Toxic Femininity
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Re: Toxic Femininity
The most important point to note is that aggression, even to the level of sociopathy, is held up by many as an ideal male behaviour.
As far as I am aware, no one has ever suggested that bitchiness of the kind being discussed here is an ideal female trait that young girls should be induced to admire and model.
As far as I am aware, no one has ever suggested that bitchiness of the kind being discussed here is an ideal female trait that young girls should be induced to admire and model.
Re: Toxic Femininity
I dunno. Half the leading ladies in the golden age of Hollywood would qualify. Like male aggression, it can be seen as strength and just as some of the hard of thinking look up to, ooh, I dunno; Donald Trump for example, so too some people admire Margaret Thatcher or Madonna say. Some people just take advantage of others with whatever qualities they possess. Most people are mostly quite nice though.mickthinks wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 12:18 pmAs far as I am aware, no one has ever suggested that bitchiness of the kind being discussed here is an ideal female trait that young girls should be induced to admire and model.
- Immanuel Can
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Re: Toxic Femininity
I'm not surprised you say that. Males can be criticized ad nauseam today. But females..."Touch thou not!"vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 10:35 am For once I agree with Mick. Pointless misogynistic garbage.
The problem, of course, is that turtling on this issue leaves all women at the mercy of "toxic femininity," if such exists. The female subculture that torments them all from time to time is not to be criticized, examined, questioned or even talked about, it seems. So their voices of complaint simply fall on deaf ears.
But we're here to question. So if you don't think the feminine can ever be toxic, you're free to hold that opinion, of course. No one's going to "make you wrong" for asserting it. However, it's abundantly apparent that not every woman's experience is going to accord with that.
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Re: Toxic Femininity
When a man carries a child and gives birth, then let's talk about physical strength and endurance. If a woman doesn't hit the muzzle and doesn't carry 100 kilograms, this doesn't mean that she is weak.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 2:25 pmHello, Bea...nice to meet you.BeatriceMom wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 12:53 pmFor men, everything is much simpler. Men do not smile in the face and do not pour shit behind their backs. Men are more straightforward and therefore it is easier for them to resolve issues of mutual hostility - it is extremely rare for men to hypocritically pretend friendship. In most cases, if the company is dominated by women, then this is a real serpentarium and an interweaving of intrigue. And, of course, women often more painfully and exaggerately perceive the fact that someone does not like them.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 3:25 am Okay, let's try this.
My female friends have often said to me, "You're so lucky to be a man. You have no idea how brutal girls are to each other." In fact, I've never met a woman who doesn't have "horror stories" about how she's been treated, at one time or another, by other women.
So should we suppose they're lying or exaggerating for effect, or that they're trying to say there are some behaviours in the feminine realm that are toxic?
I have found your descriptions echoed in the expressed experience of many, many women. And I believe them. I don't think they're exaggerating the case at all. But not having their experiences personally, I'm less than qualified to say for sure. Thank you for your insights, and for sharing your personal experience on this.
A "serpentarium." Nice turn of phrase. And yes, I do think that women feel more keenly than men do the slights and scorns of other women. I don't doubt that the shame and humiliation it causes them is real. And personally, I have found that you have to be more careful about female colleagues than male ones; the male one's will often just "call you out behind the woodshed," so to speak, if they don't like you: but then the matter is settled. Women tend to work more subtly, more long-term, and with a surprising durability of animus. It seems to me they do tend to resort to a kind of character assassination or ego destruction in regard to the other women they dislike, and many try it on men as well. Maybe this is the other side of physical dominance; that women, being less physically powerful, are inclined to resort to other tactics...I can't say for sure.
I guess a good question is what feminine traits we would NOT want to see replicated in males...that might be what "toxic femininity" would be.
In men, I don't like excessive emotionality and hysteria at the time when you need to get together and make a decision. There was an experience of relationships with an absolutely weak-willed man and in these relationships, I felt like a man, because I had to decide everything myself.
- Immanuel Can
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Re: Toxic Femininity
Yeah, I get that.BeatriceMom wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 1:16 pm In men, I don't like excessive emotionality and hysteria at the time when you need to get together and make a decision. There was an experience of relationships with an absolutely weak-willed man and in these relationships, I felt like a man, because I had to decide everything myself.
Even men don't tend to like men who behave like that, so maybe that's universal. Nobody likes a weak, hysterical man, it seems.
Do you think "emotionality and hysteria" would be part of this "toxic femininity" package? Would it be fair to say that women who are "emotional and hysterical" are just as deplorable as men who exhibit these traits are (not only to women but to other men as well)?
