Golden Rule universal wisdom or universal follery

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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For or against the Golden Rule?

1.The golden rule is a universal wisdom
6
67%
2.The golden rule is a universal follery
1
11%
3.Undecided
2
22%
 
Total votes: 9

Izzywizzy
Posts: 155
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:52 pm

Golden Rule universal wisdom or universal follery

Post by Izzywizzy »

I will present the opposing argument`s to get debate started.
As George Bernard Shaw put it, "Do not do unto others as you would that they should do unto you. Their tastes may not be the same."

The history of the Golden Rule (where did that name come from anyway?) predates Jesus, of course. It was expressed as a motto to guide any conventional system of ethics, either in its negative form by Confucius and Buddhist, Hindu and Zoroastrian sages, or in reference only to friends, as in Aristotle's writings: "We should behave to our friends as we would wish our friends to behave toward us."

Jesus' statement was a commentary on Leviticus 19:18, "Love your neighbor as yourself."

Some Jewish teaching, interpreting that verse, forbade people to hate their enemies and required them to behave in the same way toward sinners and the righteous. Rabbi Hillel added the negative command, "What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow men."

Jesus, as was his habit, pushed the rule from an outward form of behavior to the inward reality that can't be faked. He returned to the original intent and applied it not only to friends, but to enemies. In effect, he made "Do unto others" undoable with our own resources.

The Golden Rule is not something we can achieve. Rather it is a constant reminder of our need to repent. Our inability to relate to others according to the Golden Rule creates the only condition in which that kind of relationship might be possible--our own repentance.

by Ole Anthony
Paul Treanor makes some very pertinent counter points on the Golden Rule
The so-called Golden Rule, the ethic of transference of perspective, is common to many religions and cultures. That does not make it right. Immanuel Kant, for instance, dismissed it in a footnote. Few ethical precepts are as easy to undermine as the Golden Rule: but unfortunately it just soldiers on, through the millennia. And increasingly, it is proposed as one foundation of a 'global ethic'

The Golden Rule implies that I should transfer my perspective to the person affected, the one standing in front of me who will be affected by my action. But behind them may be another, who is affected by the person standing in front of me. Where does it stop? In society, my help to others will often facilitate their harm to third parties. The pure altruist, who helps everyone, will cause harm. Helping people at random, on the grounds that some of them are good, is no more moral than shooting people at random, on the grounds that some are bad. Insofar as the Golden Rule is interpreted as a principle of one-step-only altruism, it is wrong.



The title gives a dramatic example. What would have happened, if the commanders of Soviet troops in late April 1945 were committed to the Golden Rule, and telepathically in touch with Adolf Hitler? They would have understood his extreme fear and despair, so great that he planned to kill his favourite dog and commit suicide. Who would want that to happen to them? The Golden Rule would suggest they call off the siege of Berlin, and withdraw their troops from the Reich. The western commanders, if they had similar attitudes and telepathic powers, would do the same. Europe would be left in control of Hitler. Now where does that leave the liberation of Dachau?

As I said above, it is farcical to apply tenets like the Golden Rule to historical situations anyway. But its supporters do use it for political purposes, including its application to social transactions involving millions of people. So, note what is missing from the use of the Golden Rule in this example: the commanders are telepathically in touch with only one person. Millions of others think differently. On the other hands millions also supported Hitler to the end. If the decision is to consider their perspective as well, great problems will arise with defining priorities for differing perspectives. The question will arise of whether certain perspectives are fundamental, and can not be overridden.
tbieter
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Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:45 pm
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota, USA

Re: Golden Rule universal wisdom or universal follery

Post by tbieter »

Izzywizzy wrote:I will present the opposing argument`s to get debate started.
As George Bernard Shaw put it, "Do not do unto others as you would that they should do unto you. Their tastes may not be the same."

The history of the Golden Rule (where did that name come from anyway?) predates Jesus, of course. It was expressed as a motto to guide any conventional system of ethics, either in its negative form by Confucius and Buddhist, Hindu and Zoroastrian sages, or in reference only to friends, as in Aristotle's writings: "We should behave to our friends as we would wish our friends to behave toward us."

Jesus' statement was a commentary on Leviticus 19:18, "Love your neighbor as yourself."

Some Jewish teaching, interpreting that verse, forbade people to hate their enemies and required them to behave in the same way toward sinners and the righteous. Rabbi Hillel added the negative command, "What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow men."

Jesus, as was his habit, pushed the rule from an outward form of behavior to the inward reality that can't be faked. He returned to the original intent and applied it not only to friends, but to enemies. In effect, he made "Do unto others" undoable with our own resources.

The Golden Rule is not something we can achieve. Rather it is a constant reminder of our need to repent. Our inability to relate to others according to the Golden Rule creates the only condition in which that kind of relationship might be possible--our own repentance.

by Ole Anthony
Paul Treanor makes some very pertinent counter points on the Golden Rule
The so-called Golden Rule, the ethic of transference of perspective, is common to many religions and cultures. That does not make it right. Immanuel Kant, for instance, dismissed it in a footnote. Few ethical precepts are as easy to undermine as the Golden Rule: but unfortunately it just soldiers on, through the millennia. And increasingly, it is proposed as one foundation of a 'global ethic'

The Golden Rule implies that I should transfer my perspective to the person affected, the one standing in front of me who will be affected by my action. But behind them may be another, who is affected by the person standing in front of me. Where does it stop? In society, my help to others will often facilitate their harm to third parties. The pure altruist, who helps everyone, will cause harm. Helping people at random, on the grounds that some of them are good, is no more moral than shooting people at random, on the grounds that some are bad. Insofar as the Golden Rule is interpreted as a principle of one-step-only altruism, it is wrong.



The title gives a dramatic example. What would have happened, if the commanders of Soviet troops in late April 1945 were committed to the Golden Rule, and telepathically in touch with Adolf Hitler? They would have understood his extreme fear and despair, so great that he planned to kill his favourite dog and commit suicide. Who would want that to happen to them? The Golden Rule would suggest they call off the siege of Berlin, and withdraw their troops from the Reich. The western commanders, if they had similar attitudes and telepathic powers, would do the same. Europe would be left in control of Hitler. Now where does that leave the liberation of Dachau?

As I said above, it is farcical to apply tenets like the Golden Rule to historical situations anyway. But its supporters do use it for political purposes, including its application to social transactions involving millions of people. So, note what is missing from the use of the Golden Rule in this example: the commanders are telepathically in touch with only one person. Millions of others think differently. On the other hands millions also supported Hitler to the end. If the decision is to consider their perspective as well, great problems will arise with defining priorities for differing perspectives. The question will arise of whether certain perspectives are fundamental, and can not be overridden.
_______________________________________________________________

"The so-called Golden Rule, the ethic of transference of perspective, is common to many religions and cultures. That does not make it right. Immanuel Kant, for instance, dismissed it in a footnote."

Regarding the above reference to Kant, in his book, The Golden Rule, at pages 83-86, Jeffrey Wattles writes about Kant and the golden rule: "If Kant's ideas are correct, both the golden rule (in its original formulation) and its religious foundation are obsolete."
http://www.amazon.com/Golden-Rule-Jeffr ... 998&sr=1-1

I would suggest that Kant did not dismiss the golden rule. Rather, he rightly argued that it was inadequate when compared to the principles of reason that he advocated.

I agree, but I would still teach the golden rule (other-directed consideration) to the common people. It has the virtue of simplicity and the blessings of history and tradition.

Izzywizzy, what rule would you recommend as a substitute for the golden rule?
artisticsolution
Posts: 1942
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:38 am

Re: Golden Rule universal wisdom or universal follery

Post by artisticsolution »

tbieter wrote: I agree, but I would still teach the golden rule (other-directed consideration) to the common people.
Who are the "common people"? You? Me? I would rather teach it to the fat cats on Wall Street.
Izzywizzy
Posts: 155
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:52 pm

Re: Golden Rule universal wisdom or universal follery

Post by Izzywizzy »

I have to agree with Artistic here, why the common people? and not those in power over the common people?
tbieter
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Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:45 pm
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota, USA

Re: Golden Rule universal wisdom or universal follery

Post by tbieter »

I believe that all should have knowledge of and strive to practice the rule.
Izzywizzy
Posts: 155
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:52 pm

Re: Golden Rule universal wisdom or universal follery

Post by Izzywizzy »

tbieter wrote
I believe that all should have knowledge of and strive to practice the rule.
I think that is the dilemma with the GR as illustrated by me, not all have knowledge of it or strive for it or know my tastes..how can you treating me as you wish to be treated be good for me? what if you are a masochist?
tbieter
Posts: 1206
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Location: St. Paul, Minnesota, USA

Re: Golden Rule universal wisdom or universal follery

Post by tbieter »

Izzywizzy wrote:tbieter wrote
I believe that all should have knowledge of and strive to practice the rule.
I think that is the dilemma with the GR as illustrated by me, not all have knowledge of it or strive for it or know my tastes..how can you treating me as you wish to be treated be good for me? what if you are a masochist?
The rule presupposes sympathy. Professor Wattles states at page 179:

"In sum, the counterexample provides an occasion for recognizing that, in order for the golden rule to work reliably, one must assume that the agent has a normal capacity for sympathetic consideration for others' feelings and a reasonable sense of personal dignity."

The masochist could follow the rule by restraining himself (his interests) and choosing not to inflict pain on the other person who is not a masochist.
Izzywizzy
Posts: 155
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:52 pm

Re: Golden Rule universal wisdom or universal follery

Post by Izzywizzy »

The masochist could follow the rule by restraining himself (his interests) and choosing not to inflict pain on the other person who is not a masochist.
Why would a masochist restrain what they want to be treated like? this kills all and any notion of any golden rule and stops it in its tracks...what of the sadist? that would teach me how to be sadistic? he would treat me as he see`s fit and not you or me..he would treat me as he wants to be treated, many sadists would never understand mercy or compassion. and therein lies the problem..the professor presupposes..that the masochist or sadist won`t treat others as they wish to be treated which in fact denys their golden rule. The GR being "TREAT others as YOU wish to be TREATED" Sorry tbieter but you are now grasping at straws known as the strawman argument.
tbieter
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Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:45 pm
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota, USA

Re: Golden Rule universal wisdom or universal follery

Post by tbieter »

Izzywizzy wrote:
The masochist could follow the rule by restraining himself (his interests) and choosing not to inflict pain on the other person who is not a masochist.
Why would a masochist restrain what they want to be treated like? this kills all and any notion of any golden rule and stops it in its tracks...what of the sadist? that would teach me how to be sadistic? he would treat me as he see`s fit and not you or me..he would treat me as he wants to be treated, many sadists would never understand mercy or compassion. and therein lies the problem..the professor presupposes..that the masochist or sadist won`t treat others as they wish to be treated which in fact denys their golden rule. The GR being "TREAT others as YOU wish to be TREATED" Sorry tbieter but you are now grasping at straws known as the strawman argument.
I agree. The masochist, sadist, or sociopath is not likely to use the golden rule to altruistically guide his behavior. But the normal person can and will and, fortunately, he constitutes the vast majority.
artisticsolution
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Re: Golden Rule universal wisdom or universal follery

Post by artisticsolution »

tbieter wrote: I agree. The masochist, sadist, or sociopath is not likely to use the golden rule to altruistically guide his behavior. But the normal person can and will and, fortunately, he constitutes the vast majority.
I agree. The problem is "the normal person" is also a follower. So if the golden rule is popular and trendy then the "normal person" will follow. If it is not he won't.

Reality TV mentality is popular. Donald Trump...saying "you're fired", Simon Cowell berating and making fun of people who can't sing, desperate housewives belittling each other...Mean people of all ages disrespecting other people and proud of it. It seems as if just being mean and looking down on others gets you more respect in life.

Is it no wonder that wall street gets off scott free? I wonder how many people out there truly wish that they would have been in the position to pull off the wall st. scam first? How many are tempted to scam others because they think it is a good trait to have? I think there are a lot of people out there who think cheating people is the same as having good business sense and savvy/wise.

So how do we make the Golden rule popular again?

It seems just being religious doesn't necessarily make you follow the rule. I am sure not many of these religious republicans would not want the same treatment they are doling out to others but dole it out to other they will. Has anyone mention perhaps taxing huge corporations like exxon a little more? Seems to me it's always the "normal people" who are expected to abide by the golden rule...never the rich...why is that?

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... 4521.story
Impenitent
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Re: Golden Rule universal wisdom or universal follery

Post by Impenitent »

artisticsolution wrote:...
So how do we make the Golden rule popular again?

It seems just being religious doesn't necessarily make you follow the rule. I am sure not many of these religious republicans would not want the same treatment they are doling out to others but dole it out to other they will. Has anyone mention perhaps taxing huge corporations like exxon a little more? Seems to me it's always the "normal people" who are expected to abide by the golden rule...never the rich...why is that?

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... 4521.story
he who has the gold makes the rules.

-Imp
creativesoul
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Re: Golden Rule universal wisdom or universal follery

Post by creativesoul »

The poll is a false dichotomy.
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Dunce
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Re: Golden Rule universal wisdom or universal follery

Post by Dunce »

It depends how those around you behave. It's like pacifism. If you can get everyone in the world to believe in it, the world becomes a better place. But a pacifist nation surrounded by military dictatorships isn't likely to last long. If you live according to the golden rule whilst being surrounded by selfish people you just become a mug.

George Bernard Shaw's comment may seem flippant, but I think there's something in it. Some people crave recognition for their abilities and actions. They want to be praised and flattered all the time, not even caring if the praise is insincere and the flattery has ulterior motives. They assume others like to be treated in the same way and that getting on with people is all about buttering them up. But not everyone feels this way. Some prefer anonymity. They wince at recognition and are nauseated by praise.
RawesomePossum
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Re: Golden Rule universal wisdom or universal follery

Post by RawesomePossum »

The golden rule may "seem" too archaic and vague to hold any significance in society today. But I would argue that it is elegantly interpretive of general empathy towards others outside of yourself. To draw an absolute from such a raw statement is similar to holding the bible as literal meaning without interpretation-which the church itself spends countless man hours on deducing the philosophy behind scripture-which I think is silly.
Along with the idea and implementation of empathy comes the understanding that once you understand and relate to something that was once alien and scary like a different person, they cease to be outside and in a sense become part of you, and why would anyone knowingly do harm to themselves?
The Golden Rule as I see it is half of a duality that preserves humanity from the "Dog Eat Dog World" motto that inevitably would consume us all.
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Arising_uk
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Re: Golden Rule universal wisdom or universal follery

Post by Arising_uk »

tbieter wrote:I believe that all should have knowledge of and strive to practice the rule.
Which is why this golden rule fails as the bankers do exactly that, act as they think others will do unto them and this is how they to wish to be treated too.
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