Is it sexist to say women are a mystery?

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Obvious Leo
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Re: Is it sexist to say women are a mystery?

Post by Obvious Leo » Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:25 am

marjoram_blues wrote: Please tell me what the hallmarks of a mass hysteria incident are. And how they relate to the Cologne attacks.
I've already said that I don't have enough information on the Cologne incident to label this specifically as a mass hysteria event. However the fact that the authorities were completely taken by surprise at the ferocity of it is very persuasive evidence, since the signature feature of such incidents is that they seemingly just erupt out of the blue. I'll be curious to find out whether the possibility of this happening had been canvassed by anybody beforehand but until we find this out then your guess is as good as mine.

marjoram_blues
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Re: Is it sexist to say women are a mystery?

Post by marjoram_blues » Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:53 am

Obvious Leo wrote:
marjoram_blues wrote: Please tell me what the hallmarks of a mass hysteria incident are. And how they relate to the Cologne attacks.
I've already said that I don't have enough information on the Cologne incident to label this specifically as a mass hysteria event. However the fact that the authorities were completely taken by surprise at the ferocity of it is very persuasive evidence, since the signature feature of such incidents is that they seemingly just erupt out of the blue. I'll be curious to find out whether the possibility of this happening had been canvassed by anybody beforehand but until we find this out then your guess is as good as mine.
Leo - I was concerned that you were implying that the women's experiences were some kind of a hysterical reaction. Thanks for clarification that this is not the case. Given the information that is already out there, this was organised crime with serious implications for security.
Will talk later. G'night.

Obvious Leo
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Re: Is it sexist to say women are a mystery?

Post by Obvious Leo » Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:37 am

marjoram_blues wrote: Leo - I was concerned that you were implying that the women's experiences were some kind of a hysterical reaction.
I had a feeling that you'd misunderstood my meaning. The hysteria was a property of the perpetrators of the attacks, not of the victims, and I simply forgot that many people associate hysteria with female behaviour. However Freud's exclusive definitions of human behaviour are seldom used in the psycho-social literature these days. Hysterical behaviour is nowadays seen as a gender-neutral term and it is actually men who are more likely to be associated with it in such a mass setting.

A similar thing happened in Sydney only a few years ago when a fight broke out on a beach between a skinhead gang and a Lebanese gang. Within an hour thousands of young people were involved in it and they were flocking to the beach from all over Sydney in order to take part. Hardly any of them knew what the fight was about and even fewer cared. They just somehow got caught up in a weird psychological moment. I'm not suggesting that Cologne is an analogous case but there are certainly some points of similarity.

Skip
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Re: Is it sexist to say women are a mystery?

Post by Skip » Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:05 am

Obvious Leo wrote:
Skip wrote:I have no doubt of the mass frenzy phenomenon, but the targets of such rampages are never random: they are pre-selected by the culture and the socio-political climate of the times.
I have no doubt that this is true but such a pre-selection must not be conflated in any way with an organised conspiracy to undermine the cultural values of whichever society happens to be on the receiving end of it.
Obviously, craziness, whether individual or mob, is not organized. Nor does it require conspiracy. But the cultural values are certainly in play. Whether you have a planned raid on the castle or a spontaneous torch-and-pitchfork situation, you can pretty well predict which monster will get lynched in which country.
In my view it's far better to portray the guilty as just ordinary shitheads and gangsters rather than look for a common thread which probably doesn't exist. In fact most of these very shitheads are probably more scared at the thought of having to explain themselves to their mothers than they are of the police. When you get them one-on-one ALL bullies are cowards.
That's as may be, but won't prevent future incidents. The underlying resentment and anxiety won't be addressed or alleviated; the attitudes won't be adjusted... and there is a good chance that violent incidents of any kind add to the potential power of the very kind of administration that will make things worse.

Obvious Leo
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Re: Is it sexist to say women are a mystery?

Post by Obvious Leo » Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 am

Skip wrote: there is a good chance that violent incidents of any kind add to the potential power of the very kind of administration that will make things worse.
This is the appeal to caution which I was making. Throwing petrol on to a fire (a la Donald Trump) is not generally regarded as the most effective means of dousing it. Luckily Merkel is not Trump.

Skip
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Re: Is it sexist to say women are a mystery?

Post by Skip » Fri Jan 08, 2016 6:58 am

Luckily, nobody else is Trump, so it will only take one.... er



never mind

marjoram_blues
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Re: Is it sexist to say women are a mystery?