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Re: Toxic Femininity
This is a terrible and toxic manifestation in both sexes. it's just that among women it is more common and is perceived as "the norm", because many women are not blamed for this, referring such tantrums to "female weakness."Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 1:39 pmYeah, I get that.BeatriceMom wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 1:16 pm In men, I don't like excessive emotionality and hysteria at the time when you need to get together and make a decision. There was an experience of relationships with an absolutely weak-willed man and in these relationships, I felt like a man, because I had to decide everything myself.
Even men don't tend to like men who behave like that, so maybe that's universal. Nobody likes a weak, hysterical man, it seems.
Do you think "emotionality and hysteria" would be part of this "toxic femininity" package? Would it be fair to say that women who are "emotional and hysterical" are just as deplorable as men who exhibit these traits are (not only to women but to other men as well)?
- Immanuel Can
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Re: Toxic Femininity
So in your experience, part of "toxic femininity" (not of healthy femininity, of course) would be "tantrums" and "female weakness," then? Or would it be the "lack of accountability" for those, that you would say is really part of "toxic femininity"? Or both?BeatriceMom wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 1:46 pmThis is a terrible and toxic manifestation in both sexes. it's just that among women it is more common and is perceived as "the norm", because many women are not blamed for this, referring such tantrums to "female weakness."Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 1:39 pm Do you think "emotionality and hysteria" would be part of this "toxic femininity" package? Would it be fair to say that women who are "emotional and hysterical" are just as deplorable as men who exhibit these traits are (not only to women but to other men as well)?
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Re: Toxic Femininity
mick: no one has ever suggested that bitchiness of the kind being discussed here is an ideal female trait that young girls should be induced to admire and model.
uwot: Half the leading ladies in the golden age of Hollywood would qualify.
I think you've missed my point, though I can't see exactly where. Hollywood leading ladies are not ideals of the feminine. They merely play them in films.
uwot: Half the leading ladies in the golden age of Hollywood would qualify.
I think you've missed my point, though I can't see exactly where. Hollywood leading ladies are not ideals of the feminine. They merely play them in films.
Re: Toxic Femininity
It's true that no one here has described bitchiness as an ideal feminine trait, but that's a sample of six or seven, and I very much doubt our small sample would agree on ideal feminine traits. It's moot anyway if they can only be portrayed by actresses, and do not inhere in any real character. Mr Can is just doing his usual dumb as a shovel 'The bible/William Lane Craig/Jordan Peterson says x, therefore x is objectively and universally true'. I just don't think it is anyone's business to decide what another person should think is ideal. I gather some men are prepared to pay a lot of money to women who treat them, in my view, atrociously. Still, whatever floats your boat.mickthinks wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 3:50 pm mick: no one has ever suggested that bitchiness of the kind being discussed here is an ideal female trait that young girls should be induced to admire and model.
uwot: Half the leading ladies in the golden age of Hollywood would qualify.
I think you've missed my point, though I can't see exactly where. Hollywood leading ladies are not ideals of the feminine. They merely play them in films.
- FlashDangerpants
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Re: Toxic Femininity
When he gets going on the gender stuff Can is normally trying to work a bait and switch. In this case the obvious progression is to get somebody to agree with this toxic feminity thing so that he can move onto how equally bad it is that women also drink beer and fight in the street or fuck for mere pleasure like men do (because of the 60s and the Demonic LEFT and Overton Windows or something). Then he can move onto the idealised role of the woman in his saintly society as a rule of the mean thing halfway between this toxic feminity and all that nasty modern evasion of traditional gender roles.uwot wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 4:21 pmIt's true that no one here has described bitchiness as an ideal feminine trait, but that's a sample of six or seven, and I very much doubt our small sample would agree on ideal feminine traits. It's moot anyway if they can only be portrayed by actresses, and do not inhere in any real character. Mr Can is just doing his usual dumb as a shovel 'The bible/William Lane Craig/Jordan Peterson says x, therefore x is objectively and universally true'. I just don't think it is anyone's business to decide what another person should think is ideal. I gather some men are prepared to pay a lot of money to women who treat them, in my view, atrociously. Still, whatever floats your boat.mickthinks wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 3:50 pm mick: no one has ever suggested that bitchiness of the kind being discussed here is an ideal female trait that young girls should be induced to admire and model.
uwot: Half the leading ladies in the golden age of Hollywood would qualify.
I think you've missed my point, though I can't see exactly where. Hollywood leading ladies are not ideals of the feminine. They merely play them in films.
He's already done a spiel at least once on this forum that patriarchy is an evil leftist myth and that women were both better off and happier when they were property of their husbands used for manufacturing offspring and pies. His perversion is for demure waifs who are pregnant most of the time and submissive all of the time. Or "healthy feminity" as he is dubbing it.
I vote that we just sit back and wait to see if he can work his suave charms on this Beatrice person. She just cracked open the natural gender roles thing with that bit about men with girly emotions, so that should keep him busy for a while.
- vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Toxic Femininity
It's not a word I use lightly, and only with its actual meaning. Your dislike of women comes through loud and clear and has done in many posts and threads by you. You're free to dislike whoever you choose, just don't try to dress it up as something else. You are probably the most dishonest and hypocritical person on this site.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 1:03 pmI'm not surprised you say that. Males can be criticized ad nauseam today. But females..."Touch thou not!"vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 10:35 am For once I agree with Mick. Pointless misogynistic garbage.
The problem, of course, is that turtling on this issue leaves all women at the mercy of "toxic femininity," if such exists. The female subculture that torments them all from time to time is not to be criticized, examined, questioned or even talked about, it seems. So their voices of complaint simply fall on deaf ears.
But we're here to question. So if you don't think the feminine can ever be toxic, you're free to hold that opinion, of course. No one's going to "make you wrong" for asserting it. However, it's abundantly apparent that not every woman's experience is going to accord with that.
Re: Toxic Femininity
You're probably right. My money's on Beatrice being more of a man than Mr Can.FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 6:23 pmI vote that we just sit back and wait to see if he can work his suave charms on this Beatrice person. She just cracked open the natural gender roles thing with that bit about men with girly emotions, so that should keep him busy for a while.
- vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Toxic Femininity
That's pathetic. So women who make all their own decisions are more like men?BeatriceMom wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 1:16 pmWhen a man carries a child and gives birth, then let's talk about physical strength and endurance. If a woman doesn't hit the muzzle and doesn't carry 100 kilograms, this doesn't mean that she is weak.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 2:25 pmHello, Bea...nice to meet you.BeatriceMom wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 12:53 pm
For men, everything is much simpler. Men do not smile in the face and do not pour shit behind their backs. Men are more straightforward and therefore it is easier for them to resolve issues of mutual hostility - it is extremely rare for men to hypocritically pretend friendship. In most cases, if the company is dominated by women, then this is a real serpentarium and an interweaving of intrigue. And, of course, women often more painfully and exaggerately perceive the fact that someone does not like them.
I have found your descriptions echoed in the expressed experience of many, many women. And I believe them. I don't think they're exaggerating the case at all. But not having their experiences personally, I'm less than qualified to say for sure. Thank you for your insights, and for sharing your personal experience on this.
A "serpentarium." Nice turn of phrase. And yes, I do think that women feel more keenly than men do the slights and scorns of other women. I don't doubt that the shame and humiliation it causes them is real. And personally, I have found that you have to be more careful about female colleagues than male ones; the male one's will often just "call you out behind the woodshed," so to speak, if they don't like you: but then the matter is settled. Women tend to work more subtly, more long-term, and with a surprising durability of animus. It seems to me they do tend to resort to a kind of character assassination or ego destruction in regard to the other women they dislike, and many try it on men as well. Maybe this is the other side of physical dominance; that women, being less physically powerful, are inclined to resort to other tactics...I can't say for sure.
I guess a good question is what feminine traits we would NOT want to see replicated in males...that might be what "toxic femininity" would be.
In men, I don't like excessive emotionality and hysteria at the time when you need to get together and make a decision. There was an experience of relationships with an absolutely weak-willed man and in these relationships, I felt like a man, because I had to decide everything myself.
- Immanuel Can
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Re: Toxic Femininity
Ad hominem, and untrue, of course. But what did I expect?
Well, JP doesn't say you have to believe in "toxic femininity." And when you rejected the idea without even exploring it, I accepted that from you. That's hardly unkind. But the possibility is certainly worth discussing, whether or not you agree.
There will be no "cancel culture" here today, thanks.
It's interesting to me, though, that you appear so anxious about this topic that you desperately want to collapse it into a conventional rant against men....or character assassination, or some other deflection.
Maybe Bea's comment about the lack of "accountability" is really part of the problem here: it seems we cannot even talk about it in a calm and equitable fashion. It's just too un-PC, perhaps.
- vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Toxic Femininity
It's hardly an 'ad hominem'. Your hatred of women oozes transparently through the screenImmanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 8:08 pmAd hominem, and untrue, of course. But what did I expect?
Well, JP doesn't say you have to believe in "toxic femininity." And when you rejected the idea without even exploring it, I accepted that from you. That's hardly unkind. But the possibility is certainly worth discussing, whether or not you agree.
There will be no "cancel culture" here today, thanks.
It's interesting to me, though, that you appear so anxious about this topic that you desperately want to collapse it into a conventional rant against men....or character assassination, or some other deflection.
Maybe Bea's comment about the lack of "accountability" is really part of the problem here: it seems we cannot even talk about it in a calm and equitable fashion. It's just too un-PC, perhaps.