Islam for Feminism?

Anything to do with gender and the status of women and men.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 1803
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Islam for Feminism?

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:56 am

Note this video:

The Women's March for Islam (Why Feminists Love Muhammad!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2wxXMahRhM

Therein Nadia Hassan claimed;
"The Quran gives women rights equal to men, really equal!"

This woman dared to lie with a straight face through her teeth.

Note Wood's countered with verses from the Quran in the video.
The Quran [core of Islam] is one of the ideology with the worst misogynistic terms.

User avatar
bahman
Posts: 2077
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by bahman » Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:52 pm

They are unaware of inequality between man and woman. Man has right to beat woman in Islam.

User avatar
Kayla
Posts: 1213
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:31 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by Kayla » Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:29 pm

the quran also forbids female infanticide which was a major piece of progress for its time and place

the way one muslim explained this is that the commandments in the quran are not a straightforward set of rules

rather, we must look at how quran improved the world of its time

and it is a blueprint for similar improvement

so the quran forbade female infanticide and required that women be only beaten lightly - major improvement on 7th century arabia status quo

the commandment is to improve the status quo in similar ways - not firm rules for all eternity

not sure how mainstream this view is among muslims, but it certainly makes sense

it was a muslim lesbian woman married to a non-muslim woman who provided this explanation so this might not be very mainstream interpretation

Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 1803
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:20 am

Kayla wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:29 pm
the quran also forbids female infanticide which was a major piece of progress for its time and place
Infanticide, relatively then is not a very significant issue. Note the contrast. i.e. the 10 commandments that came few thousands years before the Quran was of a must greater improvement in terms of morality. There are many others.
True, the Quran did introduce various improvements for its time and place. However most of the aspect of culture and morality then were so bad, any slight improvement would seem significant.

BUT the problem is, Allah commanded whatever slight improvements and commands in the Quran are to be immutable, i.e. fixed for eternity.
  • Quran 5:3 This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion.
Kayla wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:29 pm
the way one muslim explained this is that the commandments in the quran are not a straightforward set of rules
Wrong!
A Muslim is one who had entered into a covenant [contract] with Allah to comply fully [to the best of one's ability] with Allah's word in exchange for a promise of eternal life in Paradise [with 72 virgins for some].
There is no room for compromise with God's word, i.e. rules, commands, doctrine, etc, as in the Quran [contractual terms].

rather, we must look at how quran improved the world of its time

and it is a blueprint for similar improvement

so the quran forbade female infanticide and required that women be only beaten lightly - major improvement on 7th century arabia status quo
Note my point, the Quran is the immutable words of God and whatever is conveyed 1400 years ago is supposedly final and applicable till all Muslims go to Paradise with eternal life, if not till eternity.

Quran 4:3 used the word 'darb' ["hit" "beat" or "strike"] to deal with the wife.
There is no mentioned of 'beaten lightly' at all.
In the context of the whole Quran which is VERY misogynistic, the term 'darb' is a free for all as far as the man's psychological state is concern.

There is no stopping of a sadistic, psychopathic or anyone to hit, strike or beat their wives to the extreme.
If these Muslim men beat a women till with blue-black marks, bruises and extreme violence as a divine duty, WHO ON EARTH can judge him?? In Islam, only Allah can judge a person's moral acts. But ALLah will not be judging until Judgement Day.
Thus meanwhile SOME Muslim men will continue to beat their wives violently in the belief that God sanction it as a divine duty while no one can judge them based on God's words.

Read this to get more familiar with 'beating wives in Islam'
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Beat_your_Wi ... Quran_4-34

Only man-made laws i.e. secular laws can protect women from violent men or women.
While the Quran [even Bible] is stuck with verses condoning slavery till eternity, all Nations has establish secular laws that abolished Chattel slavery.

Note certain Muslims' jurisprudence has specific conditions for beating one's wife, but these specifications are nevertheless man-made and human interpretations, they are not Allah's DIRECT words as in the Quran.
the commandment is to improve the status quo in similar ways - not firm rules for all eternity

not sure how mainstream this view is among muslims, but it certainly makes sense

it was a muslim lesbian woman married to a non-muslim woman who provided this explanation so this might not be very mainstream interpretation
Make no sense from Allah's commands.
All Muslims who has signed a contract [covenant] with Allah, must comply with the contractual terms in the immutable Quran. There is no compromise except naturally limited.