Post by marjoram_blues » Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:10 am

Obvious Leo wrote:
marjoram_blues wrote: Leo - I was concerned that you were implying that the women's experiences were some kind of a hysterical reaction.
I had a feeling that you'd misunderstood my meaning. The hysteria was a property of the perpetrators of the attacks, not of the victims, and I simply forgot that many people associate hysteria with female behaviour. However Freud's exclusive definitions of human behaviour are seldom used in the psycho-social literature these days. Hysterical behaviour is nowadays seen as a gender-neutral term and it is actually men who are more likely to be associated with it in such a mass setting.

A similar thing happened in Sydney only a few years ago when a fight broke out on a beach between a skinhead gang and a Lebanese gang. Within an hour thousands of young people were involved in it and they were flocking to the beach from all over Sydney in order to take part. Hardly any of them knew what the fight was about and even fewer cared. They just somehow got caught up in a weird psychological moment. I'm not suggesting that Cologne is an analogous case but there are certainly some points of similarity.
OK Leo.
First off - re you had a feeling that I'd misunderstood your meaning. 'I had a feeling' that you would respond like this. In fact, I did not misunderstand your meaning, I was looking for you to explain what you meant by 'mass hysteria' and why your first reaction was that the Cologne attacks were similar. Earlier you wrote:
It strikes me that the outrageous behaviour in Cologne might be an example of a different sort of phenomenon altogether. Football spectator violence, Los Angeles riots, London riots, Rwandan massacres etc are NOT expressions of uncontrolled human instinct. They are expressions of a collective madness which can overcome large groups of individuals when their personal ethical frame of reference is overwhelmed by frenzy.
The final sentence ( emphasis added) could have been interpreted as applying to the groups of women involved. They were the targets overwhelmed by the 'frenzy' of sex attacks by large, organised groups of men. So, it was right for me to question your exact meaning. Even if it meant that I would receive a reply which has somewhat of a put-down nature to it. I was not associating hysteria with female behaviour nor coming from an intellectual framework. However, it is clear that there remains a certain negative attitude to female victims of sexual crime and offences which needs to be addressed. I see evidence that there was a neglect on the part of the police and the incident being glossed over; the initial police assessment was that there was a 'relaxed atmosphere'. No hysteria here then. Just political panic that the events would not be good for Merkel.

Also, you cut down a quote of mine which if given in full would show that I understood you were talking of the perpetrators:
'Gangs of men are made up of individuals; they are organised. And yes, criminal behaviour should and will be pursued. I'm not sure that this is an example of mass hysteria, erupting from a trivial incident'.
I don't believe that the events in Cologne and other German cities are indicative of a 'weird psychological moment'.
However, I take your point about the potential for politicians to use this to suit their own ends. It is possible to induce the kind of 'mass hysteria' related to mass public near-panic reactions.

My concern is that the police couldn't - or wouldn't - handle it. Too many attacks and crimes happening all at the same time. What if instead of being organised crime involving sexual attacks terrorising women, it had been a major terrorist attack. We would all have heard about it, immediately.

This is not a one-off of the kind you illustrated. This is the type of planned chaos which terrorist groups look to perpetrate. And gain from. There is real concern about security.

You reply to Skip's: 'the targets of such rampages are never random: they are pre-selected by the culture and the socio-political climate of the times'
I have no doubt that this is true but such a pre-selection must not be conflated in any way with an organised conspiracy to undermine the cultural values of whichever society happens to be on the receiving end of it.
Women are an easy first target of such organised groups of men. Given recent events in Europe, it is not a great stretch to view this as part of the attack on our cultural values.

As we both agree, this is a complicated situation to be viewed from all perspectives possible. The sexist aspect is only one, but I warn against it not being taken seriously enough. In this country, there was a cover-up involving gangs of men from a different culture who systematically sexually abused young girls. People should not be afraid to tackle the serious sexist attitudes and criminality due to fears of being labelled 'racist'.

Talking about labels, glad to hear that you identify as a 'feminist' - interesting that you continued, 'Men are vain and females can outsmart them because of this'. Is this 'feminism' ? Or sexism. Or trivialising by generalisation...

Obvious Leo
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Re: Is it sexist to say women are a mystery?

Post by Obvious Leo » Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:59 am

marjoram_blues wrote:They were the targets overwhelmed by the 'frenzy' of sex attacks by large, organised groups of men.
I'd prefer to wait until further enquiries have been conducted before forming a judgement about how organised these groups of men truly were. If you're right, and this was a deliberately orchestrated and planned attack, then my off-the-cuff analysis is obviously wrong and this is indeed a terrorist incident.
marjoram_blues wrote: I see evidence that there was a neglect on the part of the police and the incident being glossed over;
Once again I'd prefer to await further information. However the notion that some police were reluctant to regard this incident as seriously as they should have is by no means atypical of police behaviour everywhere.
marjoram_blues wrote:Talking about labels, glad to hear that you identify as a 'feminist' - interesting that you continued, 'Men are vain and females can outsmart them because of this'. Is this 'feminism' ? Or sexism. Or trivialising by generalisation...
It's trivialising by generalisation. Even card-carrying feminists should be willing to celebrate the fact that men and women respond differently to different behavioural situations, even though it is also true that for every sweeping generalisation there will always be plenty of conspicuous exceptions.

marjoram_blues
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Re: Is it sexist to say women are a mystery?

