A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Anything to do with gender and the status of women and men.

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promethean75
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by promethean75 »

capitalism's discursive materialistic logocentric diachronic hegenomy on human culture. humans are considered machines of reproduction who's identities are determined by that function. but the truth is we are all one. and tho i come before u a man, i am also every woman
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Goodness me. Women are getting really strong. And those penises come in handy when they get the urge to rape men.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/woman-who ... H4TG4F76A/

''The first attack happened in 2016 when Seu stalked a man for a kilometre after he left a bar in the Octagon in central Dunedin following an All Blacks test against Wales.

She dragged him into an alleyway and threw him into a brick wall, stunning him in the process, before pulling down his pants and sexually violating him.

The man was able to escape but Seu chased him and forced him down in the grounds of a church where she raped him a second time.

After being released on bail, she then went on to indecently assault two male flatmates.''

Thank goodness there are people like sculptor around to ensure that female rapists with penises go to women's prisons. Men just aren't safe around them.
Last edited by vegetariantaxidermy on Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Skepdick
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by Skepdick »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:27 am Goodness me. Women are getting really strong. And those penises come in handy when they get the urge to rape men.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/woman-who ... H4TG4F76A/

''The first attack happened in 2016 when Seu stalked a man for a kilometre after he left a bar in the Octagon in central Dunedin following an All Blacks test against Wales.

She dragged him into an alleyway and threw him into a brick wall, stunning him in the process, before pulling down his pants and sexually violating him.

The man was able to escape but Seu chased him and forced him down in the grounds of a church where she raped him a second time.

After being released on bail, she then went on to indecently assault two male flatmates.''

Thank good there are people like sculptor around to ensure that female rapists with penises go to women's prisons. Men just aren't safe around them.
Is there a point in there? In any gendered languages a spoon has a gender too.

In Russian a spoon (ложка) is a "she".
In German a spoon (der löffel) is a "he".

And did you know that just as recently as 10 years ago it was legally impossible for any vagina-holder to commit rape in South Africa because of how "rape" was defined (non-consensual penetration of penis into vagina).
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:27 am Goodness me. Women are getting really strong. And those penises come in handy when they get the urge to rape men.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/woman-who ... H4TG4F76A/

''The first attack happened in 2016 when Seu stalked a man for a kilometre after he left a bar in the Octagon in central Dunedin following an All Blacks test against Wales.

She dragged him into an alleyway and threw him into a brick wall, stunning him in the process, before pulling down his pants and sexually violating him.

The man was able to escape but Seu chased him and forced him down in the grounds of a church where she raped him a second time.

After being released on bail, she then went on to indecently assault two male flatmates.''

Thank goodness there are people like sculptor around to ensure that female rapists with penises go to women's prisons. Men just aren't safe around them.
At least male prisoners will be safe from this predatory woman.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Wow. It's amazing how strong women are when they have a penis.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-65097013


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Iwannaplato
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by Iwannaplato »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:36 am To the people who think gender is entirely a social construct, the existence of trans people raises some interesting philosophical contradictions.
I think it might be useful to look at the issue as a struggle between two feminisms and add in the example of misgendering.

Misgendering, it seems, has become an instance not merely of making a mistake, but an incident with a victim.

In old feminism, you might have the misgendering of men and women because they look like the sex they do not identify with AND which they were not born as.

So, the butch lesbian, dressed in what were traditionally men's clothes, with short hair and traditionally masculine posture, voice and movements, gets mistaken for a man. Of course this can still happen. But note: the problem then was that if you moved outside of traditional demeanor and roles for you sex, you were a problem and old feminism attacked this problematizing by saying that women should not have to be in a certain box as far as these characteristics. This continues, of course, and new feminists would, I hope defend her right to be that way.

Now we have transpersons being mistaken for the sex they were born with. In new feminism or at least new wokism, misgenendering, it seems even if it is not intentional, is an incident with a victim. Here the person SHOULD be recognized as clearly a woman BECAUSE they fit the traditional garb and movements and hair of the biological sex they are aiming at but were not born as.

You should recognize me as a woman, look how I am dressed. I am wearing make up. I have clearly taken steps to have the proper appearance for my true gender.

So, we have two expectations that sit uneasily with each other. 1) don't limit people, don't assume gender because both sexes can carry themselves, dress, move, interact in all ways, including those not traditionally those of their biological sex or their gender. 2) Recognize through this particular set of cues (garb, makeup, hair) that I clearly want to be seen as [man or woman] and if you don't then you are doing me social harm.
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by Flannel Jesus »

Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:42 pm2) Recognize through this particular set of cues (garb, makeup, hair) that I clearly want to be seen as [man or woman] and if you don't then you are doing me social harm.
What's really annoying is people who "identify" as a particular gender without making any effort whatsoever to signal that visually.

Like on Twitter I've come across a trans man, allegedly, whose pictures are all of this relatively attractive apparent-woman with big tits, wearing clothes that very clearly deliberately accentuate their feminine features, tl including pictures in lingerie, they have long hair, wear makeup - basically every visual signal they give says "I'm a woman" but their bio says "he/him".

The mental effort I would have to put in to stop myself from referring to this person as a "her" is, in my opinion, huge. And, what does it mean to identify as a man if you aren't interesting in doing ANYTHING, at all, as a man would. You're not interested in appearing like a man, speaking like a man, engaging in traditionally masculine hobbies, etc.

If there is no area of life where this person is acting "like a man", then what does it even mean for this person to "identify as a man"? Identify HOW? It's just a label with no reference to anything outside of the label? Like a blue sticky note that just says "blue" on it, and you can label things as "blue" - even if the thing isn't blue, if I've put this sticky note on it, call it "blue", and the label "blue" doesn't actually refer to anything other than the label itself...
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Trajk Logik
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by Trajk Logik »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:57 am What does that even mean 'Gender is a social construct'?? Please explain.
Well, a social construct is an agreement/expectation of members of a particular social group about how all members should behave. So an example of 'gender is a social construct' would be that the members of a social group expect members of a particular sex to wear dresses and make-up and another wear pants and not wear make-up. Gender would be an agreement about how the sexes should behave in a particular society, NOT an individual feeling a person has. Gender would be a feature of a society, NOT and individual. An individual feeling would be the anti-thesis of the expectations of the group, so here lies the contradiction of this mass delusion western society has about gender. Is it a social construct or an individual feeling?
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Trajk Logik
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by Trajk Logik »

Skepdick wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:02 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:01 am
Skepdick wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:59 am
What is it that you don't understand? Please explain.

You have a vagina. Fine.
You have two X chromosomes. Fine.
You ovulate and menstruate. Fine.
You can fall pregnant and give birth. Fine.
You can provide an infinite list of facts/properties and features about yourself. Fine.

But what makes you a "woman"?
Umm, just what you listed? Actually just the second one would have been fine.
So having two X chromosomes makes you a woman? Why?

Surely having two X chromosomes makes you someone who has two X chromosomes?
You created a slippery slope argument because you could make the same case for chromosomes. What makes something a chromosome, a vagina, a woman, a planet, a star, etc.? Maybe you're confusing the map with the territory here, but for efficient communication to occur we need to use terms that embody the things we are talking about. Do you talk in definitions or the terms that embody those definitions?
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Trajk Logik
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by Trajk Logik »

Iwannaplato wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 11:08 am
Flannel Jesus wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:49 am Do you personally think that gender is entirely a social construct?
No, I don't.
Let me throw some stuff out that may help clarify my position.
I think the old ideas of what a man is and a woman is were limited.
I think it has been good, in general, that we have opened up the options for personality, temperment, jobs, interests, clothing and so on for boys and girls, men and women. I would hope that no one thinks they are really the other sex because of feelings, interests, etc. that don't seem to fit the role of man or woman.
That said, I do think that some people are not at home in the body they are born with. IOW I am sort of a dualist. So, even if society allows them to be in the body they have exactly as they want to be, to purue interests, dress the way they want, have the personality they have without judgment, some people will feel they are not in the right body. Not simply they don't like their body but, for want of a more abstract general term, their body does not match their soul or who they are. Those people are truly trans.

I think a problem today is, for example, a lot of young gay people are going to think they are trans, because one side of the Left is pushing a model that has women and men quite different from each other. While at the same time another portion of the Left is telling them that there is no difference. This is, I am sure, confusing for people who really are trans. But I am more concerned about children starting hormone blockers thinking that they must be trans and need a new body because they 'feel like a women' or 'feel like a man'. We don't let them vote or drink but somehow they can know enough to decide to block estrogen and get their breasts removed, for example. To distinguish between, I don't feel like a traditional woman and this is not the right body for me in several key ways.
All you've done is try to define an ill-defined word, "gender" with another ill-defined word, "soul". If gender is not just another name for biological sex, then I don't understand how it is being used or what someone means when they use it any other way except as a synonym for biological sex.

What is gender? What is a soul? What is a god? A lot of society's mass delusions are based on ill-defined or undefined words. Participants in these mass delusions also share in how they respond to those that question the delusion - referring to them as bigots, haters, or sinners.

Free speech and thought are the enemy of mass delusions, which is why it is so dangerous for people in power to share in these delusions as they will limit free speech and thought.
Last edited by Trajk Logik on Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Trajk Logik
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by Trajk Logik »

Skepdick wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:50 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:13 pm I agree totally about the woke left being full of contradictions, and that saying that out loud in some company unfairly labels you as "against us - because you're clearly not with us", where "with us" means agreeing unquestionably with everything wokies are supposed to believe. It's infuriating. And alienating. And probably creates magats.
What is it with this dichotomous way of thinking?

If you aren't a woman then you are a man.
If you aren't a man then you are a woman.
If you aren't woke then you are maga.
If you aren't maga then you are woke.

Why does everything have to be so binary?
Exactly. There are positions that are not left or right, or behaviors that are not masculine or feminine. But when a trans person claims that they actually are a woman or a man they are reinforcing binary genders. They should say that they are neither a man or a woman and start their own sports leagues and have their own bathrooms.
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by Skepdick »

Trajk Logik wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:21 pm You created a slippery slope argument because you could make the same case for chromosomes. What makes something a chromosome, a vagina, a woman, a planet, a star, etc.?
Then lets slide along. Shall we?
Trajk Logik wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:21 pm Maybe you're confusing the map with the territory here,
No. I am explicitly pointing out that you are doing that.
Trajk Logik wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:21 pm but for efficient communication to occur we need to use terms that embody the things we are talking about.
Sure thing. What's wrong with the terms "you" and "me" ?
Trajk Logik wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:21 pm Do you talk in definitions or the terms that embody those definitions?
Neither. I employ speech acts for whatever purpose.

What's the purpose of defining you as a "man" or "woman"?
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by Skepdick »

Trajk Logik wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:22 pm Exactly. There are positions that are not left or right, or behaviors that are not masculine or feminine. But when a trans person claims that they actually are a woman or a man they are reinforcing binary genders. They should say that they are neither a man or a woman and start their own sports leagues and have their own bathrooms.
The entire language of "claims" is misguided here. In fact pulling the philosophy card in context makes you part of the problem.

A person finds themselves born into a world.

They get bullied and kicked out of the bathrooms labeled "women" AND they get bullied and kicked out of the bathrooms labelled "men".
They piss outside - they get arrested and bullied some more.

Where should they piss? When did you have to start your own bathrooms?

Not only can they not use the fucking bathrooms - they also can't use the fucking language now?

Man! Woman! I don't give a fuck what you call me - WHERE SHOULD I FUCKING PISS?!?!?

Should they host hold it in until we finish philosophising about the problem?
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by Iwannaplato »

Trajk Logik wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:22 pm All you've done is try to define an ill-defined word, "gender" with another ill-defined word, "soul".
I've gotten misunderstood here by more than one person so it's probably my lack of clarity. The topic is about a contradiction in the woke community. I am not making a case for souls. Nor am I explaining 'gender.' I am not asking people to use that word or whatever concept I intend with it. My point was that a monist, in this case generally a physicalist, has a problem accepting that transpersons have the wrong birth body. I do not have this problem because my metaphysics leaves room for this. I don't think a physicalist's metaphysics does. That was why I brought up my belief, to contrast it with the physicalist position. Not to replace it, but to make it clearer what I think the physicalist problem ought to be with transpersons who say their body is not right for them.

So, why physicalism? Well, because wokism in general goes with a physicalist model. They may not use that term or even 'materialist', but I think generally, with exceptions of course, they are physicalists and also monists. Bringing in the latter is redundant but points to the problem with 'this is not the right body for me.' Who is this me and what are they made of?
Free speech and thought are the enemy of mass delusions, which is why it is so dangerous for people in power to share in these delusions.
What's 'freedom'? What's thought? If we're going to focus on ill-defined words, we could start with those. Though perhaps in another thread.
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by Trajk Logik »

Skepdick wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:25 pm
Trajk Logik wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:21 pm You created a slippery slope argument because you could make the same case for chromosomes. What makes something a chromosome, a vagina, a woman, a planet, a star, etc.?
Then lets slide along. Shall we?
No thanks. I don't participate in logical fallacies.
Skepdick wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:25 pm
Trajk Logik wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:21 pm Maybe you're confusing the map with the territory here,
No. I am explicitly pointing out that you are doing that.
There's a difference between confusing the map with the territory and using the map to navigate the territory. What makes the map (word) useful if it doesn't in some way represent the territory (definition)?
Skepdick wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:25 pm
Trajk Logik wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:21 pm but for efficient communication to occur we need to use terms that embody the things we are talking about.
Sure thing. What's wrong with the terms "you" and "me" ?
Nothing. You're the one with the issue using terms, not me. What makes you a "you" and not a "me"? May I suggest the answer as "the rules of the English language"? Or, in the case of the map and territory, the legend of the map.
Skepdick wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:25 pm
Trajk Logik wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:21 pm Do you talk in definitions or the terms that embody those definitions?
Neither. I employ speech acts for whatever purpose.
The only purpose to use words is to communicate something, even if it's not to the person you are actually talking to, but to others reading your words.
Skepdick wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:25 pm What's the purpose of defining you as a "man" or "woman"?
For the purpose of communicating to others that do not know me how to spot me in a crowd of women. Also for mating purposes, I like to know what I'm taking home for a romantic night.
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