The Insidious Power of Pronoun Discrimination

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: The Insidious Power of Pronoun Discrimination

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:55 pm

Walker wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:49 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:34 pm
Then we'll just end up arguing over nouns. This person doesn't self-identify as 'human'.
Use names. Chris, Pat, Gayle, Jean, and so on.

Rather than say, surely she went to the store, say surely Shirley went to the store. Names instead of pronouns.
Exactly. There is nothing wrong with simply using their name (but the guy was obviously determined to make a political statement and draw attention to himself).

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Re: The Insidious Power of Pronoun Discrimination

Post by Walker » Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:58 pm

There's always more to it.

One of the parties is a publicity hound.
Maybe even, flamboyantly so.

Besides, you can’t ban pronouns unless you’re a totalitarian.

Eliminating them is simply an agreed-upon precision with language, when clarity is paramount.

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Greta
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Re: The Insidious Power of Pronoun Discrimination

Post by Greta » Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:12 am

Nick_A wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:58 am
Greta wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:43 pm
Some of the comments here are shockingly ignorant for a philosophy forum. Normal for Facebook and Twitter for people to blather on without knowing ANYTHING at all about what they are talking about, but it's sad and embarrassing on a philosophy forum.

All of the research regarding human diversity of the last half century is seemingly just thrown out of the window here and we return to the early 1950s before Christine Jorgensen hit the headlines. The brain studies showing differing brain structures according to gender identity are completely disregarded.

People here apparently don't realise not everything that is real is visible. Kant would be weeping in his grave to see what "philosophy" has come to.
You just figured that out? ... Objective human meaning is found above Plato's divided line and yes Kant was well aware of it.
Yes, there's bigger fish to fry than hassling inbetweeners for being inbetween in a society that demands that people be one thing or the other.

I would rather more evidence before figuring that meaning is objective or not, but gatekeeping strangers is pointless. Better to let sleeping dogs lie than to pointlessly risk contracting rabies.

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Re: The Insidious Power of Pronoun Discrimination

Post by Nick_A » Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:25 am

Greta wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:12 am
Nick_A wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:58 am
Greta wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:43 pm
Some of the comments here are shockingly ignorant for a philosophy forum. Normal for Facebook and Twitter for people to blather on without knowing ANYTHING at all about what they are talking about, but it's sad and embarrassing on a philosophy forum.

All of the research regarding human diversity of the last half century is seemingly just thrown out of the window here and we return to the early 1950s before Christine Jorgensen hit the headlines. The brain studies showing differing brain structures according to gender identity are completely disregarded.

People here apparently don't realise not everything that is real is visible. Kant would be weeping in his grave to see what "philosophy" has come to.
You just figured that out? ... Objective human meaning is found above Plato's divided line and yes Kant was well aware of it.
Yes, there's bigger fish to fry than hassling inbetweeners for being inbetween in a society that demands that people be one thing or the other.

I would rather more evidence before figuring that meaning is objective or not, but gatekeeping strangers is pointless. Better to let sleeping dogs lie than to pointlessly risk contracting rabies.
If you think I've ever invited secular growls and righteous indignation before, they would be nothing compared to the reactions I would get if I ever posted this thread: "Is the Concept of the Traditional Marriage a necessary and distinct value for a Free society to Flourish?

High school and college students are in the process of changing from boys and girls into men and women. Their essential energies must be recognized so they can become themselves. There is nothing "wrong with the"inbetweeners" you mentioned. I m just saying that it is essential for the natural differences between men and women be recognized to produce a meaningful traditional marriage and healthy children who receive both the elementary male (yang) and female (yin) energies to become balanced adults.

If a school rules that students should decide what they are during the formative years it defeats the goal of a balanced education. During the formative years gender must be defined by the sex organs. Education should include the value of gender differences. To deny essential differences is psychologically damaging. If after they graduate they decide to have a sex change operation then do so. During their school years IMO pronouns must refer to their sex organs for the benefit of recognizing the essential differences between yin and yang within human being..

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Greta
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Re: The Insidious Power of Pronoun Discrimination

Post by Greta » Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:31 am

Nick_A wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:25 am
Greta wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:12 am
Nick_A wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:58 am


You just figured that out? ... Objective human meaning is found above Plato's divided line and yes Kant was well aware of it.
Yes, there's bigger fish to fry than hassling inbetweeners for being inbetween in a society that demands that people be one thing or the other.

