance.


BTW MATT and Luke are identical in the theology of Jesus, but not Satan. the Former (Matt) affirms Mark in the "devine plan/need" for Jesus to be crucified. so crucifiction is a devine mystery, but a good deed.

Luke views the opposite, the Satan killed Christ, and that YHWH/his Son "won" over Satan on the 3rd day with christ ressurection. so according to Luke, Jesus had no need to be killed, and could have fullfilled his mission living to old age.
Logik wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:11 am Do you think polytheism and monotheism are any different in practice?
sure, they are worshiping different gods.

Logik wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:11 am That which makes a religion is the rituals and practices being adhered to. Whether you perform 10 rituals in service of 10 gods. Or 10 rituals in service of 1 capricious god. There is absolutely no distinction in practice. Only in narratives.
care to elaborate?

Logik wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:11 am You are still performing 10 rituals.

no, i'm not OCD enough, i have a dissorganized nature - sloth, combined with non-habit forming tendencies. its why i've not cleaned my house nor car in over 2 years.
gaffo
Posts: 3488
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by gaffo »

in terms of "narrative" - which i also note and value, i will say i like Mark the best, in that the narrative is that of a man placed under a great weight (adopted by God), with uncertainty at times. a very human character.

matt/luke - predictably since thier version of Christ has a higher divinity, the character is less human, but still relatable.

john, again is the outlier, where the character has all the answers and seem more robot than man, and not relatable as a human person at all.

Modern Christianity - since around 300 AD - has affirmed John's christology, and twisted the theologies in the Synopics to conform to it.

and by and large it has worked, mark is the least read least valued, and then matt/luke a little more regarded, but compared to John not regarded much.
Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by Logik »

gaffo wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:42 am
That which makes a religion is the rituals and practices being adhered to. Whether you perform 10 rituals in service of 10 gods. Or 10 rituals in service of 1 capricious god. There is absolutely no distinction in practice. Only in narratives.
care to elaborate?
What makes a religion is the little rituals people do: hang out together on Sundays. Break bread on Shabbos. Light candles in front of some pictures at 5am and sing prayer. Fast in April. Celebrate birth of some dude in December. All of those are things people DO. Real, empirical, scientifically verifiable actions.

All of those rituals is what builds communities. Builds camaraderie, cooperation and solidarity. The "I believe in God" part is just what you SAY. It's just a linguistic ritual. It means absolutely nothing. It's an epiphenomenon to the rituals.

In contrast to the actual rituals people do the "I believe in God" part is NOT testable by science. As I keep challenging people (and thy keep failing) to determine my (a)theism empirically.

And so as far as any scientist is concerned religion (monotheistic or polytheistic) is about rituals and behaviour, not the God-belief.

Does group prayer work? Of course it works! When you let the entire community know that John is having a problem, SOMEBODY who knows how to help will come to John's help! As far as John is concerned "God did it".

Confession and prayer - same as modern day psychotherapy. Only cheaper.

All these rituals serve a purpose, and some times they do work, but not for the reasons people say they work (they say God - which basically means "i have no clue how it works"). That's hardly a problem though. Competence does not require comprehension. You drive a car without having an understanding of how an engine works. You use a computer without having an understanding how a CPU is built. etc etc.

And so back to the number of rituals/gods.

Hindus have simply chosen to fragment the capriciousness of one God into as many deities they desire. Shiva - the destroyer. Hanuman - the celibate. Ganesha - the problem solver/obstacle remover. The Abrahamic god simply suffers from multiple personality disorder.

Because the Abrahamic god is created in our own image :)
gaffo
Posts: 3488
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by gaffo »

Logik wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:57 am
gaffo wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:42 am
That which makes a religion is the rituals and practices being adhered to. Whether you perform 10 rituals in service of 10 gods. Or 10 rituals in service of 1 capricious god. There is absolutely no distinction in practice. Only in narratives.
care to elaborate?
What makes a religion is the little rituals people do: hang out together on Sundays. Break bread on Shabbos. Light candles in front of some pictures at 5am and sing prayer. Fast in April. Celebrate birth of some dude in December. All of those are things people DO. Real, empirical, scientifically verifiable actions.

All of those rituals is what builds communities. Builds camaraderie, cooperation and solidarity. The "I believe in God" part is just what you SAY. It's just a linguistic ritual. It means absolutely nothing. It's an epiphenomenon to the rituals.

In contrast to the actual rituals people do the "I believe in God" part is NOT testable by science. As I keep challenging people (and thy keep failing) to determine my (a)theism empirically.

And so as far as any scientist is concerned religion (monotheistic or polytheistic) is about rituals and behaviour, not the God-belief.

Does group prayer work? Of course it works! When you let the entire community know that John is having a problem, SOMEBODY who knows how to help will come to John's help! As far as John is concerned "God did it".

Confession and prayer - same as modern day psychotherapy. Only cheaper.

All these rituals serve a purpose, and some times they do work, but not for the reasons people say they work (they say God - which basically means "i have no clue how it works"). That's hardly a problem though. Competence does not require comprehension. You drive a car without having an understanding of how an engine works. You use a computer without having an understanding how a CPU is built. etc etc.