Post by marjoram_blues » Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:17 am

Obvious Leo wrote:
marjoram_blues wrote:They were the targets overwhelmed by the 'frenzy' of sex attacks by large, organised groups of men.
I'd prefer to wait until further enquiries have been conducted before forming a judgement about how organised these groups of men truly were. If you're right, and this was a deliberately orchestrated and planned attack, then my off-the-cuff analysis is obviously wrong and this is indeed a terrorist incident.
marjoram_blues wrote: I see evidence that there was a neglect on the part of the police and the incident being glossed over;
Once again I'd prefer to await further information. However the notion that some police were reluctant to regard this incident as seriously as they should have is by no means atypical of police behaviour everywhere.
marjoram_blues wrote:Talking about labels, glad to hear that you identify as a 'feminist' - interesting that you continued, 'Men are vain and females can outsmart them because of this'. Is this 'feminism' ? Or sexism. Or trivialising by generalisation...
It's trivialising by generalisation. Even card-carrying feminists should be willing to celebrate the fact that men and women respond differently to different behavioural situations, even though it is also true that for every sweeping generalisation there will always be plenty of conspicuous exceptions.
You are very wise to wait and see exactly what the investigations conclude. However, it is not a case of either/or. Organised raiding groups of men, with sex and crime on their mind, are not the same as deadly terrorist groups but there may well have been infiltrating fundamentalists with overarching terrorist aims in mind. That is: to create chaos and fear; to attack the way we live our lives. Our hard-earned freedom is being put at risk. And that is the problem.
OK, I think I've done this to death. Who is conducting the 'further enquiries'...and will they have an underlying agenda...
Yes, let's wait and see. But not to see which of us is right or wrong. I'm not interested in that. Simply trying to understand. Thanks for the conversation.

Walker
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Re: Is it sexist to say women are a mystery?

Post by Walker » Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:59 pm

Intellectual passion is most eloquent and attractive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_lCrccZG3o

Dalek Prime
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Re: Is it sexist to say women are a mystery?

Post by Dalek Prime » Fri Jan 08, 2016 6:29 pm

Walker wrote:Intellectual passion is most eloquent and attractive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_lCrccZG3o
Does that make mental masturbation 'sexy'? Just asking....

Walker
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Re: Is it sexist to say women are a mystery?

Post by Walker » Fri Jan 08, 2016 7:49 pm

:)

Hi there.

She has an interesting bio. When it’s time to speak, she makes it count. I bet the rest of her life is like that, too. When she speaks, that is exactly where she is supposed to be. No wishy washy. Quite admirable, to bring all of one's being to bear upon a moment. Very sexy. She's a bit of a steamroller, though.

Walker
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Re: Is it sexist to say women are a mystery?

Post by Walker » Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:31 pm

Brigitte devours another muddled thinker.

Brigitte Gabriel:Islamist Ideology Forbids Assimilation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nahwegIDy18

mickthinks
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Re: Is it sexist to say women are a mystery?

Post by mickthinks » Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:40 pm

She's impressive if you find that kind of sophistry impressive. I guess it depends on which side your sympathies lie and whether you allow them to get the better of your reason.
Walker wrote:When it’s time to speak, she makes it count.
I thought she got hold of the wrong idea and rode off on it as if she were leading a cavalry charge. And clearly many in her audience thought she was a hero and would have followed her over the hill if they could. They have the excuse that they are ordinary Americans who don't know any better. You have no such excuse, Walker.
Last edited by mickthinks on Thu Sep 01, 2016 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Walker
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Re: Is it sexist to say women are a mystery?

Post by Walker » Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:09 pm

mickthinks wrote:She's impressive if you find that kind of sophistry impressive. I guess it depends on which side your sympathies lie and whether you allow them to get the better of your reason.
Walker wrote:When it’s time to speak, she makes it count.
I thought she got hold of the wrong idea and road off on it as if she were leading a cavalry charge. And clearly many in her audience thought she was a hero and would have followed her over the hill if they could. They have the excuse that they are ordinary Americans who don't know any better. You have no such excuse, Walker.
Besides the empty lettuce, any red meat hiding under the truffle quips? Take your time, I’ll be back sometime to hear some composed intelligence, of which I think you’re capable without being further coaxed.

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