Muslim-lesbian-woman is a Islamic doctrinal oxymoron.
The Quran [God's words] implicated homosexuality is not permissible and homosexuals must be killed. Note the Story of Noah.

Before Muhammad's time, the tribal people in Mecca were not reported to be misogynistic.
Before Muhammad prophethood at age of 25 Muhammad married his first wife, a much older-woman [40]. She was a successful business woman and obviously dominated him over 25 years.

After Muhammad became a warlord prophet, he invented his own laws to subdue women.
(the Quran was Muhammad's invention, not from any supposedly true God].
  • -He commanded a woman's worth is half of that of a man.
    -He allowed a man to beat their women [not Muhammad hit one of his wife who felt pain].
    -Women are dirty
    -Most of those in Hell are women.
    -women must cover up
    -man can marry 4 but not the women
    -man can have sex with female slaves and not vice-versa
    -etc, etc.
Learned Islam from a Muslim-lesbian-woman??
Nah! definitely confirmation bias.

Educate the Quran and Islam by reading the Quran thoroughly yourself and guided from effective secondary sources.
Example;
https://www.politicalislam.com/

User avatar
Kayla
Posts: 1213
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:31 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by Kayla » Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:36 pm

i have no doubt that you interpretation of Islamic teachings are superior to those of someone who has actually read the quran in its original language from cover to cover

Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 1803
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:20 am

Kayla wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:36 pm
i have no doubt that you interpretation of Islamic teachings are superior to those of someone who has actually read the quran in its original language from cover to cover
Noted the sarcasm.

However the fact is;
I have studied very basic Arabic and Quranic grammar, but there is no critical need to read the Quran in the original Quranic language to understand its actual context from the generic DNA based human perspective.
I refers to more that 50++ English translations of the Quran, various secondary sources, English-Arabic Dictionaries etc.

I have spent many years full time basis researching the Quran down to every critical word and their context of the total 77,449 words in the Quran.
The present Quran is not written in the original Arabic but some version of older classical Arabic.

In addition, since not a Muslim I can read the Quran very objectively without any desperate existential psychological confirmation bias.

dorothea
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:46 pm

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by dorothea » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:36 am

You are making an admirable effort but I fear you are wasting your time. Islam is an affront to reason as well as decency and is arguably a religion without any shred of ethical content. Not only can no moral guidance be found (as is so clear in the case of Moses and Jesus) but the prescriptive nature of such trivialities as prescribed in zakat (on which Saud children waste an entire year of their schooling) is such as to preclude anything that might come close to ethical reflection. (In that respect is suffers from the arid, a-ethical algorithms of Utilitarianism). I have taught many post-grad Muslims from overseas but gave up on the Koran about a third of the way through - nauseated by it's threatening nastiness and (not) amazed that we permit such a thing to be presented as the word of God to children. Many of my Muslims students from Muslim-ruled countries are surprised that we allow hijabs - something that has to be enforced by skin-removing lashing back home. As Aristotle might say, never mind what they say, look at what they do: 53 Islamic states and every one a hell for decent people.

User avatar
Kayla
Posts: 1213
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:31 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by Kayla » Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:36 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:20 am
I have spent many years full time basis researching the Quran down to every critical word and their context of the total 77,449 words in the Quran.
The present Quran is not written in the original Arabic but some version of older classical Arabic.
of course you have

if you had actually paid attention to my post you would have noticed the part where I said that I doubt that the interpretation i was given was especially mainstream

scriptural interpretation not being mainstream does not make it wrong, however

have you ever actually talked to a Muslim woman from a Muslim country?

it is interesting that the whole 'omg Islamic is horrible sexist' comes almost exclusively from males

dorothea
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:46 pm

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by dorothea » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:06 pm

Rubbish. Women in both Saud and Iran are routinely lashed and jailed as you perfectly well know from recent cases. Much the same applies in other Muslim countries. I taught MA students for years - many from Muslim nations. I ran courses for overseas Muslim women and men who had been brutalised - almost always sexually - by invaders from neighbours including Palestinian atrocities against their employers. My university helped one woman escape her family to Canada in the days when no one had heard of Islam and cared less. Thomas Aquinas explained Islam's attraction for violent concupiscent men whose lives were otherwise dull failures. Take the Rawlsian original position test: if you are to be born again tomorrow knowing nothing of your sex, IQ, family, religion or whatever and you could choose one of the 53 Islamic countries or, say, democratic, pluralist patient Israel - which? If you've not seem Maysaloun Hamoud's movie (In Between) do so, and learn a little.