And so back to the number of rituals/gods.
yes i agree ritual is probably the most important aspect of Relgion over Dogma.

esp in the "old country". maybe no so much here in modern protestantism though.
Logik wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:57 am Hindus have simply chosen to fragment the capriciousness of one God into as many deities they desire. Shiva - the destroyer. Hanuman - the celibate. Ganesha - the problem solver/obstacle remover. The Abrahamic god simply suffers from multiple personality disorder.

Because the Abrahamic god is created in our own image :)
Hinduism is what "We" (the west) would have had had Christianity not overun Greco-Roman Religion. if not for Christianity, we in the west would have our own version of Hinduism - Roman/Greece Religion today as the majorty religion in the west.

Hindus, like all the polythiestic religions with the "city gods" just adopted the new gods via trade/conquest of other peoples gods, and included them into their own.

I assume it was the same in way in the pre-columbian world was well (but thanks the spanish burning all those texts we will never really know).
Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by Logik »

gaffo wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:08 am yes i agree ritual is probably the most important aspect of Relgion over Dogma.
So if you recognize that aspect, then by calling yourself an "atheist" are you saying that you practice no rituals whatsoever ? ;)
surreptitious57
Posts: 4217
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by surreptitious57 »

Logic wrote:
by calling yourself an atheist are you saying that you practice no rituals whatsoever ?
I practice no rituals that are specific to atheism for they would be entirely superfluous
Belief systems have rituals but atheism is not a belief system so they are not necessary
Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by Logik »

surreptitious57 wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:11 am I practice no rituals that are specific to atheism for they would be entirely superfluous
You are thinking about this backwards. Your actions and behaviors define you. Not the label you have chosen for yourself.
The set of rituals you practice defines your religion not the other way around.

If you observe Easter, Christmas, go to Church on Sundays morning etc. etc. etc THEN you are a Christian.
If you observe Ramadan, Eid, go to Mosque on Friday at noon etc. etc. THEN you are a Muslim.
If you observe Pasach, Hannukah and SUkkot, go to Synagogue on Fridays and observe the Shabbos THEN you are a Jew.
surreptitious57 wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:11 am Belief systems have rituals but atheism is not a belief system so they are not necessary
But you DO practice some rituals even if they have nothing to do with atheism. Do you not? Brushing your teeth. Drinking beer with mates on Friday evening, watch football, Hanging out with family on Easter/Christmas (same as every Christian), going to doctor when you are ill.

And at the very least the Atheistic rituals you do practice are probably something like: arguing with theists, rejecting theistic rituals (except Christmas! Because everybody loves gifts!), etc. etc. etc.

Those rituals define your "religion". Those very rituals may become questionable taboos to future generations. As and when we all have "automated robot doctors" in our house - people who still insist going to actual doctors will be seen as "weird". As and if we ever find ourselves as a culture of teetotalers - people who drink beer will be seen as weird. Watching football may be as unacceptable to the people of year 4500 as Gladiator fighting in Rome is unacceptable to us today.

Rituals. They serve a purpose....
Belinda
Posts: 4067
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by Belinda »

Gaffo wrote:
nope. in the past, 800-1200 AD (when Europe was in the Dark Age) - Arabs were in their Enlightenment Age - math (Algebra), adopted the East Indian numberals (including the Zero), Astronomical knowledge (which they inherited via conquoring the Zoroestrians originally, then expanded that knowledge).

the problem today with "the Arabs", is that they have forgotten that they used to have a great enlightened culture (I think their education system does not inform them of this history - why? not sure why - but i've met many Muslims and most of them do not know it)
That's true. However historical circumstances in western Europe after the European Dark Ages involved the printing press, Renaissance, Reformation, and then followed European scientific enlightenment; all this sequence accompanied by increasing military and imperial power in western Europe , power which the Muslims' world lost.

"Not sure why-" I guess that the Muslims whom you have met have been badly taught for the same reasons that Christians and others may be badly taught. Usually poverty of state education is the cause. There are better educated Muslims I've heard them on television.
surreptitious57
Posts: 4217
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by surreptitious57 »

Logic wrote:
But you DO practice some rituals even if they have nothing to do with atheism. Do you not ? Brushing your teeth. Drinking beer with mates
on Friday evening watch football Hanging out with family on Easter / Christmas ( same as every Christian ) going to doctor when you are ill

And at the very least the Atheistic rituals you do practice are probably something like : arguing with theists / rejecting theistic rituals
( except Christmas ! Because everybody loves gifts ! ) etc etc etc

Those rituals define your religion. Those very rituals may become questionable taboos to future generations. As and when we all have
automated robot doctors in our house - people who still insist going to actual doctors will be seen as weird. As and if we ever find ourselves as
a culture of teetotalers - people who drink beer will be seen as weird. Watching football may be as unacceptable to the people of year 4500 as Gladiator fighting in Rome is unacceptable to us today
Some of your examples are extremely trivial indeed : you brush your teeth because its healthy to do so
You visit your doctor when you are ill in order to get better. I would describe these as habits not rituals

Arguing with theists isnt mandatory for atheists and I dont do it anymore. I have to reject theistic rituals otherwise
I couldnt be an atheist so thats basically a tautology and therefore only trivially true. And I dont celebrate Christmas

I also dont live my life according to what future generations not yet born might think of me because how would I know ?
Post Reply