If marriages are made in heaven, why do so many of them wind up in hell?

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Philosophy Explorer
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If marriages are made in heaven, why do so many of them wind up in hell?

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:59 pm

Is marriage truly an institution?

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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: If marriages are made in heaven, why do so many of them wind up in hell?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:04 am

When did they let you out?

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Re: If marriages are made in heaven, why do so many of them wind up in hell?

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:16 am

Hobbes' Choice wrote:When did they let you out?
Out of what? I've never been married.

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Greta
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Re: If marriages are made in heaven, why do so many of them wind up in hell?

Post by Greta » Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:22 am

Probably because marriages are made on Earth. Heaven is way too cold and there's not enough air.

In a rapidly changing world individuals must change and adapt quickly, and the faster we all change, the more likely that those changes will slit off in different directions; it's harder to stay in sync. Definitely risk and a spirit of adventure in marriage - a leap of faith and hope to be one of the lucky ones.

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Re: If marriages are made in heaven, why do so many of them wind up in hell?

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:33 am

Greta wrote:Probably because marriages are made on Earth. Heaven is way too cold and there's not enough air.

In a rapidly changing world individuals must change and adapt quickly, and the faster we all change, the more likely that those changes will slit off in different directions; it's harder to stay in sync. Definitely risk and a spirit of adventure in marriage - a leap of faith and hope to be one of the lucky ones.
Which suggests that computer dating can never be 100% risk-free. A good question is that under these circumstances and many other involved factors, what would be the purpose of marriage? (especially since some people get married several times)

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Re: If marriages are made in heaven, why do so many of them wind up in hell?

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:49 am

It may help to understand that marriage seems like evolution to me once you explore its intricacies.

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Re: If marriages are made in heaven, why do so many of them wind up in hell?

Post by ForCruxSake » Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:55 pm

Philosophy Explorer wrote: A good question is that under these circumstances and many other involved factors, what would be the purpose of marriage? (especially since some people get married several times)
I would think that as a society coheres, it makes rules to protect its stability. Marriage is a way to stop men running off from their responsibilities and contributing to the stable growth of society. Women just fall in line with that, as they have done for thousands of years.

In the old days, it was more about good breeding (a quick check for mad aunts in the attic) and as much financial creditability as you could win. It was a matter for parents, or wealthy men, who made the choice, and it happened for life. It still occurs in Asia but, as the world has increasingly moved under the direction of western influence, arranged marriages are declining.

I think our root causes for selection these days are definitely motivated by financial security: we have tax breaks for the married, combined incomes that make like comfortable for both, homes are more affordable and children definitely easier to raise with two parents... but marriage is a leap, and what makes us 'jump the broomstick' (certainly for women) is love (for some just love of money is enough!) What screws marriage up, is love. It's mercurial, with its nature changing over the course of a marriage, and when it's gone... What then? The lack of a solid foundation, built during marriage, is what breaks it up. The heaven bit is the foolish idealism of love, the hell is reality slowly taking over. The lucky few may start off in heaven but as reality descends they manage to keep the ball up in the air.

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Re: If marriages are made in heaven, why do so many of them wind up in hell?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:13 pm

Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:When did they let you out?
Out of what? I've never been married.

PhilX
Out of the INSTITUTION!

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Re: If marriages are made in heaven, why do so many of them wind up in hell?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:16 pm

ForCruxSake wrote:
Philosophy Explorer wrote: A good question is that under these circumstances and many other involved factors, what would be the purpose of marriage? (especially since some people get married several times)
I would think that as a society coheres, it makes rules to protect its stability. Marriage is a way to stop men running off from their responsibilities and contributing to the stable growth of society..
That is NOT why it was designed, and that is not working that way.

Marriage was designed to seize women as chattel to establish legal rights over women and their progeny.

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Re: If marriages are made in heaven, why do so many of them wind up in hell?

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:16 pm

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:When did they let you out?
Out of what? I've never been married.

PhilX
Out of the INSTITUTION!
Graduated college a long time ago.

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Re: If marriages are made in heaven, why do so many of them wind up in hell?

Post by ForCruxSake » Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:22 pm

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
ForCruxSake wrote:
Philosophy Explorer wrote: A good question is that under these circumstances and many other involved factors, what would be the purpose of marriage? (especially since some people get married several times)
I would think that as a society coheres, it makes rules to protect its stability. Marriage is a way to stop men running off from their responsibilities, and contributing to the stable growth of society..
That is NOT why it was designed, and that is not working that way.

Marriage was designed to seize women as chattel to establish legal rights over women and their progeny.
I have to disagree, marriage did not develop simply for the convenience of men.

What father would allow his daughter to be simply 'seized as chattel'? An exchange takes place even in older cultures. A woman is given to a man, by her family, and an exchange of some kind takes place. There's a contract involved. It should benefit the woman, as well as the man, by giving her a provider for her upkeep and having the man legitimise the resulting progeny, to whom his wordly possessions and title will pass on his demise. He could so easily run off and everyone else grab his wordly goods when he dies, without marriage, leaving her and her children out in the cold. A man is tied to the responsibility of taking care of his 'chattel'. What's to stop him from running off as soon as he sees the next best thing? He too is bound by oath when he marries. In Islam they max out at four wives, but few men take up the option. It's too much to be tethered to despite being four times the amount of 'chattels to which he has acquired the rights'.

Granted back in the old days it was easier for a man to get out of it but marriage was always a responsibility, not just a simple way of branding an 'acquisition' that would satisfy his lust and provide him with offspring. He's obligated by the rules of marriage, too, and those rules often develop, as society develops, to prevent the kind of chaos that causes a society's collapse. If men's interests are promoted by a society it's because men are controlling that society but I think the end result is the same thing, core stability for your growing village, tribe or society.

(Apologies if this all seems rather long winded, I'm completely knackered. So tired and lacking the ability to self-edit.)

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Re: If marriages are made in heaven, why do so many of them wind up in hell?

Post by Greta » Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:34 pm

ForCruxSake wrote:A man is tied to the responsibility of taking care of his 'chattel'.
Nice try but I find that men often take loving care of their cars too.

No, women have long been men's chattel throughout history. What you describe is an intermediate system where women are on the threshold of being thought of as somewhat human, but that (via suffrage) was still a very long way off.

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Re: If marriages are made in heaven, why do so many of them wind up in hell?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:07 am

ForCruxSake wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
ForCruxSake wrote:
I would think that as a society coheres, it makes rules to protect its stability. Marriage is a way to stop men running off from their responsibilities, and contributing to the stable growth of society..
That is NOT why it was designed, and that is not working that way.

Marriage was designed to seize women as chattel to establish legal rights over women and their progeny.
I have to disagree, marriage did not develop simply for the convenience of men.
Historically you are bang out of order here.

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