Philosophical Realism is A Threat to Humanity

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Veritas Aequitas
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Philosophical Realism is A Threat to Humanity

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Philosophical Realism as an Evolutionary Default is A Threat to Humanity in the Future.
Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2023 7:16 am
A rigorous methodological separation of features of reality from what we believe and know about them, and from what we say about them - a separation that the various kinds of anti-realism refuse to contemplate - is the cure for the conceptual mess in which anti-realism festers.
You are very ignorant.

As I had stated, philosophical realism [human-condition independent] [aka mind-independent] is an evolutionary default embedded in ALL human since 200,000 years ago and deterministically linked to a 13.7 billion years history to the Big Bang.
This human independence of reality is critical for basic survival.

Whilst the idea of human-independent-reality is crucial and has been successful of basic survival since 3.5 billions of years since life first emerged, it created two concepts;
1. that which is described,
2. description of the-described
which turn generates a REALITY-GAP where the only way to reconcile the-description with the-described is via correspondence and mirroring.

Thus the above is the skeptics feast in declaring the REALITY-GAP is eternal and humans will never ever know what is really real.
There is no way to prove the really real, i.e. the described.

You keep blabbering there is
1. the fact, a feature of reality that is just-is, being-so, that is the case where no words and meanings can touch eternally
2. the above 1 is independent of subjects [humans] opinions, beliefs and judgments.
But you are unable to demonstrate in any way, what 1 above really is.

You are very arrogant based on your ignorance not realizing that was only about 5,000 -10,000 years ago a few humans realized there is something wrong with philosophical-realism - the evolutionary default.

Note example, the Buddha, Protagoras' "Man is the measure of all things" and a few others pioneers who has the competence to break away from the masses.

One point is;
as humans continue to evolve with knowledge of reality, they have the greater the knowledge of the existence of greater threats against humanity.
In the past, ignorance was bliss, even when it existed the possibility of a rogue meteorite coming from nowhere to smash humanity into extinction like what happened to the dinosaurs. Ignorance was bliss, even with the possibility of a pandemic, and other global threats that could wiped the human species to extinctions.
With an exponential expansion of knowledge, there is the threat of human extinction from cheap available WMDs [nuclear and biological], climate change and global warmings.

Now, the 13.7 billion years old philosophical realism of human independence [mind-independent] which is effective for our ancient ancestors is becoming a real liability and potential threat to humanity if we dogmatically cling to it without a paradigm shift by the masses.

However, if there is a paradigm shift from philosophical-realism to anti-philosophical-realism [Kantian], then we view reality as interdependent with the human conditions.
Because humans are interdependent with reality [e.g. co-creators], such a realization will enable the majority of humans to take responsibility for the likely threats they could be contributing to the existence of humanity.

See this post: viewtopic.php?p=651849#p651849
and post #2.
Last edited by Veritas Aequitas on Wed Jun 28, 2023 5:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Philosophical Realism is A Threat to Humanity

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Thesis: 5. With no moral objective of 'ought-not-ness-to-kill-humans' and with the easy access to WMDs in the future, there is the very likelihood* of the extermination of the human species.

Notes:
Humans are Intricately Part & Parcel of Reality
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39751

A What is Being Realistic:
Reality is All-there-is.
All-there-is includes all human beings.
Therefore, Reality cannot be absolutely independent of humans*.
or
Therefore, Humans are Intricately Part & Parcel of Reality [all there is]
* i.e. the human conditions.

1. Humans are Intricately Part & Parcel of Reality [all there is]
2. All facts of reality are conditioned upon a specific FSK sustained by a collective of subjects not ONE subject - thus objective.
3. Moral facts are conditioned upon a moral FSK.
4. Therefore, morality is objective.

The above 'morality is objective' with fixed goal posts will facilitate all humans towards moral progress to ensure the humans themselves do not contribute the exterminate the human species.

..............................
The argument.

1. Philosophical Realism specifically adopts the view that reality, truths, knowledge and objectivity are mind-independent.

2. Most* philosophical realists insist all of morality is subjective or relative, i.e. not mind-independent. * some are moral nihilists.

3. So, there are no mind-independent moral facts, truths and objectivity.

4. Since there is no moral objectivity, it is "to each their own"; who is to say who is right or who is wrong; the resulting mode is tolerance of the views of others; there is no moral objectivity such as the universal 'ought-not-ness-to-kill-humans' inhibiting evil acts.

5. With no moral objective of 'ought-not-ness-to-kill-humans' and with the easy access to WMDs in the future, there is the very likelihood* of the extermination of the human species.