User avatar
Kayla
Posts: 1213
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:31 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by Kayla » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:17 pm

dorothea wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:06 pm
Rubbish. Women in both Saud and Iran are routinely lashed and jailed as you perfectly well know from recent cases. Much the same applies in other Muslim countries. I taught MA students for years - many from Muslim nations. I ran courses for overseas Muslim women and men who had been brutalised - almost always sexually - by invaders from neighbours including Palestinian atrocities against their employers. My university helped one woman escape her family to Canada in the days when no one had heard of Islam and cared less. Thomas Aquinas explained Islam's attraction for violent concupiscent men whose lives were otherwise dull failures. Take the Rawlsian original position test: if you are to be born again tomorrow knowing nothing of your sex, IQ, family, religion or whatever and you could choose one of the 53 Islamic countries or, say, democratic, pluralist patient Israel - which? If you've not seem Maysaloun Hamoud's movie (In Between) do so, and learn a little.
not sure what the referent of rubbish is here

strange you would bring up thomas acquinas who was very much in favor of executing heretics - him condemning islam sounds like pot calling the kettle black

i would not want to be born anywhere in north africa, islamic or not - but from what i know including from primary sources it would not make much difference if i were born there as a muslim or not

that women in islamic - and many other - countries have no resource when it comes to sexual violence is not something anyone here disputes. i am not aware of any islamic teachings that condone sexual harassment, rape, etc. - nothing specifically islamic here. yes, i know, you spent decades studying the evils of islam full time, whatever

Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 1803
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:48 am

Kayla wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:36 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:20 am
I have spent many years full time basis researching the Quran down to every critical word and their context of the total 77,449 words in the Quran.
The present Quran is not written in the original Arabic but some version of older classical Arabic.
of course you have

if you had actually paid attention to my post you would have noticed the part where I said that I doubt that the interpretation i was given was especially mainstream

scriptural interpretation not being mainstream does not make it wrong, however
A Muslim in according to the Quran - the ultimate constitution of Islam - is a person who has entered into a contract/covenant implicitly or explicitly with Allah with a promise of eternal life in Paradise.

Regardless whether it is mainstream or not, the principle is a Muslim must comply with the agreed terms, i.e. stipulated by Allah in the Quran.
Once a person has entered into a contract [covenant] s/he has to complied with the agreed terms by both parties.
There are no favorable provisions for homosexuals, either male or female within the Quran, i.e. the constitution of Islam.
That is why, to please Allah, Muslims throw homosexuals from tall buildings because they know the terms of the contract as a Muslim.

I suggest you read the Quran and understand it thoroughly.
have you ever actually talked to a Muslim woman from a Muslim country?
I have lived in a Muslim majority country for MANY years so I know their feelings from various sides.
it is interesting that the whole 'omg Islamic is horrible sexist' comes almost exclusively from males
You are wrong in this case!
Scan the internet, youtube, facebook, twitter, you will note there are equally as many females condemning the evil and violent nature of the ideology of Islam. Note the popular Wafa Sultan, Brigitte Gabriel, Sarah Haidar, and many others.

Wafa Sultan (Arabic: وفاء سلطان‎; born June 14, 1958) is a medical doctor who trained as a psychiatrist in Syria, and a U.S. author and critic of Muslim society and Islam.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wafa_Sultan
Listen a this video for 10 minutes to get the gist and idea how Islam per se is against women;

Wafa Sultan: "Women in Islam"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOK-F79aRBo

Which rational humane woman would accept the terrible terms assigned for the female in the Quran [note listed above].

It is so obvious and evident SOME Muslims has committed terrible evil and violent acts on non-Muslims and even Muslims deemed as apostates/hypocrites. These evil acts are directly linked to the verses in the Quran and their related texts, the Ahadith. It is common for such evil prone Muslims to justify their evil acts with verses from the Quran, which they took by default as a divine duty to please Allah.

