Islam for Feminism?

Anything to do with gender and the status of women and men.

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JohnHermes
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Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by JohnHermes » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:04 am

Islam originally a religion based on dualism. Meaning the "female" aspect of God is hidden. The true meaning of a womans "veil" has nothing to do with what she wears, and everything to do with spiritually.

Dachshund
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Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:40 pm

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by Dachshund » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:11 am

Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:51 am
dorothea wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:46 am
Not quite a Muslim yet. You must say the shahada - There is no God but Allah and Mohammmed is his prophet. It does not matter is you say it voluntarily or with a knife at your throat: say it and you're in. The distinction between outcome and intention does not figure in Islamic practice.
Yes! Good point. Let me fix that.

There is no God but Allah and Mohammmed is his prophet.
لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا ٱلله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ ٱلله

Now I am a Muslim, right?

Allah, not that I am negotiating (but I am) please make sure VA is NOT on the list of virgins. OK? Thanks.
No, you're not quite there yet. Now, too finish the process of conversion to the faith, you need to perform a ritual ablution. This is generally done these days by simply taking a shower. (i.e; "shower" in the sense of washing yourself under the water from a bathroom shower) This symbolic cleansing is a very important part of converting to the Islamic faith.

Regards

Dachshund

Logik
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Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by Logik » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:19 am

Dachshund wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:11 am
Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:51 am
dorothea wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:46 am
Not quite a Muslim yet. You must say the shahada - There is no God but Allah and Mohammmed is his prophet. It does not matter is you say it voluntarily or with a knife at your throat: say it and you're in. The distinction between outcome and intention does not figure in Islamic practice.
Yes! Good point. Let me fix that.

There is no God but Allah and Mohammmed is his prophet.
لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا ٱلله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ ٱلله

Now I am a Muslim, right?

Allah, not that I am negotiating (but I am) please make sure VA is NOT on the list of virgins. OK? Thanks.
No, you're not quite there yet. Now, too finish the process of conversion to the faith, you need to perform a ritual ablution. This is generally done these days by simply taking a shower. (i.e; "shower" in the sense of washing yourself under the water from a bathroom shower) This symbolic cleansing is a very important part of converting to the Islamic faith.

Regards

Dachshund
I have showered every day since.

Last one was 20 minutes ago.

I am sure we can tick that box?

Belinda
Posts: 2867
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by Belinda » Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:48 am

Is the problem with Islamic ideology that no further interpretations of the Koran are permitted?

gaffo
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Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by gaffo » Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:31 am

Belinda wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:48 am
Is the problem with Islamic ideology that no further interpretations of the Koran are permitted?
Yes i think that is a problem. I did not think the Koran "walled off future revalations" but VA provided quotes from the Koran saying it does.

so i affirm VA's view on this matter.

BTW Christian's say the Bible is "walled off" and refer to Revelations to support that claim - and why latter books like the Koran must be irreliligious (not a work of God, but of the Devel/ or man).............but when you refer to their claim of "the bible being walled off" - per their reference in book of Rev, those verses pertain ONLY to the work The Apocalypse itself!!!!!!!! not to any outside works!

so though the Muslim claim may be apt, the christian one is not.

thus we have the latter revalation from the mormans.

lol.

gaffo
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Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by gaffo » Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:40 am

Koran as VA says is clear, no future books/prophets (even if prophets affirm Islamic theology)

I did not know Koran walled off latter prophesy, but it seems to so i learned something about islam here. even though i knew some of it from reading the koran 30 yrs ago. i did not read all of it obviously.




“O people! No prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore O people! And, understand words that I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Quran and the sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray.” (Al-Haythami)

It is evident from these words that:

(a) Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the last prophet.

(b) The Quran, along with the sunnah – which, in fact, is the practical interpretation of the Quran – is the perfected guidance of Allah to mankind.


yes seems clear to me.

question to VA, i know of the Haddith but not he Sunnah, are these the same thing? or close to it?

gaffo
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Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by gaffo » Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:51 am

So as an objective observer who has read most of the Old Testement, and less of the New and Koran, we can sum up that:

Theologically, Judaism and Islam are the same, and though the former allows future revelations/books - deny the latter work the Koran as authorative and from God (why so?). the latter Islam does not allow future revelation/prophets/books.

Christianity - though claims it does not allow future revalation/prophets/books, that claim is false and only relivent to book of Rev, and not the christian theology/Bible overall so it like Judaism allows future prophets/books/revelation.

I'm an atheist BTW if that is of any importance. i think it allow me to be objective personally, but other may disagree about that concept.

Belinda
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Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by Belinda » Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:08 am

Gaffo quoted:

“O people! No prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore O people! And, understand words that I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Quran and the sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray.” (Al-Haythami)

It is evident from these words that:

(a) Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the last prophet.


That's plain enough. What is less certain is whether or not interpretations of the Koran are being permitted by a Muslim. The important interpretation which should be permitted is that Muhammad and the Koran relate to the circumstances of the times and place of origin. If this is accepted the Koran will , for many people, retain a lot of wisdom without the whole of it being literally true.

Logik
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Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by Logik » Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:38 am

Belinda wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:08 am
Gaffo quoted:

“O people! No prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore O people! And, understand words that I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Quran and the sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray.” (Al-Haythami)

It is evident from these words that:

(a) Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the last prophet.


That's plain enough. What is less certain is whether or not interpretations of the Koran are being permitted by a Muslim. The important interpretation which should be permitted is that Muhammad and the Koran relate to the circumstances of the times and place of origin. If this is accepted the Koran will , for many people, retain a lot of wisdom without the whole of it being literally true.
Muhammad prophesied: No prophet or apostle will come after me
The Flying Spaghetti Monster prophesied: all prophets before me were wrong.

This is a conundrum... We really need something like celebrity deathmatch for prophets. Or trial by combat.

Belinda
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Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by Belinda » Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:48 pm

Logik wrote:
Muhammad prophesied: No prophet or apostle will come after me
The Flying Spaghetti Monster prophesied: all prophets before me were wrong.
What I do like about Islam is that idolatry is the worst sin against Allah.

Muhammad , and the FSM are changed into idols by " No prophet or apostle will come after me" and "all prophets before me were wrong".

Allah is eternal but Muhahammad was a man. If eternal truths are revealed to any man the truths become adulterated with the temporal and relative.

Logik
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Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by Logik » Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:27 pm

Belinda wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:48 pm
What I do like about Islam is that idolatry is the worst sin against Allah.
The Bible has the same terms and conditions. Even the concept of Truth demands the same of those who pursue it. This is the game of Philosophy, no?
What which can be expressed in words is immediately rejected, challenged for it becomes dogma.

We can never quite capture Truth in words. It is always-elusive yet always pursued. And so - every "truth" we capture in words becomes idolized.

Mathematics. Science..... false idols :)

If you think about the scientific process it doesn't create knowledge as much as it removes bullshit. It cleans house.
And so it's not so much about what we CAN say, it's more about what we CANNOT say.

Which strikes great similarity to the Apophatic way of reasoning about God.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophatic_theology

I believe this is the same sentiment: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. – Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

Belinda
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Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by Belinda » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:58 am

Logik wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:27 pm
Belinda wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:48 pm
What I do like about Islam is that idolatry is the worst sin against Allah.
The Bible has the same terms and conditions. Even the concept of Truth demands the same of those who pursue it. This is the game of Philosophy, no?
What which can be expressed in words is immediately rejected, challenged for it becomes dogma.

We can never quite capture Truth in words. It is always-elusive yet always pursued. And so - every "truth" we capture in words becomes idolized.

Mathematics. Science..... false idols :)

If you think about the scientific process it doesn't create knowledge as much as it removes bullshit. It cleans house.
And so it's not so much about what we CAN say, it's more about what we CANNOT say.

Which strikes great similarity to the Apophatic way of reasoning about God.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophatic_theology

I believe this is the same sentiment: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. – Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
I endorse all that :)

gaffo
Posts: 2354
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by gaffo » Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:41 am

Logik wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:38 am


This is a conundrum... We really need something like celebrity deathmatch for prophets. Or trial by combat.
trial by combat was outlawed in Britian in 1817? due to a high profile duel of the time, that law outlawing Trial by Combat was after the indepence of these United States, and so (just an an aside) Trial by Combat is still legal in America.

legally speaking, not practically speaking.

just a FYI on the matter and utterly off topic to this thread.

gaffo
Posts: 2354
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by gaffo » Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:46 am

Belinda wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:48 pm
Logik wrote:
Muhammad prophesied: No prophet or apostle will come after me
The Flying Spaghetti Monster prophesied: all prophets before me were wrong.
What I do like about Islam is that idolatry is the worst sin against Allah.

Muhammad , and the FSM are changed into idols by " No prophet or apostle will come after me" and "all prophets before me were wrong".

Allah is eternal but Muhahammad was a man. If eternal truths are revealed to any man the truths become adulterated with the temporal and relative.
you point is wise, and i too note the Sufis and Ahmadiyya as "liberal minded Muslims", though the fudie Sunni Wabbists, and similar ilk from the Shia camp do not.


same as Pentocostle vs mainline protestants, and Reform Jews vs Hallika ilk.

potato pototo. tomato tomoto.

gaffo
Posts: 2354
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by gaffo » Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:55 am

Logik wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:27 pm
Belinda wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:48 pm
What I do like about Islam is that idolatry is the worst sin against Allah.
The Bible has the same terms and conditions.
not quite, if you read the 10 commandments honestly - without Christian bias.

it states that one should not worship others Gods before YHWH (so after "Him" is ok if you must).
and that one is not to make a graven image of YHWH - the 10 commandments are silent on matters of making graven images of other jewish Gods (there were many, Baal (YHWH's brother), Asheria (YHWH's wife), Tammuz, Mot.etc........


BTW, El was Baal's and YHWH's dad, YHWH was not El, they made them the same God later...........as the text of OT makes clear in its insistance they are one and the same (why protest so much about a thing, unless those at the time though otherwise?)

- just clarifying our erronious assertion about this particular matter.

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