Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Vitruvius wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:35 am
Vitruvius wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:44 pm I imagine you're aware the suicide rate among trans people is significantly higher than the average.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:29 pmThe highest, I understand. Apparently, the only comparable group that had their rate of suicide was Jews under Hitler. But it doesn't go down after surgery either, apparently...still around 45 % report suicidal ideation or self-harm. So whatever is making them do it, it's not the lack of the procedure, nor is it the lack of public acceptance, since black males (who are purportedly discriminated against) have the lowest suicide rate, even below white males.
Caught this this morning:

Children face 'agonising' waits for mental health care
By Nick Triggle
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58565067

I don't know why there isn't a mental health counsellor in every school. Maybe like a Psychology post grad job; young adults might relate better to kids, and it gives the aspiring counsellor a job in their field, so they gain some experience. And the kids get immediate access to mental health counselling - without the enormous costs to the NHS. Win, win, win!
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:29 pmWhat's doing it is a mental illness...body dysmorphic disorder. These people are chronically unhappy, chronically unreconciled to their bodies, and chronically self-destructive. They are mentally ill, and they need our help. "Normalizing" their pain is not help.
I agree. I could just write that after every part of your post. Instead I've been thinking about the far more complex environment children face today; than the one I was raised in. Political correctness was in its infancy when I was at school, and back then - they only went so far as 'don't discriminate on the basis of arbitrary characteristics.' And that was fine. Live and let live. Good rule of thumb. But now, it's gone way beyond that - because the left have inverted identity politics, and now actively propagandise on behalf of minority interests - in an attack on the so called white male patriarchy; they've made whiteness, maleness and straightness problematic - while celebrating diversity!
Dr Evans states that gender dysphoria is often transitory - it goes away with a bit of time and therapy, but the lefties are already in there - making the disorder permanent with drugs and politically correct affirmation.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:29 pmAnd that's the cruelty that hides under all this "trans-rights" talk. The woke don't want to help sufferers of dysmorphic disorder, far less relieve them -- heavens, no -- they want to keep them and use them as an opportunity to virtue signal, and what happens to them be damned.Using other people is what Lefties do most.
Again, we are of one mind. DYK, there are around 1000 arrest related deaths in the US per year, from over 10 million arrests. 32% of those are black people. 42% white people. That's a failure rate of around 0.01% - in a country where people carry guns. That demonstrates incredible professionalism on the part of police - but in order to spike an election (IMO) the left made out like there's some kind of racist genocide being committed by the police. BLM is blatant leftist manipulation; forcing people to demonstrations of political correctness at election time.

The left is in trouble though; in the US and the UK. They've been abandoned by the white working class people they were set up to represent; and cannot counter, disagree with, or therefore control the marriage of an inverted identity politics with moral righteousness. They've created a ratchet effect; a holier than thou ideology - where the noose can only tighten for fear of being called racist, sexist, homophobic etc, twitter mobbed, de-platformed and threatened, no matter how mad an idea - like gender self identification, they can only agree.
Could you define 'the left' for the sake of clarity? You could define 'the right' while you are about it.

Which side of the political spectrum does 'logic, reason and scientific evidence' fall into?
I've always voted 'left' BECAUSE it has historically been (until fairly recently) the logical, reasonable side. The 'other' side never made any logical sense to me. As it is, they still do a much better job than their 'conservative' opposition, and both sides are increasingly infected with PC nuttery.
To call rabid wokism 'the left' is as stupid as saying that because cats are mammals then all mammals must be cats.
It's fucking infuriating the way an insane fringe has come to define the entire left wing spectrum (led and fueled by American moronism).
Do you think that extreme far-right Nazi supremacist groups define the entire 'conservative' voting public?