Here is one type of evil acts that involved fatalities and there are many sorts of non-fatal evil and violent acts by SOME Muslims.

Image
Last edited by Veritas Aequitas on Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 1803
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:02 am

Kayla wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:17 pm
dorothea wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:06 pm
Rubbish. Women in both Saud and Iran are routinely lashed and jailed as you perfectly well know from recent cases. Much the same applies in other Muslim countries. I taught MA students for years - many from Muslim nations. I ran courses for overseas Muslim women and men who had been brutalised - almost always sexually - by invaders from neighbours including Palestinian atrocities against their employers. My university helped one woman escape her family to Canada in the days when no one had heard of Islam and cared less. Thomas Aquinas explained Islam's attraction for violent concupiscent men whose lives were otherwise dull failures. Take the Rawlsian original position test: if you are to be born again tomorrow knowing nothing of your sex, IQ, family, religion or whatever and you could choose one of the 53 Islamic countries or, say, democratic, pluralist patient Israel - which? If you've not seem Maysaloun Hamoud's movie (In Between) do so, and learn a little.
not sure what the referent of rubbish is here

strange you would bring up thomas acquinas who was very much in favor of executing heretics - him condemning islam sounds like pot calling the kettle black

i would not want to be born anywhere in north africa, islamic or not - but from what i know including from primary sources it would not make much difference if i were born there as a muslim or not

that women in islamic - and many other - countries have no resource when it comes to sexual violence is not something anyone here disputes. i am not aware of any islamic teachings that condone sexual harassment, rape, etc. - nothing specifically islamic here. yes, i know, you spent decades studying the evils of islam full time, whatever
It is very natural via evolution, for a long time females had been [still are] oppressed and badly treated by men all over the world. It is also very evident in the primate world. But fortunately at present & toward the future, the situation is changing for the better in the non-Islamic environments.

The critical issue here is the terrible treatments against women are sanctioned by an all powerful God as "carved in stone" and commanded to be immutable by Allah, thus applicable till eternity.
Allah in the Quran condones Muslim men to treat their wives and female children and kin badly for any Muslim men who are inclined toward violence.
Note it is estimated 20% of men are violent prone, i.e. that would be 150 million of Muslim men around the world and 1% are said to be psychopathic and sadistic.
Thus as long as there is Islam and Muslims there will be God sanctioned inequalities and violence against women and no human can judge and stop that.

The list of terrible treatment I listed from the Quran is applicable till eternity as long as one is a Muslim.

A good religion is one that do not include any possibility of violence against humans [men and women] and other living things, e.g. Buddhism or even Christianity's love your enemies, and others.

Islam is inherently evil because its has violent elements that are open for sadistic males to feast on violence with the blessing of their Allah as commanded in the Quran.

dorothea
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:46 pm

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by dorothea » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:45 am

strange you would bring up thomas acquinas who was very much in favor of executing heretics - him condemning islam sounds like pot calling the kettle black
i am not aware of any islamic teachings that condone sexual harassment, rape, etc. - nothing specifically islamic here.

Kayla -a pot may call a kettle with justice and accuracy if the kettle is indeed black. (Hitler being a vegetarian doesn't make vegetarianism wrong. ) Aquinas regarded Islam as a heresy but, since he remains the only scholar of Islam there has ever been, his views on its popularity merit attention. That he was himself a hard liner adds weight - in the same way that the opinions of Hobbes, Adam Smith and others (that the native Americans were unimaginably cruel savages) carry more weight because of the cruelty of their own societies with which they made comparison.

Your second point - the innocent and courageous young women in Iran arrested for opposing the regime and destined to be hanged were first raped because Islam forbids the execution of virgins. If it's not in the koran, its in the hadiths though possible not Bukhari.

I understand why some malicious people, for example the British labour party seeking 3 million votes, defend and appease Islam, but I cannot understand why you do. Moses and jesus and Buddha have set ethical standards for all time. What are Islam's ethics? (Serious question I've asked many times and never been answered). It seems to me it is a religion like other obviously bogus enterprises - the Mormons for example.

gaffo
Posts: 2352
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by gaffo » Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:25 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:20 am

Note my point, the Quran is the immutable words of God and whatever is conveyed 1400 years ago is supposedly final and applicable till all Muslims go to Paradise with eternal life, if not till eternity.
kind of off topic, but wish to ask.

do Muslims assume the Koran is the Final Word (I assume they do - as Christians - per their missinterpretation of Revelations - i,e, they assume that work's mandate to not add it means there is cannot be a latter revalation/book from God - when that mandate refers to the work of The Apocalypes itself, and not to other latter revalations God may provide).

i,e, does the Koran explicitly say:

1. there cannot be any addition to this work
2. there cannot be latter works from prophets that also are God's word.

asking you - assuming you know the Koran.

and utterly off topic of thread, sorry.

Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 1803
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Islam for Feminism?

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:49 am

gaffo wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:25 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:20 am

Note my point, the Quran is the immutable words of God and whatever is conveyed 1400 years ago is supposedly final and applicable till all Muslims go to Paradise with eternal life, if not till eternity.
kind of off topic, but wish to ask.

do Muslims assume the Koran is the Final Word (I assume they do - as Christians - per their missinterpretation of Revelations - i,e, they assume that work's mandate to not add it means there is cannot be a latter revalation/book from God - when that mandate refers to the work of The Apocalypes itself, and not to other latter revalations God may provide).

i,e, does the Koran explicitly say:

1. there cannot be any addition to this work
2. there cannot be latter works from prophets that also are God's word.

asking you - assuming you know the Koran.

and utterly off topic of thread, sorry.
It is not assumed by Muslims but rather it is divinely ordained by Allah in the Quran, the Quran itself is the Final Revelation and Muhammad is the Final Prophet.
It is imperative for any Muslim to believe the above, else they will go to HELL.

Not only that the Quran is claiming it is the Final Revelation, the Quran also condemned all existing Holy Texts [Bible, Torah, Gita, etc.] as corrupted and useless.

The above imply your points;
1. there cannot be any addition to this work
2. there cannot be latter works from prophets that also are God's word.
This why the Ahamadiyahs, the Sufis, i.e. the later more human version of Islam are condemned as heretics and are often killed.

Note this;
http://aboutislam.net/counseling/ask-ab ... testament/

The Holy Quran clearly states that the divine guidance of Allah is completed with the revelation of the very last verse revealed in the Quran, which was in Surah 5, verse 3:

{This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion.}

The occasion of this revelation was the last sermon of the prophet, delivered during his last pilgrimage. On this occasion he (peace be upon him) said:

“O people! No prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore O people! And, understand words that I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Quran and the sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray.” (Al-Haythami)

It is evident from these words that:

(a) Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the last prophet.

(b) The Quran, along with the sunnah – which, in fact, is the practical interpretation of the Quran – is the perfected guidance of Allah to mankind.

The Prophet (peace be upon him) has also said:

“…O Allah, be my witness, that I have conveyed your message to Your people.”(Ibn Majah)

And, remember that it was as part of this sermon that the prophet recited to them a revelation from Allah, which he had just received, and which completed and finalized the Quran, for it was the last passage to be revealed (Surah 5, verse 3 – quoted above).

Towards the end of his sermon, the prophet (peace be upon them) asked:

“O people, have I faithfully delivered unto you my message?”

A powerful murmur of assents: “O Allah! Yes!” arose from thousands of pilgrims and the vibrant words “Allahumma na`am” (God! Surely yes…) rolled like thunder throughout the valley.

The prophet raised his forefinger and said:

“O Allah bear witness that I have conveyed your message to Your people.” (Ibn Majah)

In addition, we can read the following verse too in the Quran – Surah 33, verse 40:

{Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the messenger of Allah and the seal of all the prophets. And Allah knows all things.}

Scholars of Arabic language are unanimous in the meaning of the word khaatam(seal). Every mufassir (commentator of the Quran) has translated khaatam to mean final, including Ibn Jarir al-Tabri, Imam Fakhru-din al-Razi, Imam Jalaalu-din Suyooti, and Ibn Kathir.

The commentators have also agreed that anyone who denies that Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is the final and last prophet, is not a Muslim.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest