Islam for Feminism?

Anything to do with gender and the status of women and men.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Logik
Posts: 4048
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by Logik » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:28 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:48 am
A Muslim in according to the Quran - the ultimate constitution of Islam - is a person who has entered into a contract/covenant implicitly or explicitly with Allah with a promise of eternal life in Paradise.
I've never read anything other than English translations of the Quran, but since what VA says is gospel....

I, Logik Logicus hereby, implicitly or explicitly declare that I enter into a contract/covenant with Allah, in exchange for eternal life in Paradise.

Signed, Me.
On this 1st day of February 2019.
Witnessed by many!

So I am a Muslim now. Ask me questions!

First confession. I have a list of people that I would gladly punch in the face if it weren't for my morals (so all I get to do is fantasise about it).

The first 10 (and maybe even 20) names on that list are Veritas Aequitas.

dorothea
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:46 pm

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by dorothea » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:46 am

Not quite a Muslim yet. You must say the shahada - There is no God but Allah and Mohammmed is his prophet. It does not matter is you say it voluntarily or with a knife at your throat: say it and you're in. The distinction between outcome and intention does not figure in Islamic practice.

Logik
Posts: 4048
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by Logik » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:51 am

dorothea wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:46 am
Not quite a Muslim yet. You must say the shahada - There is no God but Allah and Mohammmed is his prophet. It does not matter is you say it voluntarily or with a knife at your throat: say it and you're in. The distinction between outcome and intention does not figure in Islamic practice.
Yes! Good point. Let me fix that.

There is no God but Allah and Mohammmed is his prophet.
لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا ٱلله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ ٱلله

Now I am a Muslim, right?

Allah, not that I am negotiating (but I am) please make sure VA is NOT on the list of virgins. OK? Thanks.

gaffo
Posts: 2354
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by gaffo » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:36 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:49 am
gaffo wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:25 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:20 am

Note my point, the Quran is the immutable words of God and whatever is conveyed 1400 years ago is supposedly final and applicable till all Muslims go to Paradise with eternal life, if not till eternity.
kind of off topic, but wish to ask.

do Muslims assume the Koran is the Final Word (I assume they do - as Christians - per their missinterpretation of Revelations - i,e, they assume that work's mandate to not add it means there is cannot be a latter revalation/book from God - when that mandate refers to the work of The Apocalypes itself, and not to other latter revalations God may provide).

i,e, does the Koran explicitly say:

1. there cannot be any addition to this work
2. there cannot be latter works from prophets that also are God's word.

asking you - assuming you know the Koran.

and utterly off topic of thread, sorry.
It is not assumed by Muslims but rather it is divinely ordained by Allah in the Quran, the Quran itself is the Final Revelation and Muhammad is the Final Prophet.
It is imperative for any Muslim to believe the above, else they will go to HELL.

Not only that the Quran is claiming it is the Final Revelation, the Quran also condemned all existing Holy Texts [Bible, Torah, Gita, etc.] as corrupted and useless.

The above imply your points;
1. there cannot be any addition to this work
2. there cannot be latter works from prophets that also are God's word.
This why the Ahamadiyahs, the Sufis, i.e. the later more human version of Islam are condemned as heretics and are often killed.

Note this;
http://aboutislam.net/counseling/ask-ab ... testament/

The Holy Quran clearly states that the divine guidance of Allah is completed with the revelation of the very last verse revealed in the Quran, which was in Surah 5, verse 3:

{This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion.}

The occasion of this revelation was the last sermon of the prophet, delivered during his last pilgrimage. On this occasion he (peace be upon him) said:

“O people! No prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore O people! And, understand words that I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Quran and the sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray.” (Al-Haythami)

It is evident from these words that:

(a) Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the last prophet.

(b) The Quran, along with the sunnah – which, in fact, is the practical interpretation of the Quran – is the perfected guidance of Allah to mankind.

The Prophet (peace be upon him) has also said:

“…O Allah, be my witness, that I have conveyed your message to Your people.”(Ibn Majah)

And, remember that it was as part of this sermon that the prophet recited to them a revelation from Allah, which he had just received, and which completed and finalized the Quran, for it was the last passage to be revealed (Surah 5, verse 3 – quoted above).

Towards the end of his sermon, the prophet (peace be upon them) asked:

“O people, have I faithfully delivered unto you my message?”

A powerful murmur of assents: “O Allah! Yes!” arose from thousands of pilgrims and the vibrant words “Allahumma na`am” (God! Surely yes…) rolled like thunder throughout the valley.

The prophet raised his forefinger and said:

“O Allah bear witness that I have conveyed your message to Your people.” (Ibn Majah)

In addition, we can read the following verse too in the Quran – Surah 33, verse 40:

{Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the messenger of Allah and the seal of all the prophets. And Allah knows all things.}

Scholars of Arabic language are unanimous in the meaning of the word khaatam(seal). Every mufassir (commentator of the Quran) has translated khaatam to mean final, including Ibn Jarir al-Tabri, Imam Fakhru-din al-Razi, Imam Jalaalu-din Suyooti, and Ibn Kathir.

The commentators have also agreed that anyone who denies that Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is the final and last prophet, is not a Muslim.
I thank you sir - you reply shows that Muslim theology - found in the koran itself - rejects future/latter works of God as valid.

of course i view that as wrong (ya i'm an atheist) - but your reference to the koran seems clear to me.

I thank you for educating me via an actual verse of from that work (which seems more universal than the one the christian use toward their own theology (Rev is per its work - not a universal christian theology).

I thank you for addressing my inquary - though off topic of this thead - it allowed me to understand the mentality via the koran, and so i thank you Sir.


good day to you.

gaffo
Posts: 2354
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by gaffo » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:44 pm

Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:28 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:48 am
A Muslim in according to the Quran - the ultimate constitution of Islam - is a person who has entered into a contract/covenant implicitly or explicitly with Allah with a promise of eternal life in Paradise.
I've never read anything other than English translations of the Quran, but since what VA says is gospel....

nor i - as long as translation is apt, are you claiming VA referenece to sura so and so is not a apt translation?

BTW do you claim translations by default negate the theme of the work?

if so then entire bible, bagivad gita, all works by Dofiesky(sp) - underground man, the trial/etc.............can only be understood by native speakers.

VA replied to my inquary with a verse - not his opinion upon.

are you contesting the accuracy of the translation of that verse? (I only speal English - do you know Arabic - if so i welcome how the english translation is so wrong as to nullify's VA reply to my inquary)

Logik
Posts: 4048
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by Logik » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:51 pm

gaffo wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:44 pm
Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:28 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:48 am
A Muslim in according to the Quran - the ultimate constitution of Islam - is a person who has entered into a contract/covenant implicitly or explicitly with Allah with a promise of eternal life in Paradise.
I've never read anything other than English translations of the Quran, but since what VA says is gospel....

nor i - as long as translation is apt, are you claiming VA referenece to sura so and so is not a apt translation?

BTW do you claim translations by default negate the theme of the work?

if so then entire bible, bagivad gita, all works by Dofiesky(sp) - underground man, the trial/etc.............can only be understood by native speakers.

VA replied to my inquary with a verse - not his opinion upon.

are you contesting the accuracy of the translation of that verse? (I only speal English - do you know Arabic - if so i welcome how the english translation is so wrong as to nullify's VA reply to my inquary)
I am contesting that actions speak louder than words.

There are many books that say many things and preach many truths.

I am yet to see any follower of any religion practice it verbatim.

Hell, most of the time I can’t even stick to a new year resolution food diet. You think you can stick to 600 pages of rules?

Good luck.

But really, the purpose of my parody is to demonstrate that VA puts far too much weight on definitions and very little weight on empiricism and behaviourism.

So, as he had defined it - so I am a Muslim.

gaffo
Posts: 2354
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by gaffo » Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:44 am

Logik wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:51 pm
gaffo wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:44 pm
Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:28 am

I've never read anything other than English translations of the Quran, but since what VA says is gospel....

nor i - as long as translation is apt, are you claiming VA referenece to sura so and so is not a apt translation?

BTW do you claim translations by default negate the theme of the work?

if so then entire bible, bagivad gita, all works by Dofiesky(sp) - underground man, the trial/etc.............can only be understood by native speakers.

VA replied to my inquary with a verse - not his opinion upon.

are you contesting the accuracy of the translation of that verse? (I only speal English - do you know Arabic - if so i welcome how the english translation is so wrong as to nullify's VA reply to my inquary)
I am contesting that actions speak louder than words.