Thanks in advance.
Vitruvius
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by Vitruvius »

Vitruvius wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:35 am...the left have inverted identity politics...
uwot wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:20 amAs a matter of interest, where does 'the left' begin in your opinion? For Mr Can it's somewhere to the right of Adolf Hitler because, after all, his party were National Socialists. May I also remind you that it was Mr Can who, in the absence of any examples must have invented the identity of parents who convince their
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:33 pm...pre-pubescent child that he/she needs to be mangled surgically and poisoned with hormones because the parent wants to feel "open-minded"; which is the only true rationale behind harming a child in this way.
uwot wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:20 am"The only true rationale". As you say, Mr Can
Vitruvius wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:44 pm...must be really fucking smart!
I imagine you've heard of the Dunning Kruger effect. There are people who are simply incapable of recognising intelligence. They are not intelligent enough to be able to envision the heights of intellect towering over them - and talking with these people, they will pick at spelling and grammar, and any little argumentative point they might win - because they think that's going to win them the argument. When truly intelligent people talk together, they let such things slide - and speak to the bigger picture.

You've repeatedly demanded PROOF of Immanuel's conjecture; from him and me, simply because I agree. It's not that I can prove what happens in the privacy of other people's homes, and nor do I demand proof. Why? Because it's not that kind of argument. In psychological terms, it's a behaviourist argument, implying inward rationale from outward appearance.

I also imagine you've heard of ad hominems, and Godwin's Law, and on that note goodbye!
Belinda
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by Belinda »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:02 pm The wokie position is rife with contradictions. On the one hand they claim that gender is a 'fluid' social construct and that you can be any gender you want to be or 'feel like', yet on the other hand they are citing baboons as proof that if we don't conform with gender stereotypes then we must have the 'wrong body'. Make up your brain cell.
Baboons, dogs, and humans have the same basic anatomical symmetry as each other and like many other animals and plants. Baboons , dogs, and humans otherwise resemble each other including (like all mammals) the psychological mothering response. Baboons. dogs, and humans also learn a lot from experience.

Humans differ from all other known species in one important characteristic. The domesticated canine bitch will teach her pups the basics of how to behave themselves in some human's house and thus is an example of culture transmissable through generations. However human cultures are vastly different not by kind but by degree.

Human cultures were conserved through successive generations by word of mouth and then by writing and then electronically. Human cultures are hugely more complex than those of any dogs or baboons who as far as we can know are motivated more by biological instinct than by learned behaviours.
Therefore in the important area of sexual reproduction human biological instincts have been smothered by layers of cultural beliefs and practices. It is these cultural beliefs and practices that influence untutored minds to conform to sexual stereotypes. (Sexual stereotypes are often called 'genders'.)
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:24 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:02 pm The wokie position is rife with contradictions. On the one hand they claim that gender is a 'fluid' social construct and that you can be any gender you want to be or 'feel like', yet on the other hand they are citing baboons as proof that if we don't conform with gender stereotypes then we must have the 'wrong body'. Make up your brain cell.
Baboons, dogs, and humans have the same basic anatomical symmetry as each other and like many other animals and plants. Baboons , dogs, and humans otherwise resemble each other including (like all mammals) the psychological mothering response. Baboons. dogs, and humans also learn a lot from experience.

Humans differ from all other known species in one important characteristic. The domesticated canine bitch will teach her pups the basics of how to behave themselves in some human's house and thus is an example of culture transmissable through generations. However human cultures are vastly different not by kind but by degree.

Human cultures were conserved through successive generations by word of mouth and then by writing and then electronically. Human cultures are hugely more complex than those of any dogs or baboons who as far as we can know are motivated more by biological instinct than by learned behaviours.
Therefore in the important area of sexual reproduction human biological instincts have been smothered by layers of cultural beliefs and practices. It is these cultural beliefs and practices that influence untutored minds to conform to sexual stereotypes. (Sexual stereotypes are often called 'genders'.)
What's a 'sexual stereotype' and who calls it 'gender'? And why should I read your speil when you obviously don't bother to read my comments?
Last edited by vegetariantaxidermy on Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Vitruvius
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by Vitruvius »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:40 am
Could you define 'the left' for the sake of clarity? You could define 'the right' while you are about it.

Which side of the political spectrum does 'logic, reason and scientific evidence' fall into?
I've always voted 'left' BECAUSE it has historically been (until fairly recently) the logical, reasonable side. The 'other' side never made any logical sense to me. As it is, they still do a much better job than their 'conservative' opposition, and both sides are increasingly infected with PC nuttery.
To call rabid wokism 'the left' is as stupid as saying that because cats are mammals then all mammals must be cats.
It's fucking infuriating the way an insane fringe has come to define the entire left wing spectrum (led and fueled by American moronism).
Do you think that extreme far-right Nazi supremacist groups define the entire 'conservative' voting public?

Thanks in advance.
I live in the UK, and speak principally to my own society. That so, I can define the left in terms of personal experience of growing up in the north of England, a deprived area after the mines were closed in the 1980's, and being taken every week to the Labour club. That Labour Party don't exist anymore. The Party my grandfather's built has been subverted - and turned against the very people who built it. I'm not only person who thinks this. Read 'Despised' by Paul Embry.

In the same terms, the right have become far more moderate. When I grew up the Union Jack was a symbol of the National Frount; a right wing, violently racist organisation. Not any more. That side of right wing politics is mostly expunged; brexit aside, the right have disassociated from nutters, while the left have been taken over by them.
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Vitruvius wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:37 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:40 am
Could you define 'the left' for the sake of clarity? You could define 'the right' while you are about it.

Which side of the political spectrum does 'logic, reason and scientific evidence' fall into?
I've always voted 'left' BECAUSE it has historically been (until fairly recently) the logical, reasonable side. The 'other' side never made any logical sense to me. As it is, they still do a much better job than their 'conservative' opposition, and both sides are increasingly infected with PC nuttery.
To call rabid wokism 'the left' is as stupid as saying that because cats are mammals then all mammals must be cats.
It's fucking infuriating the way an insane fringe has come to define the entire left wing spectrum (led and fueled by American moronism).
Do you think that extreme far-right Nazi supremacist groups define the entire 'conservative' voting public?

Thanks in advance.
I live in the UK, and speak principally to my own society. That so, I can define the left in terms of personal experience of growing up in the north of England, a deprived area after the mines were closed in the 1980's, and being taken every week to the Labour club. That Labour Party don't exist anymore. The Party my grandfather's built has been subverted - and turned against the very people who built it. I'm not only person who thinks this. Read 'Despised' by Paul Embry.

In the same terms, the right have become far more moderate. When I grew up the Union Jack was a symbol of the National Frount; a right wing, violently racist organisation. Not any more. That side of right wing politics is mostly expunged; brexit aside, the right have disassociated from nutters, while the left have been taken over by them.
I still couldn't vote 'neo-liberal' though. Actually that side has become far more loathesome here, whereas traditionally here the two sides of the spectrum only differed in a few areas--otherwise being pretty similar. The differences have definitely become a lot more pronounced.
Notice how with this pandemic countries have become more 'socialist' because that's the only way it can work.
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by Belinda »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:35 am
Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:24 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:02 pm The wokie position is rife with contradictions. On the one hand they claim that gender is a 'fluid' social construct and that you can be any gender you want to be or 'feel like', yet on the other hand they are citing baboons as proof that if we don't conform with gender stereotypes then we must have the 'wrong body'. Make up your brain cell.
Baboons, dogs, and humans have the same basic anatomical symmetry as each other and like many other animals and plants. Baboons , dogs, and humans otherwise resemble each other including (like all mammals) the psychological mothering response. Baboons. dogs, and humans also learn a lot from experience.

Humans differ from all other known species in one important characteristic. The domesticated canine bitch will teach her pups the basics of how to behave themselves in some human's house and thus is an example of culture transmissable through generations. However human cultures are vastly different not by kind but by degree.