I would rather more evidence before figuring that meaning is objective or not, but gatekeeping strangers is pointless. Better to let sleeping dogs lie than to pointlessly risk contracting rabies.
If you think I've ever invited secular growls and righteous indignation before, they would be nothing compared to the reactions I would get if I ever posted this thread: "Is the Concept of the Traditional Marriage a necessary and distinct value for a Free society to Flourish?

High school and college students are in the process of changing from boys and girls into men and women. Their essential energies must be recognized so they can become themselves. There is nothing "wrong with the"inbetweeners" you mentioned. I m just saying that it is essential for the natural differences between men and women be recognized to produce a meaningful traditional marriage and healthy children who receive both the elementary male (yang) and female (yin) energies to become balanced adults.
I think these differences are not only recognised, but lionised. I think that part of the problem is the way humans so often wildly exaggerate our sex differences. Women's weakness is emphasised by clothes that make you and your feet look small, with legs bound and jammed up by tight skirts and mobility largely hobbled by ridiculously unhealthy shoes.

The false metonymies of womanhood are too often held up as what women actually are and this is liable to confuse the young. When women are de-fetishised, de-objectifies and recognised not as helpless bits of muffin (which invites weak boys who feel helpless to identify) but people capable of equal contributions who just happen to be, on average, better than men at keeping biota healthy while men are on average better at looking at that biota's mechanical and chemical qualities, then we might see less disturbed inter- and intra-gender relations.

Nick_A wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:25 am
If a school rules that students should decide what they are during the formative years it defeats the goal of a balanced education. During the formative years gender must be defined by the sex organs. Education should include the value of gender differences. To deny essential differences is psychologically damaging. If after they graduate they decide to have a sex change operation then do so. During their school years IMO pronouns must refer to their sex organs for the benefit of recognizing the essential differences between yin and yang within human being.
In most cases yes, but there will always be outliers. However, during university instruction young adults should not be effectively belittled by grandstanding professors being paid too much money to play games by sticking their noses into personal student business where it doesn't belong. By the same token, if young Johnny wants to be known as Quetzalcoatl and tends not to respond well to his regular name, do you disrupt and divide a class by refusing or do you just call him Quet and get on with it?

Some may think Johnny should be pressured to respond properly to his real name. But is that a university professor's or other service provider's job or is that a job of his parents? Should service providers provide unwanted and gratuitous life instruction for their customers in an area in which they are not qualified because they think the customer's parents didn't do a a good enough parenting job? How far should people be encouraged to intrude or mind their own business?

If intrusion in this area is okay, then I suppose it would be okay for, say, a philosophy professor being paid generously to provide a service to gratuitously correct Nick on this theism, Veg on her rudeness and Henry on his sloppy use of language. I suspect that none of the three would find such an intrusion acceptable.

These are my creeds: Live and let live. Mind your own business. Cut others some slack. This does not include getting into strangers' faces about their own private business.

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Re: The Insidious Power of Pronoun Discrimination

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:59 am

Greta wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:31 am
Nick_A wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:25 am
Greta wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:12 am

Yes, there's bigger fish to fry than hassling inbetweeners for being inbetween in a society that demands that people be one thing or the other.

I would rather more evidence before figuring that meaning is objective or not, but gatekeeping strangers is pointless. Better to let sleeping dogs lie than to pointlessly risk contracting rabies.
If you think I've ever invited secular growls and righteous indignation before, they would be nothing compared to the reactions I would get if I ever posted this thread: "Is the Concept of the Traditional Marriage a necessary and distinct value for a Free society to Flourish?

High school and college students are in the process of changing from boys and girls into men and women. Their essential energies must be recognized so they can become themselves. There is nothing "wrong with the"inbetweeners" you mentioned. I m just saying that it is essential for the natural differences between men and women be recognized to produce a meaningful traditional marriage and healthy children who receive both the elementary male (yang) and female (yin) energies to become balanced adults.
I think these differences are not only recognised, but lionised. I think that part of the problem is the way humans so often wildly exaggerate our sex differences. Women's weakness is emphasised by clothes that make you and your feet look small, with legs bound and jammed up by tight skirts and mobility largely hobbled by ridiculously unhealthy shoes.