There are many books that say many things and preach many truths.

I am yet to see any follower of any religion practice it verbatim.

Hell, most of the time I can’t even stick to a new year resolution food diet. You think you can stick to 600 pages of rules?

Good luck.

But really, the purpose of my parody is to demonstrate that VA puts far too much weight on definitions and very little weight on empiricism and behaviourism.

So, as he had defined it - so I am a Muslim.
I agree fully - and why i do not fear Islam (I read 1/3 of Koran in the 80's -before most even gave that faith a though here in america). I concur and champion unversal humanism (and so even if a faith is evil - VA view - not mine (I find it identical to Judiam theiology, and so find both bad stuff (parts of Koran/most of Torah bad - but also some good stuff - like the remainder of the Koran/minor prophets of OT - Job, Jonah, Amos) - Job is about not being pridefilled and blaim YHWH for your oppression (Job was Israel BTW - not a man - but the people of Israel, who were losing faith over the occupation by the Persions for 200 yrs - when the Author work the work (250 BC) - Amos was written when "Irael ruled the world and was sitting hight", (oldest work in the OT BTW - 800 BC), its author was all about being Humble and to except being "god's chosen" as a Responisiblity/Model for all the rest (rather then be filled with pride and hope for the Day of Yahwah - where all others will be destroyed for their acts/nature). jonah - the real part is all about a Pagan fishermen (being "heathen-polytheists" refused to overthrow Jonah when he slepted oblivious of the storm) Jonah lacked the wisdom of God, nor accepted the morality of the fisherman in the story........for at the end of the story after being "forced to save the CATTLE"/and men there too i assume (for even the Cattle were more godly than Jonah! - per the author of jonah, jonah cursed the vine YHWH offered to shade him!!!!!!!!!! Jonah learned nothing - the readers of Jonah may have learned more (that Jonah a "jew" as an asshole to the end, and many non-jews are Godly, though pagan).

author of Jonah/amos and Job were univeral humanists. not tribal, they affirmed a higher mindset of right conduct.

Jonah was written to counter Ezra -Ezra was written shortly before Jonah - Ezra was a dick, demanded for divorce of Jews with non, and headed the construction of the 2nd temple after the return (80-pecent of Jews never lets Israel - only top 20-percenters were take to Babylon) - Ezra was an elitist dick - which the work in his name seems to show - IMO.

VA offered a "verse" to my inquary. and so it seems that Islam denies future Revelation from God.

I thank him for clearifing this.

of course men of goodwill - be they muslim or not - will not think/act like tribal dicks. even if thier book (a quote or two at least) demand it.

thanks for reply.

BTW the Koran was not written by one man - there is little historical evidence that survives today, but the little that remains shows it was written in Iraq/Eastern Israel, took much Christian Gnostic views per Adam/Eve story. Its FAR from a unified work written by one man - Mohammed (in fact i personally do not think he wrote any of it). I think there were several authors of 200- 100 yr prior him.

but I'm not a Muslim and so my views will be viewed as blasphemy by most Muslims.

gaffo
Posts: 2354
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by gaffo » Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:54 am

BTW in my life i've had close friends of muslim and hindu faith.

their faith did not define their character, the latter did define if i called them a friend however.


and vise versa of course. my character in spite of my atheism.


peace.

Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 1795
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:22 am

gaffo wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:44 am
BTW the Koran was not written by one man - there is little historical evidence that survives today, but the little that remains shows it was written in Iraq/Eastern Israel, took much Christian Gnostic views per Adam/Eve story. Its FAR from a unified work written by one man - Mohammed (in fact i personally do not think he wrote any of it). I think there were several authors of 200- 100 yr prior him.

but I'm not a Muslim and so my views will be viewed as blasphemy by most Muslims.
I agree the Quran did not originate, was not transmitted nor written by one man.

Btw, you did not go off topic since the Quran is fundamental to why Islam is misogynistic and anti-feminism.

It is believed the Quran was compiled by the a group of people driven by politics and imperialism and they were well aware religion is the opium of the masses, and they thus use Islam and the religion to control the masses.

I don't believe there was a real Muhammad who received revelations from Allah. It is more likely there could be a notorious tribal warlord, robber, gang-leader during that time and these group of people used such a person as a representative and central figure.
It the same with Buddhism and the Buddha Story, where the Prince abandoning his inheritance to his kingdom was merely a myth.

It is well known the group of imperialists burned all versions of the Quran and promoted only one, supposedly the present one. Somehow a few earlier versions were found to be different as the one that is claimed to be the pristine version from Allah.

Note,
Do Not Blame Muslims! Never!
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=24842&p=370344&hil ... ms#p370344

As for Muslims we cannot blame them as they are first ordinary human beings who naturally have the inclinations to be good people. Muslims as ordinary people will tend to be nice, empathic and helpful to non-Muslims.
It is when certain Muslims get serious that they have no choice but to comply with the commands [in reality are evil acts] by Allah in the Quran so that they will be assured of going to Paradise and avoiding Hell.

gaffo
Posts: 2354
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by gaffo » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:05 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:22 am
gaffo wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:44 am
BTW the Koran was not written by one man - there is little historical evidence that survives today, but the little that remains shows it was written in Iraq/Eastern Israel, took much Christian Gnostic views per Adam/Eve story. Its FAR from a unified work written by one man - Mohammed (in fact i personally do not think he wrote any of it). I think there were several authors of 200- 100 yr prior him.

but I'm not a Muslim and so my views will be viewed as blasphemy by most Muslims.
I agree the Quran did not originate, was not transmitted nor written by one man.

Btw, you did not go off topic since the Quran is fundamental to why Islam is misogynistic and anti-feminism.

It is believed the Quran was compiled by the a group of people driven by politics and imperialism and they were well aware religion is the opium of the masses, and they thus use Islam and the religion to control the masses.

I don't believe there was a real Muhammad who received revelations from Allah. It is more likely there could be a notorious tribal warlord, robber, gang-leader during that time and these group of people used such a person as a representative and central figure.
It the same with Buddhism and the Buddha Story, where the Prince abandoning his inheritance to his kingdom was merely a myth.

It is well known the group of imperialists burned all versions of the Quran and promoted only one, supposedly the present one. Somehow a few earlier versions were found to be different as the one that is claimed to be the pristine version from Allah.

Note,
Do Not Blame Muslims! Never!
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=24842&p=370344&hil ... ms#p370344

As for Muslims we cannot blame them as they are first ordinary human beings who naturally have the inclinations to be good people. Muslims as ordinary people will tend to be nice, empathic and helpful to non-Muslims.
It is when certain Muslims get serious that they have no choice but to comply with the commands [in reality are evil acts] by Allah in the Quran so that they will be assured of going to Paradise and avoiding Hell.
I know of and agree with all you said above, i too fear fundementalism (I fear my US christian version as much as the Islamic type overseas).

I pegged you wrong months ago (thought you were an ignorant Islamophobe) - you are an Islamophobe for sure (moreso than I am) - but not ignorant,

and so valid to discuss the problem.

and yes fundementalism is a problem, Islam is not going away, so lets discuss how we can "Reform" it to a more open viewpoint (Sufi-ize) that religion, for the betterment of all here on Earth.

peace and thanks for thoughtful reply Sir.

Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 1795
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:52 am

It is an insult to human and your own intelligence and rationality to use the term "Islamophobe."

A phobia is based on an irrational fear.
Given the evident terrible terror, evils and violent acts the Islamists had committed in the name of their religion and as a divine duty to please God that are justified reasons to have real fear of Islam the religion.

If you do not have any ordinary fear of Islam, I challenge to go to the main square in a city in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, etc. to condemn Islam and prophet Muhammad. You will surely be mobbed and killed instantly in accordance to the commands of the Islamic God as in the Quran.

Recently two Scandinavian girls [presumably leftists or apologists] went camping in Morocco in the belief Islam and its believers are supposedly peaceful. The consequence of their ignorance was both were raped, tortured and killed by Muslims inspired by their religion - Islam.

I have always wanted to visit the pyramids. But due to the real fears of Islam, I will not visit any notorious Muslim majority country or location. Not longer some Vietnamese tourists were killed while visiting the pyramids.

Two American cyclists [naive and stupid] believed all humans are peaceful and do not want to be labeled islamophobes. They were killed by Muslims while cycling throught Tajikistan.

Were the American cyclists killed in Tajikistan naive for traveling there?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyl ... e5bdbf93ce

I suggest you do not use the term 'Islamophobia' which would make you stupid and insulting your own intelligence.

I have a rational and justified fear [wariness, vigilance, apprehension] of Islam the inherently malignant and evil religion.

As such I practice rational critiques of Islam based on facts and evidence.

Therefore I am not Islamophobic.

gaffo
Posts: 2354
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by gaffo » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:15 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:52 am
It is an insult to human and your own intelligence and rationality to use the term "Islamophobe."

A phobia is based on an irrational fear.
Given the evident terrible terror, evils and violent acts the Islamists had committed in the name of their religion and as a divine duty to please God that are justified reasons to have real fear of Islam the religion.

If you do not have any ordinary fear of Islam, I challenge to go to the main square in a city in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, etc. to condemn Islam and prophet Muhammad. You will surely be mobbed and killed instantly in accordance to the commands of the Islamic God as in the Quran.

Recently two Scandinavian girls [presumably leftists or apologists] went camping in Morocco in the belief Islam and its believers are supposedly peaceful. The consequence of their ignorance was both were raped, tortured and killed by Muslims inspired by their religion - Islam.

I have always wanted to visit the pyramids. But due to the real fears of Islam, I will not visit any notorious Muslim majority country or location. Not longer some Vietnamese tourists were killed while visiting the pyramids.

Two American cyclists [naive and stupid] believed all humans are peaceful and do not want to be labeled islamophobes. They were killed by Muslims while cycling throught Tajikistan.

Were the American cyclists killed in Tajikistan naive for traveling there?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyl ... e5bdbf93ce

I suggest you do not use the term 'Islamophobia' which would make you stupid and insulting your own intelligence.

I have a rational and justified fear [wariness, vigilance, apprehension] of Islam the inherently malignant and evil religion.

As such I practice rational critiques of Islam based on facts and evidence.

Therefore I am not Islamophobic.
no dissrespect intended per the term Islamophobe.

i affirm you knowledge of said religion (my post was about those that slam Islam without knowking about it).

I affirm you knowledge of (I still think you are biased - but that is ok in my book for you are not ignorant - so we can "talk about it")

so lets talk!

2.5 billion will not just vanish, so lets talk about how to make that faith not mandate the beheading of Athiests like me.

ok?

that is in my interest personally. not sure what your faith is, but if not Muslim prob in the same boat per Talliban/Whabbi visions of Islam.

I note that ISIS burned the muslim f-16 Jordanian pilot (muslim, but not muslim enough for the troglodites in Syria 3 yrs ago) in the cage.

being burned alive is a horror for anyone - i was repulsed by the act as an Athiest (I hope you could place yourself in that guy's shoes too (I just hope you do not hate Islam so much as to not feel for that guy -the poor pilot).....I appeal to your common humanity (if you are able to have one - after your war on Islam overall).


what can we do to honour the death of that pilot?..................acknowledge islam is here to stay, and strive for a more liberal viewpoint of the muslims themselves - try to champion suffism over wahhabism.

and not paint all muslims as wabbists.

gaffo
Posts: 2354
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by gaffo » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:24 am

lets honour that poor pilot burned alive..........and seek an solution to fudementalism.

ok?


Islam is not going away, so lets discuss how we can make conform more toward peace for the rest of us.

in that sad pilot's name (which i forget - sadly) - but let's make his memory mean something!

ok?

such a horrid way to die ;-(.

gaffo
Posts: 2354
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by gaffo » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:35 am

death by burning is the worst way to die.

can you feel for that guy VA?

asking as one of good conscience human to you.

yes he was a Muslim - but not enough for those the burned him alive.

are you able to feel for that guy - even though he was a muslim?

i ask as one of character, wondering if you have the same (I hope you do and can place yourself in his shoes - and not so blinded by hate of islam to negate your conscience....................)

I'm asking, if you can - and can actually Feel - then i welcome future discussion.

if not, then we have nothing to talk about ;-/.

gaffo
Posts: 2354
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by gaffo » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:20 am

Got your PM VA - i thank you for taking the time, will check your forum reference when i sober up, but in the meantime, do not forsake this forum Sir.

I value discussion and thank you for the PM.

not had many - one from Veg, and another from Amod (moderator - one of two here - since i joined a yr ago) and so thanks for the personal touch, appreciated,

sincere in the above,

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests