"Feminism"?

Anything to do with gender and the status of women and men.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
Lacewing
Posts: 4128
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:25 am

Re: "Feminism"?

Post by Lacewing »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:10 pm So what makes us all so certain that everyone, regardless of sex, "race," intelligence, income, culture, age, health, education, wit, accomplishments, actions, lifestyle, morals, popularity, and so on are all in some durable sense unquestionably deserving of "equality"? What demonstrates the belief in "equality" to be rational? On what firm basis do we hold this confident assumption?
I think there are clearly variations between people that do or don't make them suitable for one thing or another. I see a distinction between that and the issue of whether or not they are mis-judged as not deserving of equality (opportunities, treatment, etc.).

If you want to explore why anyone would think someone "unquestionably deserving of equality" -- are you also willing to explore why anyone would think someone unquestionably NOT deserving of "equality"? The latter seems to be the mindset that has cheated and abused all kinds of people for centuries -- so are we going to defend that pattern by forcing people to prove that there has to be a valid basis to think otherwise? Why not question the valid basis for the pattern we've been perpetuating? To use your words: On what firm basis do we hold THAT confident assumption?
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 9228
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: "Feminism"?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Lacewing wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:48 pm If you want to explore why anyone would think someone "unquestionably deserving of equality" -- are you also willing to explore why anyone would think someone unquestionably NOT deserving of "equality"?
Well, rationally speaking, it's the idea of equality needs the justification, not inequality. For in all conceivable metrics, from height, weight, age, sex, intelligence, culture, education, artistic ability, athleticism...and so on, we see that people do not "look" equal. it's not obvious how they are equal. They all seem different in every way. In fact, every one of them looks, on the surface, different from every other. So the automatic assumption would be to treat every person differently.

But egalitarians say, "Treat everybody equally." If they say so, then they need to say what they mean by "equally," and what reasons they have for telling us we should ignore every other obvious surface fact.

Now, the problem is that not even the egalitarians can agree. Some think equality means, "Give everybody the same opportunities," and others say it means, "Give people different opportunities, favouring those we tell you are marginalized." One group wants us to ignore surface differences; the other wants us to take them into consideration in order to privilege those who are not getting their 'fair' share.

So it's not even the case that you have two groups of people, one that thinks people are equal and another that thinks they are not: instead, you have multiple groups, even among the egalitarians, all disagreeing with one another over what "fairness" looks like.

So the justification would be necessary, even assuming every one of us here is a convinced egalitarian.
User avatar
Lacewing
Posts: 4128
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:25 am

Re: "Feminism"?

Post by Lacewing »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:10 pm ...
You use the same approach when you've insisted that it is non-theists who need to prove that there is NOT a god. Whatever YOUR position is, you present your lop-sided arguments to support THAT, putting the conditions/requirements on other people to prove differently... rather than proving anything for yourself. It's very transparent and convoluted... and not worth pursuing.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 9228
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: "Feminism"?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Lacewing wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:19 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:10 pm ...
You use the same approach...
Well, let's make it easy for you.

If you're an egalitarian, or if egalitarianism makes sense to you, you should be able to solve a very simple problem.

I'm a male Somali athlete of 23 years of age, six feet four inches tall, single and heterosexual, educated to the basic standards available in my country. You are (let's say) a lesbian of 55 years of age, wheel-chair bound, five foot two, with six university degrees, three adopted children and a cottage in the Hamptons.

What is the sense in which we can be said to be "equal"?
Skip
Posts: 2553
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:34 pm

Re: "Feminism"?

Post by Skip »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:02 pm
I'm a male Somali athlete of 23 years of age, six feet four inches tall, single and heterosexual, educated to the basic standards available in my country. You are (let's say) a lesbian of 55 years of age, wheel-chair bound, five foot two, with six university degrees, three adopted children and a cottage in the Hamptons.

What is the sense in which we can be said to be "equal"?
If you steal a cell-phone and I steal a cellphone, we both get arrested, and are both entitled to a fair trial.
If you work an 8-hour shift, affixing handles to meat-grinders on an assembly line and get $120 , minus deductions, and I work an 8-hour shift on the adjoining assembly line, affixing handles to coffee grinders, I also get $120, minus the same deductions.
If I can rent an apartment in an uptown high-rise with a standard lease, the landlord will not hesitate to rent an apartment in the same building to you on the same terms.
If you later get a house mortgage of $250,000 with 20% down payment, I can get the same deal when I'm ready to be a homeowner.
If I apply to an extension course at college and get accepted, and you apply with the same qualifications, you also get accepted.
You are not stopped by police for looking at houses on a street any more often than I am.
I can get a driver's license or handgun license or marriage license as easily as you, for the same price, provided only that we both pass the qualifying test.


That's how "equality" works.
User avatar
QuantumT
Posts: 655
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:45 pm
Contact:

Re: "Feminism"?

Post by QuantumT »

Skip wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:16 am Because the equality has been so absent for so long that it needed a movement, just to make people notice that there was something wrong. As soon as equality is established, the movement loses it purpose and ceases to exist.
I'm quite looking forward to a time when no group of people is discriminated-against and there is no more need of movements to fight for anyone's right to be considered a member in good standing of the human race.
But I don't think I'll live that long. I don't think any of you will, either.
I think feminism should move to the middle east, where it's needed...
User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 9157
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re: "Feminism"?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Skip wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:07 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:02 pm
I'm a male Somali athlete of 23 years of age, six feet four inches tall, single and heterosexual, educated to the basic standards available in my country. You are (let's say) a lesbian of 55 years of age, wheel-chair bound, five foot two, with six university degrees, three adopted children and a cottage in the Hamptons.

What is the sense in which we can be said to be "equal"?
If you steal a cell-phone and I steal a cellphone, we both get arrested, and we both a fair trial.
If you work an 8-hour shift, affixing handles to meat-grinders on an assembly line and get $120 , minus deductions, and I work an 8-hour shift on the adjoining assembly line, affixing handles to coffee grinders, I also get $120, minus the same deductions.
If I can rent an apartment in an uptown high-rise with a standard lease, the landlord will not hesitate to rent an apartment in the same building to you on the same terms.
If you later get a house mortgage of $250,000 with 20% down payment, I can get the same deal when I'm ready to be a homeowner.
If I apply to an extension course at college and get accepted, and you apply with the same qualifications, you also get accepted.
You are not stopped by police for looking at houses on a street any more often than I am.
I can get a driver's license or handgun license or marriage license as easily as you, for the same price, provided only that we both pass the qualifying test.


That's how "equality" works.
'Equal' on its own means nothing. Those two people have equal rights. So Immanuel, the 55 year old crippled lesbian with the rainbow family, has the same legal rights as the Somalian heart-throb. They are not 'equal'--they have equal rights. I am sure that secretly Immanuel, the professional academic who has simply 'studied' and never 'done', with his six degrees in the Hamptons, feels that he is a cut above the Somalian with a basic education.
User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 9157
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re: "Feminism"?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

QuantumT wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:18 pm
Skip wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:16 am Because the equality has been so absent for so long that it needed a movement, just to make people notice that there was something wrong. As soon as equality is established, the movement loses it purpose and ceases to exist.
I'm quite looking forward to a time when no group of people is discriminated-against and there is no more need of movements to fight for anyone's right to be considered a member in good standing of the human race.
But I don't think I'll live that long. I don't think any of you will, either.
I think feminism should move to the middle east, where it's needed...
Funny. Women were doing pretty well in the ME until...let me think...how did that all change?

Image

Image

Image
User avatar
Sir-Sister-of-Suck
Posts: 940
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:09 am

Re: "Feminism"?

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:24 pmFunny. Women were doing pretty well in the ME until...let me think...how did that all change?
I seriously hope that's an intentional embellishment on your end.
User avatar
Sir-Sister-of-Suck
Posts: 940
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:09 am

Re: "Feminism"?

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck »

I find it growingly peculiar how you maintain this dichotomy of decrying the PC progressives, while having the constant intent of bringing up a sin of America's past, connecting it to everything. Do you know who else likes to do that?
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 9228
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: "Feminism"?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Skip wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:07 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:02 pm
I'm a male Somali athlete of 23 years of age, six feet four inches tall, single and heterosexual, educated to the basic standards available in my country. You are (let's say) a lesbian of 55 years of age, wheel-chair bound, five foot two, with six university degrees, three adopted children and a cottage in the Hamptons.

What is the sense in which we can be said to be "equal"?
If you steal a cell-phone and I steal a cellphone, we both get arrested, and are both entitled to a fair trial.
If you work an 8-hour shift, affixing handles to meat-grinders on an assembly line and get $120 , minus deductions, and I work an 8-hour shift on the adjoining assembly line, affixing handles to coffee grinders, I also get $120, minus the same deductions.
If I can rent an apartment in an uptown high-rise with a standard lease, the landlord will not hesitate to rent an apartment in the same building to you on the same terms.
If you later get a house mortgage of $250,000 with 20% down payment, I can get the same deal when I'm ready to be a homeowner.
If I apply to an extension course at college and get accepted, and you apply with the same qualifications, you also get accepted.
You are not stopped by police for looking at houses on a street any more often than I am.
I can get a driver's license or handgun license or marriage license as easily as you, for the same price, provided only that we both pass the qualifying test.


That's how "equality" works.
I like the way you think. It makes sense.

But it also means you believe in "equality of opportunity," not "equality of outcome."

In other words, if I understand your position, you're content if the playing field is level for everyone, and everyone gets a chance -- you don't insist that the field must be tilted to favour those who are arbitrarily proclaimed as a privilege caste of the "marginalized," "disadvantaged" or "oppressed."

So you would believe in fair university-entrance standards for everyone, but not in "Affirmative Action" programs. You would believe that the best person should be hired for a job, regardless of his or her gender -- not that a quota should be set up to force "equal representation." You believe that "maternity leave" should be equal to "paternity leave," at least as an offered opportunity. You believe that a person should be judged on the quality of his or her character, and not the colour of his or her skin, to quote MLK.

But not everybody's going to agree with that.
Skip
Posts: 2553
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:34 pm

Re: "Feminism"?

Post by Skip »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:39 am But it also means you believe in "equality of opportunity," not "equality of outcome."
Well, DUH!!
That's what political movements are for: to secure equal rights, equality under the law, equality of opportunity, equal access to public services, equal pay, equal social status.
In other words, if I understand your position, you're content if the playing field is level for everyone, and everyone gets a chance
Finally! That was one reluctant penny.
-- you don't insist that the field must be tilted to favour those who are arbitrarily proclaimed as a privilege caste of the "marginalized," "disadvantaged" or "oppressed."
Just keep tilting this way and that, and watch the vari-coloured marbles roll this way and that, until it levels out and they're all on the same plane.
So you would believe in fair university-entrance standards for everyone, but not in "Affirmative Action" programs.
That is correct - once access to equal quality of primary education and early childhood development has reached the level where no group is starting with one foot across the finish line while another group is three miles back, up to their hips in a bog.
You would believe that the best person should be hired for a job, regardless of his or her gender -- not that a quota should be set up to force "equal representation."
That's right. And you can start the day every segment of society is proportionally represented in all walks of life.
You believe that "maternity leave" should be equal to "paternity leave," at least as an offered opportunity.
Of course.
You believe that a person should be judged on the quality of his or her character, and not the colour of his or her skin,
I have endeavoured to follow that rule, yes.
But not everybody's going to agree with that.
Fuckem.
Last edited by Skip on Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 9157
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re: "Feminism"?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote: Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:14 am I find it growingly peculiar how you maintain this dichotomy of decrying the PC progressives, while having the constant intent of bringing up a sin of America's past, connecting it to everything. Do you know who else likes to do that?
What are you disputing? And it's the past, present, and no doubt the future as well. Do you think it all just happened by accident?
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 9228
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: "Feminism"?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Skip wrote: Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:26 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:39 am But it also means you believe in "equality of opportunity," not "equality of outcome."
Well, DUH!!
That's what political movements are for: to secure equal rights, equality under the law, equality of opportunity, equal access to public services, equal pay, equal social status.
Actually, a lot of them are for privilege, or for the advantage of one group over another. Believing in "equality of opportunity" is actually an extreme minority position, if you take a worldwide and historical view.
But not everybody's going to agree with that.
Fuckem.
So you're not a Feminist, then? Just an egalitarian. That's fine.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 9228
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: "Feminism"?

Post by Immanuel Can »

QuantumT wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:18 pm
I think feminism should move to the middle east, where it's needed...
Boy, that would be a courageous step. And if they were serious about the plight of ALL women, they would.

It makes one wonder why they don't...
Post Reply