The false metonymies of womanhood are too often held up as what women actually are and this is liable to confuse the young. When women are de-fetishised, de-objectifies and recognised not as helpless bits of muffin (which invites weak boys who feel helpless to identify) but people capable of equal contributions who just happen to be, on average, better than men at keeping biota healthy while men are on average better at looking at that biota's mechanical and chemical qualities, then we might see less disturbed inter- and intra-gender relations.

Nick_A wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:25 am
If a school rules that students should decide what they are during the formative years it defeats the goal of a balanced education. During the formative years gender must be defined by the sex organs. Education should include the value of gender differences. To deny essential differences is psychologically damaging. If after they graduate they decide to have a sex change operation then do so. During their school years IMO pronouns must refer to their sex organs for the benefit of recognizing the essential differences between yin and yang within human being.
In most cases yes, but there will always be outliers. However, during university instruction young adults should not be effectively belittled by grandstanding professors being paid too much money to play games by sticking their noses into personal student business where it doesn't belong. By the same token, if young Johnny wants to be known as Quetzalcoatl and tends not to respond well to his regular name, do you disrupt and divide a class by refusing or do you just call him Quet and get on with it?

Some may think Johnny should be pressured to respond properly to his real name. But is that a university professor's or other service provider's job or is that a job of his parents? Should service providers provide unwanted and gratuitous life instruction for their customers in an area in which they are not qualified because they think the customer's parents didn't do a a good enough parenting job? How far should people be encouraged to intrude or mind their own business?

If intrusion in this area is okay, then I suppose it would be okay for, say, a philosophy professor being paid generously to provide a service to gratuitously correct Nick on this theism, Veg on her rudeness and Henry on his sloppy use of language. I suspect that none of the three would find such an intrusion acceptable.

These are my creeds: Live and let live. Mind your own business. Cut others some slack. This does not include getting into strangers' faces about their own private business.
What are you banging on about now?

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Re: The Insidious Power of Pronoun Discrimination

Post by TimeSeeker » Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:11 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:44 pm
Superfluous use of 'self'. It makes you look like a wanker.
Ignorant criticism.

Individuation is a thought-process - you can aim it at anything you so desire.

You can individuate the atoms in a molecule.
You can individuate self from society.

Also. I am a wanker. I am not one to turn a blind eye to the small pleasures in life.

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Re: The Insidious Power of Pronoun Discrimination

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:44 am

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:11 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:44 pm
Superfluous use of 'self'. It makes you look like a wanker.
Ignorant criticism.

Individuation is a thought-process - you can aim it at anything you so desire.

You can individuate the atoms in a molecule.
You can individuate self from society.

Also. I am a wanker. I am not one to turn a blind eye to the small pleasures in life.
What's wrong with 'this person doesn't identify as human'? What the hell else could that mean?

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Re: The Insidious Power of Pronoun Discrimination

Post by Nick_A » Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:33 am

Greta
N. High school and college students are in the process of changing from boys and girls into men and women. Their essential energies must be recognized so they can become themselves. There is nothing "wrong with the"inbetweeners" you mentioned. I m just saying that it is essential for the natural differences between men and women be recognized to produce a meaningful traditional marriage and healthy children who receive both the elementary male (yang) and female (yin) energies to become balanced adults.

G. I think these differences are not only recognised, but lionised. I think that part of the problem is the way humans so often wildly exaggerate our sex differences. Women's weakness is emphasised by clothes that make you and your feet look small, with legs bound and jammed up by tight skirts and mobility largely hobbled by ridiculously unhealthy shoes.
Only secular interpretations of gender differences are being lionized. I maintain that the secularization of society has served to make people forget the essential differences in favor of egoistic pragmatic concerns. Fashion for example is not an expression of essential differences but of lionized differences. Who in these times of PC ever says anything about the essential differences? It would be politically incorrect to do so.
The false metonymies of womanhood are too often held up as what women actually are and this is liable to confuse the young. When women are de-fetishised, de-objectifies and recognised not as helpless bits of muffin (which invites weak boys who feel helpless to identify) but people capable of equal contributions who just happen to be, on average, better than men at keeping biota healthy while men are on average better at looking at that biota's mechanical and chemical qualities, then we might see less disturbed inter- and intra-gender relations.
Why can’t men and women have complimentary essential values rather than being considered equal contributors? I seriously invite you to read this article about how feminists view sexual purpose. All of these women have no idea of the value of appreciating essential differences and only want to worship pleasure and the vulva. This is the result of secular indoctrination. Understanding the mechanics of the sex organs is one thing and understanding the purposes they serve is another

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyl ... y-want-sex

Of course many women are ignorant. But do these pleasure seekers have a clue as to what a woman’s essential value is for our species. Do they have any idea of the various purposes of sex or the nature of sex energy? No. If the best they can offer is a chat in a vulva cave, something is definitely missing.
These are my creeds: Live and let live. Mind your own business. Cut others some slack. This does not include getting into strangers' faces about their own private business.
Do you believe schools should have dress codes? Would the purposes of education be better served and students were less concerned with their appearance so they could digest ideas? If you do then pronouns would just be part of the dress code.

If you believe that the purpose of modern education is just to further self importance then dress codes are meaningless as well as pronouns.

If Jane comes into class claiming she is now Miley and wears a mini she is just expressing her self image. If Johnny comes into class wearing a mini and also claims he is Miley and demands to be addressed as she, he is also just expressing his self image and it is up to the rest of the class to decide who has the better legs.

Some old fashioned people still maintain that the purpose of education is to learn rather than being indoctrinated. The process is furthered by recognizing there is something more important than creating self image and the problems of competing self images. If a person is born male he should be addressed as male until he graduates. He doesn’t create his own reality during college, his body does.

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two way street, Greta

Post by henry quirk » Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:23 pm

Live and let live: check.

Mind your own business: check.

Cut others some slack: check.

"This does not include getting into strangers' faces about their own private business."

Keep your business private and we got no quarrel; hike up your skirt, waggle your wang, and demand to be called 'woman', well we got a quarrel (cuz you ain't a broad and I ain't gonna say you are).

#

"I suppose it would be okay for, say, a philosophy professor being paid generously to provide a service to gratuitously correct Nick on this theism, Veg on her rudeness and Henry on his sloppy use of language."

If Nick's theism, Veg's rudeness, or my sloppy writing were interruptin' the class in an obvious way, then -- yeah -- I expect the prof might have sumthin' to say about it.

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Re: The Insidious Power of Pronoun Discrimination

Post by Nick_A » Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:01 am

Henry
"I suppose it would be okay for, say, a philosophy professor being paid generously to provide a service to gratuitously correct Nick on this theism
Let's not be too hasty. It may lead to desirable unintended consequences. Suppose the prof is a cute young female intent on straightening me out so to speak and teaching me the error of my ways. What better way to do it is over a good bottle of wine and the proper ambiance letting the truth reveal itself?

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"What better way to do it is over a good bottle of wine and the proper ambiance letting the truth reveal itself?"

Post by henry quirk » Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:28 am

Nowadays: the lady prof is mannish and a dyke.

Her idea of 'straightening you out' is your testes in a vise.

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Re: The Insidious Power of Pronoun Discrimination

Post by Nick_A » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:11 pm

Just to let you know, as of this time the attack on pronouns is succeeding. The teacher refusing to use them and refer to a students name was fired. Of course the students reacted and walked out but the power of the PC administration is too strong at this time. They have dictated tht it is too insulting to be addressed to by your name. You must use their preferred pronoun

https://www.christianpost.com/news/stud ... rules.html
Students at a public high school have demonstrated their support for a Christian teacher fired from his position because he refused to refer to a trans-identified student by their preferred pronoun.

Less than 24 hours after the West Point, Virginia school board unanimously voted to terminate high school French instructor Peter Vlaming, a large group of students walked out of their classes to protest the decision.

“He's an amazing man,” student Wyatt Pedersen told WWBT News. “I think he really was going with what he believed was right and it's really unfair that he’s being punished for that, especially in such a dramatic way.”

“I feel like everyone should have the freedom of speech and the freedom of religion as well,” said Junior Zachary Gonzalez............................
Zachary has more sense than the administration.

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