Human cultures were conserved through successive generations by word of mouth and then by writing and then electronically. Human cultures are hugely more complex than those of any dogs or baboons who as far as we can know are motivated more by biological instinct than by learned behaviours.
Therefore in the important area of sexual reproduction human biological instincts have been smothered by layers of cultural beliefs and practices. It is these cultural beliefs and practices that influence untutored minds to conform to sexual stereotypes. (Sexual stereotypes are often called 'genders'.)
What's a 'sexual stereotype' and who calls it 'gender'? And why should I read your speil when you obviously don't bother to read my comments?
You should read my spiel because it is brief, and it contains attractive material about cuddly animals.

It is worth differentiating gender and sex like it's worthwhile differentiating culture and biology.
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:44 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:35 am
Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:24 am

Baboons, dogs, and humans have the same basic anatomical symmetry as each other and like many other animals and plants. Baboons , dogs, and humans otherwise resemble each other including (like all mammals) the psychological mothering response. Baboons. dogs, and humans also learn a lot from experience.

Humans differ from all other known species in one important characteristic. The domesticated canine bitch will teach her pups the basics of how to behave themselves in some human's house and thus is an example of culture transmissable through generations. However human cultures are vastly different not by kind but by degree.

Human cultures were conserved through successive generations by word of mouth and then by writing and then electronically. Human cultures are hugely more complex than those of any dogs or baboons who as far as we can know are motivated more by biological instinct than by learned behaviours.
Therefore in the important area of sexual reproduction human biological instincts have been smothered by layers of cultural beliefs and practices. It is these cultural beliefs and practices that influence untutored minds to conform to sexual stereotypes. (Sexual stereotypes are often called 'genders'.)
What's a 'sexual stereotype' and who calls it 'gender'? And why should I read your speil when you obviously don't bother to read my comments?
Y
It is worth differentiating gender and sex like it's worthwhile differentiating culture and biology.
Why?
Can you define 'gender' then? (and saying it's 'just something you think you 'feel' 'won't cut it I'm afraid). Why do you think women are asked at scans if they want to know the 'gender' of the baby? I suppose they won't be allowed to ask it like that any more, because it might 'offend' the 'gender non-specific'. :roll:
Last edited by vegetariantaxidermy on Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by Belinda »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:45 am
Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:44 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:35 am

What's a 'sexual stereotype' and who calls it 'gender'? And why should I read your speil when you obviously don't bother to read my comments?
Y
It is worth differentiating gender and sex like it's worthwhile differentiating culture and biology.
Why?
Because if we can discover the cause of some troubling event we might be able to stop similar happening again. Is the cause of body dysmorphia cultural or biological?
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:48 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:45 am
Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:44 am
Y
It is worth differentiating gender and sex like it's worthwhile differentiating culture and biology.
Why?
Because if we can discover the cause of some troubling event we might be able to stop similar happening again. Is the cause of body dysmorphia cultural or biological?
Is schizophrenia cultural or biological?

''Gender dysphoria: A concept designated in the DSM-5 as clinically significant distress or impairment related to a strong desire to be of another gender, which may include desire to change primary and/or secondary sex characteristics. Not all transgender or gender diverse people experience dysphoria.''

Notice how they use the word 'gender' rather than 'sex'. So if 'gender' doesn't in fact exist, then what's the problem?
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by Terrapin Station »

Vitruvius wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:39 pm What part of, "I don't care what consenting adults get up to in the privacy of their own lives and bedrooms" - is confusing to you?
So, the first sentence of my first post to you about this was, "You should be able to let people do their own thing publicly, too," right?
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by Belinda »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:50 am
Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:48 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:45 am

Why?
Because if we can discover the cause of some troubling event we might be able to stop similar happening again. Is the cause of body dysmorphia cultural or biological?
Is schizophrenia cultural or biological?
It is an interesting question. I asked a practising psychiatrist that sometime in the 1990s. She said they the main therapy is chemical so that means she'd have said it was biological i.e. caused by g biochemical imbalance. I did not then ask her if her patients also got psychotherapy. IMO both approaches are good for helping people who can suffer badly from this horrible disease.Similarly with bipolar disorder.

Body dysmorphia does not present as so terribly urgent as schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. In which case the cultural approach at least is less drastic than surgical or chemical invasions.
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by Vitruvius »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:44 am I still couldn't vote 'neo-liberal' though. Actually that side has become far more loathesome here, whereas traditionally here the two sides of the spectrum only differed in a few areas--otherwise being pretty similar. The differences have definitely become a lot more pronounced.
Notice how with this pandemic countries have become more 'socialist' because that's the only way it can work.
I take it you're in the US - and it's always been the case that your politics is more right wing than ours. I think it's a consequence of McCarthyism in the early 1950's, that your Democrats are about where our Conservatives are. Your whole political spectrum is shifted to the right by the anti-communist purges of the McCarthy era. I'm not sure I could vote for your right wing either; particularly given the Trump era environmental record - which wasn't just bad, but catastrophically regressive.

I don't think there's anything inherently 'socialist' about responses to the pandemic, because it's a crisis situation. Ideologies are not designed with crises in mind; they define norms under normal circumstances, and when the hit shits the fan - all bets are off. What's done is what's necessary to get back to normal; whatever that may be. To claim that lockdown, jabs and financial support - are socialist measures is really to suggest that socialism is merely anti-capitalism. Anytime capitalism has a problem - look, they've gone socialist. No. Doing what's necessary to get back to normal is not ideologically left or right; it's pragmatism.

Here, in my view, Starmer earned Labour a lot of credibility by not opposing Johnson's government on the measures they put in place for Covid. He was criticised furiously by his own party, but they can't see beyond the end of their nose most of them. It went down well with the public I think, to see cross party cooperation in a time of crisis. The worst line he could have adopted is the one you express - using the crisis to prosecute political differences while people are dying - all of which brings us back to approaches to climate change! 'Have less, pay more, tax this, stop that' - isn't going to win them any points. Magma energy - as the basis of a prosperous sustainable future, shouldn't be ideological either. It's a crisis, and seeking an adequate solution is simple pragmatism.
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by Vitruvius »

Vitruvius wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:39 pm What part of, "I don't care what consenting adults get up to in the privacy of their own lives and bedrooms" - is confusing to you?
Terrapin Station wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:00 pmSo, the first sentence of my first post to you about this was, "You should be able to let people do their own thing publicly, too," right?
No. Strictly speaking the first sentence was re: puberty blockers - no parental consent. Followed by your name and the date and time. Why do you ask?
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Re: Puberty blockers - no parental consent.

Post by uwot »

Vitruvius wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:10 amI imagine you've heard of the Dunning Kruger effect.
Indeed.
Vitruvius wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:10 amThere are people who are simply incapable of recognising intelligence. They are not intelligent enough to be able to envision the heights of intellect towering over them - and talking with these people, they will pick at spelling and grammar, and any little argumentative point they might win - because they think that's going to win them the argument.
I'm sure we have all met our share of those.
Vitruvius wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:10 amWhen truly intelligent people talk together, they let such things slide - and speak to the bigger picture.
How lovely.
Vitruvius wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:10 amYou've repeatedly demanded PROOF of Immanuel's conjecture; from him and me, simply because I agree.
No. I asked for evidence and as someone able to recognise the towering intellect of Mr Can, it shouldn't trouble you to recognise the difference.
Vitruvius wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:10 amIt's not that I can prove what happens in the privacy of other people's homes, and nor do I demand proof. Why? Because it's not that kind of argument. In psychological terms, it's a behaviourist argument, implying inward rationale from outward appearance.
What outward appearance of which parents? You are free to conjecture or agree with whoever you will, but inventing misanthropic characters and then saying they represent "the only true rationale behind harming a child in this way" is not the product of a towering intellect.
Vitruvius wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:10 amI also imagine you've heard of ad hominem...
I have. Here's an example:
Vitruvius wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:10 amI imagine you've heard of the Dunning Kruger effect.
Vitruvius wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:10 am...and Godwin's Law, and on that note goodbye!
I have, but here are the towering intellect's own words:
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:41 pm It's Socialist. National Socialist. That's what Nazi means.

So it's Leftist.
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