*It is most likely from Islam, where Mutual Assured Destruction [MAD] do not work as a deterrent at all, since it is a win-win for them even if all humans are killed because as Muslims they are assured of eternal life in Paradise with their '72 virgins'.
Last edited by Veritas Aequitas on Fri Jun 30, 2023 3:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Philosophical Realism is A Threat to Humanity

Post by Iwannaplato »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 9:12 am Because humans are interdependent with reality [e.g. co-creators], such a realization will enable the majority of humans to take responsibility for the likely threats they could be contributing to the existence of humanity.
A realist cannot take responsibility for the likely threats the could be contributing to the existence of humanity?????!!!!!
Why would a realist not be able to think that their actions and even words could have effects on a mind independent world that humans get food from, for example?

You'll find realists of all kinds trying to stop doing things they consider bad for a wide range of reasons and in a wide range of ways. There is nothing inherent in realism that stops someone from taking responsibility for their acts.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Philosophical Realism is A Threat to Humanity

Post by Iwannaplato »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 9:13 am Notes:
Humans are Intricately Part & Parcel of Reality
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39751

A What is Being Realistic:
Reality is All-there-is.
All-there-is includes all human beings.
Therefore, Reality cannot be absolutely independent of humans*.
or
Therefore, Humans are Intricately Part & Parcel of Reality [all there is]
* i.e. the human conditions.

1. Humans are Intricately Part & Parcel of Reality [all there is]
2. All facts of reality are conditioned upon a specific FSK sustained by a collective of subjects not ONE subject - thus objective.
3. Moral facts are conditioned upon a moral FSK.
4. Therefore, morality is objective.
Morality is objective. Not any particular morality, any morality.
In the Middle Ages morality in Europe was objective.
Morality is objective in Muslim countries.

Notice that he keeps this at an abstract completley general level. Morality is objective.
Not any particular morality, whether some version of consequentialist, deontological or virtue ethics.
Morality is objective.

So what, then?
Skepdick
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Re: Philosophical Realism is A Threat to Humanity

Post by Skepdick »

Iwannaplato wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 11:54 am So what, then?
The fact that you are asking this question sure suggests you had some preconception about the way objective morality should be like.

Are you unhappy; unsatisfied; or displeased with the way it is? Improve it then!
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Harbal
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Re: Philosophical Realism is A Threat to Humanity

Post by Harbal »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 9:12 am
Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2023 7:16 am
A rigorous methodological separation of features of reality from what we believe and know about them, and from what we say about them - a separation that the various kinds of anti-realism refuse to contemplate - is the cure for the conceptual mess in which anti-realism festers.
You are very ignorant.
Why don't you just challenge Peter Holmes to a bare knuckle fight and get it all out of your system?
Iwannaplato
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Re: Philosophical Realism is A Threat to Humanity

Post by Iwannaplato »

Harbal wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 3:51 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 9:12 am
Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2023 7:16 am
A rigorous methodological separation of features of reality from what we believe and know about them, and from what we say about them - a separation that the various kinds of anti-realism refuse to contemplate - is the cure for the conceptual mess in which anti-realism festers.
You are very ignorant.
Why don't you just challenge Peter Holmes to a bare knuckle fight and get it all out of your system?
You really don't understand. There's no Peter Holmes independent of Veritas Aequitas' mind. It's an internal struggle.

You didn't think there's like some guy named Peter Holmes who lives in Boise say, in a separate body, who existence goes on outside of Veritas Aequitas' mind? Like maybe he's preparing a nice brunch for himself in his cabin while no one is looking at him? And someday they agree to meet in New York and slug it out?

You are clearly one of the realists who threaten the existence of humanity. ( I always suspected that )
Flannel Jesus
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Re: Philosophical Realism is A Threat to Humanity

Post by Flannel Jesus »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 9:12 am With an exponential expansion of knowledge, there is the threat of human extinction from cheap available WMDs [nuclear and biological], climate change and global warmings.

Now, the 13.7 billion years old philosophical realism of human independence [mind-independent] which is effective for our ancient ancestors is becoming a real liability and potential threat to humanity if we dogmatically cling to it without a paradigm shift by the masses.
No where in your post could I see what I would describe as an argument for this conclusion. The conclusion is just presented bare, raw, naked. What do the threats of wmds, climate change etc have to do with philosophical realism? Why is philosophical realism the source of these problems? Why should someone believe that a world full of anti realists wouldn't have these problems?

I've seen the assertion - Where's the argument?
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Harbal
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Re: Philosophical Realism is A Threat to Humanity

Post by Harbal »

Iwannaplato wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 3:54 pm
You are clearly one of the realists who threaten the existence of humanity. ( I always suspected that )
Yes, I like to think I play my part in it. :wink:
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Re: Philosophical Realism is A Threat to Humanity

Post by Iwannaplato »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 3:59 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 9:12 am With an exponential expansion of knowledge, there is the threat of human extinction from cheap available WMDs [nuclear and biological], climate change and global warmings.

Now, the 13.7 billion years old philosophical realism of human independence [mind-independent] which is effective for our ancient ancestors is becoming a real liability and potential threat to humanity if we dogmatically cling to it without a paradigm shift by the masses.
No where in your post could I see what I would describe as an argument for this conclusion. The conclusion is just presented bare, raw, naked. What do the threats of wmds, climate change etc have to do with philosophical realism? Why is philosophical realism the source of these problems? Why should someone believe that a world full of anti realists wouldn't have these problems?

I've seen the assertion - Where's the argument?
And no seeming awareness of the irony throwing facts at realists that are based on the conclusions of realists.

And FJ, we must spend a moment contemplating the idea that realism is 13.7 billion years old. Those nasty realist quantum fluctuations expanding to make our universe.
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Re: Philosophical Realism is A Threat to Humanity

Post by Atla »

Personally I'd rather trust WMDs to realists, than to people who think that the world is just a figment of their imagination.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Philosophical Realism is A Threat to Humanity

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 3:59 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 9:12 am With an exponential expansion of knowledge, there is the threat of human extinction from cheap available WMDs [nuclear and biological], climate change and global warmings.

Now, the 13.7 billion years old philosophical realism of human independence [mind-independent] which is effective for our ancient ancestors is becoming a real liability and potential threat to humanity if we dogmatically cling to it without a paradigm shift by the masses.
No where in your post could I see what I would describe as an argument for this conclusion. The conclusion is just presented bare, raw, naked. What do the threats of wmds, climate change etc have to do with philosophical realism?
Why is philosophical realism the source of these problems?
Why should someone believe that a world full of anti realists wouldn't have these problems?

I've seen the assertion - Where's the argument?
OK, here's the argument.

1. Philosophical Realism specifically adopts the view that reality, truths, knowledge and objectivity are mind-independent.

2. Most* philosophical realists insist all of morality is subjective or relative, i.e. not mind-independent. * some are moral nihilists.

3. So, there are no mind-independent moral facts, truths and objectivity.

4. Since there is no moral objectivity, it is "to each their own"; who is to say who is right or who is wrong; the resulting mode is tolerance of the views of others; there is no moral objectivity such as the universal 'ought-not-ness-to-kill-humans' inhibiting evil acts.

5. With no moral objective of 'ought-not-ness-to-kill-humans' and with the easy access to WMDs in the future, there is the very likelihood* of the extermination of the human species.

*It is most likely from Islam, where Mutual Assured Destruction [MAD] do not work as a deterrent at all, since it is a win-win for them even if all humans are killed because as Muslims they are assured of eternal life in Paradise with their '72 virgins'.
Why should someone believe that a world full of anti realists wouldn't have these problems?
There are many types of anti-philosophical-realists.
Note I mentioned mine is related to the Kantian kind.
In this particular anti-philosophical-realism, morality is objective and there are objective moral facts as physical neural correlates as inhibitors in the brain.

One [there are many] of the moral fact [element] is the 'ought-not-ness-to-kill-humans' inhibitors.
Where we recognize this moral inhibitors as a physical moral fact [within the moral FSK] and strive [toward the future] to develop it via voluntary self-development, then there is the opportunity to prevent the extermination of the human species via cheap WMDs and other evil acts.
Flannel Jesus
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Re: Philosophical Realism is A Threat to Humanity

Post by Flannel Jesus »

So philosophical realism only really indirectly matters at all. The central point is that you think people should be moral realists, THAT'S the real goal, and that would be the goal regardless of if people believe in objective reality or not, right?
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Re: Philosophical Realism is A Threat to Humanity

Post by Peter Holmes »

Goddit. There are no mind-independent facts. But there are moral facts, such as the existence of an 'oughtness-not-to-kill-humans' inhibitor represented by neurons in human brains.

Years of contemplation - and amassing documents and sometimes reading bits of them - and this unutterable tripe is the rotten fruit.

Just as there are no aesthetic facts, but only aesthetic opinions - this is beautiful/ugly - so there are no moral facts, but only moral opinions - this is morally right/wrong. So morality isn't and can't be objective.

And that's why it's completely rational for people to hold diametrically opposed moral opinions, such as: abortion is/is not morally wrong. There is no fact that can settle the matter.

Moral realists and objective are just wrong. The end. (Or is it?)
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Harbal
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Re: Philosophical Realism is A Threat to Humanity

Post by Harbal »

Peter Holmes wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 8:22 am
Just as there are no aesthetic facts, but only aesthetic opinions - this is beautiful/ugly - so there are no moral facts, but only moral opinions - this is morally right/wrong. So morality isn't and can't be objective.
This is IRREFUTABLE, in the days when this was being written. :wink:
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