Sociobiology of Morality

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Veritas Aequitas
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Sociobiology of Morality

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

E O Wilson, in his book, Sociobiology: The New Synthesis; made the following suggestion;
Scientists and humanists should consider together the possibility that the time has come for ethics to be removed temporarily from the hands of the philosophers and biologicized.
Chapter 27
Wilson mentioned two limited ethical system at present which he believed is inefficient in enabling moral progress. Btw, note 'temporarily'.
The first is ethical intuitionism, the belief that the mind has a direct awareness of true right and wrong that it can formalize by logic and translate into rules of social action.
The purest guiding precept of secular Western thought has been the theory of the social contract as formulated by Locke, Rousseau, and Kant.

The Achilles heel of the intuitionist position is that it relies on the emotive judgment of the brain as though that organ must be treated as a black box.
While few will disagree that justice as fairness is an ideal state for disembodied spirits, the conception is in no way explanatory or predictive with reference to human beings.
Consequently, it does not consider the ultimate ecological or genetic consequences of the rigorous prosecution of its conclusions.
Perhaps explanation and prediction will not be needed for the millennium.
But this is unlikely—the human genotype and the ecosystem in which it evolved were fashioned out of extreme unfairness.

In either case the full exploration of the neural machinery of ethical judgment is desirable and already in progress.
The second is that of Ethical Behaviorism and countered by Kohlberg's developmental-genetic conception of ethical behavior which is pointing towards biology and genes.
the second mode of conceptualization, can be called ethical behaviorism.
Its basic proposition, which has been expanded most fully by J. F. Scott (1971), holds that moral commitment is entirely learned, with operant conditioning being the dominant mechanism.

Opposing this theory is the developmental-genetic conception of ethical behavior.
The best-documented version has been provided by Lawrence Kohlberg (1969).
Kohlberg’s viewpoint is structuralist and specifically Piagetian, and therefore not yet related to the remainder of biology.
Piaget has used the expression “genetic epistemology” and Kohlberg “cognitive-developmental” to label the general concept.

However, the results will eventually become incorporated into a broadened developmental biology and genetics.
Wilson called for the Genetic Evolution of [Morality &] Ethics.
Even if the problem were solved tomorrow, however, an important piece would still be missing.
This is the Genetic Evolution of Ethics.

In the first chapter of this book I argued that ethical philosophers intuit the deontological canons of morality by consulting the emotive centers of their own hypothalamic-limbic system.
This is also true of the developmentalists, even when they are being their most severely objective.
Only by interpreting the activity of the emotive centers as a biological adaptation can the meaning of the canons be deciphered.
What Wilson proposed is, to enable morality and ethics to progress expeditiously we need to dig deep into biology, i.e. genes, the 'neural machineries' and DNA in addition to all other necessary factors.

As Wilson mentioned above the above is already in progress; he stated that in 2000. Since then there had been a lot of research on Morality and Ethics in the direction of biology, neurosciences, genetics, genomics and the latest advanced scientific knowledge.

However, while I have been following the evolutionary, biological, neuroscientific trends re Morality and Ethics, NO ONE in this forum is doing so, but rather they are still grappling and stuck with the classical theories of Morality and Ethics.

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Iwannaplato
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Re: Sociobiology of Morality

Post by Iwannaplato »

It's funny that he chides everyone for not being up to date in certain fields in a post that focuses mostly on a book that came out in the 70s.

That said, for a fairly balanced assessment of EO Wilson's positions...
https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publicat ... 20feelings.

His approach really does not solve problems, though it's interesting, mainly because of its own internal contradictions. It also is not an easy fit with VA's positions, and even offers criticism of his approach.
But there is a second, more radical school of thought in evolutionary ethics. This view holds that evolutionary biology, rather than providing a basis for improving or modernizing ethics, shows that the idea of objective ethical rules is inherently mistaken. Wilson has a foot in this camp as well. In his 1986 essay “Moral Philosophy as Applied Science,” written with philosopher Michael Ruse, he argues that we now understand that we have been “deceived by our genes” into believing that morality objectively binds us, that there is a real right versus wrong.
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Agent Smith
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Re: Sociobiology of Morality

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Excellent topic! How does DNA fit into all that we see around us? What's the time like? :?
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Sociobiology of Morality

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Agent Smith wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 11:42 am Excellent topic! How does DNA fit into all that we see around us?
What's the time like? :?
All humans potentials, functions, behaviors and actions are reducible to the DNA's coding and combination of the letters [nucleotides] of A, T, G, & C.
These codes, coding and programming [organic] are analogous to computer programming [machine].

Changing the rearrangements of the letter A, T, G, & C within the genes & DNA can alter the humans potentials, functions, behaviors and actions, thus, moral potentials and actions.
This is already a possibility* at present, but reprogramming the DNA in humans is held back by ethical considerations at present.

* Chinese scientist who produced genetically altered babies sentenced to 3 years in jail. Link

However, I am optimistic it will be permissible in the future [50, 75, 100> years?] when humanity is able to set up FOOLPROOF methods to do it.
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Agent Smith
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Re: Sociobiology of Morality

Post by Agent Smith »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:15 am
Agent Smith wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 11:42 am Excellent topic! How does DNA fit into all that we see around us?
What's the time like? :?
All humans potentials, functions, behaviors and actions are reducible to the DNA's coding and combination of the letters [nucleotides] of A, T, G, & C.
These codes, coding and programming [organic] are analogous to computer programming [machine].

Changing the rearrangements of the letter A, T, G, & C within the genes & DNA can alter the humans potentials, functions, behaviors and actions, thus, moral potentials and actions.
This is already a possibility* at present, but reprogramming the DNA in humans is held back by ethical considerations at present.

* Chinese scientist who produced genetically altered babies sentenced to 3 years in jail. Link

However, I am optimistic it will be permissible in the future [50, 75, 100> years?] when humanity is able to set up FOOLPROOF methods to do it.
Indeed, the future is a full cup. Mastery of DNA engineering may be exactly what the doctor ordered for us. However, there's always a however, how have we fared in areas that matter so far?
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Sociobiology of Morality

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Agent Smith wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:43 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:15 am
Agent Smith wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 11:42 am Excellent topic! How does DNA fit into all that we see around us?
What's the time like? :?
All humans potentials, functions, behaviors and actions are reducible to the DNA's coding and combination of the letters [nucleotides] of A, T, G, & C.
These codes, coding and programming [organic] are analogous to computer programming [machine].

Changing the rearrangements of the letter A, T, G, & C within the genes & DNA can alter the humans potentials, functions, behaviors and actions, thus, moral potentials and actions.
This is already a possibility* at present, but reprogramming the DNA in humans is held back by ethical considerations at present.

* Chinese scientist who produced genetically altered babies sentenced to 3 years in jail. Link

However, I am optimistic it will be permissible in the future [50, 75, 100> years?] when humanity is able to set up FOOLPROOF methods to do it.
Indeed, the future is a full cup. Mastery of DNA engineering may be exactly what the doctor ordered for us. However, there's always a however, how have we fared in areas that matter so far?
Not sure of your question?
You mean, are there positive results for humans so far?
As stated above, DNA engineering in humans is held back by ethical and legal considerations at present.

However there are loads of positive results from DNA engineering with non-humans;
Genetic engineering has applications in medicine, research, industry and agriculture and can be used on a wide range of plants, animals and microorganisms.
Bacteria, the first organisms to be genetically modified, can have plasmid DNA inserted containing new genes that code for medicines or enzymes that process food and other substrates.[81][82]
Plants have been modified for insect protection, herbicide resistance, virus resistance, enhanced nutrition, tolerance to environmental pressures and the production of edible vaccines.[83] Most commercialised GMOs are insect resistant or herbicide tolerant crop plants.[84]
Genetically modified animals have been used for research, model animals and the production of agricultural or pharmaceutical products. The genetically modified animals include animals with genes knocked out, increased susceptibility to disease, hormones for extra growth and the ability to express proteins in their milk.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_e ... plications
Note the various areas which Genetic engineering has successes;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_e ... g#Medicine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_e ... g#Research

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_e ... Industrial

Agriculture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_e ... griculture

Others:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_e ... plications
Iwannaplato
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Re: Sociobiology of Morality

Post by Iwannaplato »

Agent Smith wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:43 am Indeed, the future is a full cup. Mastery of DNA engineering may be exactly what the doctor ordered for us. However, there's always a however, how have we fared in areas that matter so far?
Unfortunately there is no good way to evaluate. Industry has absorbed any government oversight. They exert enormous pressures on media to not treat criticisms of their fairly. They have powerful lobbying and PR. They have their own scientists to create and throw BS in response to research showing problems. I am sure some uses have been effective, but we are not mature enough to use these technologies and the major player, for ex. the classic M, do not care about side and medium to long term effects. They drooling after money.
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Agent Smith
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Re: Sociobiology of Morality

Post by Agent Smith »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 6:29 am
Agent Smith wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:43 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:15 am
All humans potentials, functions, behaviors and actions are reducible to the DNA's coding and combination of the letters [nucleotides] of A, T, G, & C.
These codes, coding and programming [organic] are analogous to computer programming [machine].

Changing the rearrangements of the letter A, T, G, & C within the genes & DNA can alter the humans potentials, functions, behaviors and actions, thus, moral potentials and actions.
This is already a possibility* at present, but reprogramming the DNA in humans is held back by ethical considerations at present.

* Chinese scientist who produced genetically altered babies sentenced to 3 years in jail. Link

However, I am optimistic it will be permissible in the future [50, 75, 100> years?] when humanity is able to set up FOOLPROOF methods to do it.
Indeed, the future is a full cup. Mastery of DNA engineering may be exactly what the doctor ordered for us. However, there's always a however, how have we fared in areas that matter so far?
Not sure of your question?
You mean, are there positive results for humans so far?
As stated above, DNA engineering in humans is held back by ethical and legal considerations at present.

However there are loads of positive results from DNA engineering with non-humans;
Genetic engineering has applications in medicine, research, industry and agriculture and can be used on a wide range of plants, animals and microorganisms.
Bacteria, the first organisms to be genetically modified, can have plasmid DNA inserted containing new genes that code for medicines or enzymes that process food and other substrates.[81][82]
Plants have been modified for insect protection, herbicide resistance, virus resistance, enhanced nutrition, tolerance to environmental pressures and the production of edible vaccines.[83] Most commercialised GMOs are insect resistant or herbicide tolerant crop plants.[84]
Genetically modified animals have been used for research, model animals and the production of agricultural or pharmaceutical products. The genetically modified animals include animals with genes knocked out, increased susceptibility to disease, hormones for extra growth and the ability to express proteins in their milk.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_e ... plications
Note the various areas which Genetic engineering has successes;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_e ... g#Medicine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_e ... g#Research

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_e ... Industrial

Agriculture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_e ... griculture

Others:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_e ... plications
Muchas gracias for the well-researched reply. Who should we turn to for guidance?
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Sociobiology of Morality

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Agent Smith wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 8:15 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 6:29 am
Agent Smith wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:43 am

Indeed, the future is a full cup. Mastery of DNA engineering may be exactly what the doctor ordered for us. However, there's always a however, how have we fared in areas that matter so far?
Not sure of your question?
You mean, are there positive results for humans so far?
As stated above, DNA engineering in humans is held back by ethical and legal considerations at present.

However there are loads of positive results from DNA engineering with non-humans;
Genetic engineering has applications in medicine, research, industry and agriculture and can be used on a wide range of plants, animals and microorganisms.
Bacteria, the first organisms to be genetically modified, can have plasmid DNA inserted containing new genes that code for medicines or enzymes that process food and other substrates.[81][82]
Plants have been modified for insect protection, herbicide resistance, virus resistance, enhanced nutrition, tolerance to environmental pressures and the production of edible vaccines.[83] Most commercialised GMOs are insect resistant or herbicide tolerant crop plants.[84]
Genetically modified animals have been used for research, model animals and the production of agricultural or pharmaceutical products. The genetically modified animals include animals with genes knocked out, increased susceptibility to disease, hormones for extra growth and the ability to express proteins in their milk.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_e ... plications
Note the various areas which Genetic engineering has successes;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_e ... g#Medicine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_e ... g#Research

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_e ... Industrial

Agriculture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_e ... griculture

Others:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_e ... plications
Muchas gracias for the well-researched reply. Who should we turn to f9r guidance?
Ultimately it is self-regulation and self-guidance by each individual with high moral competence.

What is most critical is humanity must develop and expedite the moral competence of the majority from say the present moral quotient at 100 within an incremental trend to 1500 in say 100 years.

The most important fundamental requirement is we must recognize the inherent objective moral facts [the physical moral functions and machineries] within all humans. This is why we need to dig deep into establishing a biological basis for morality [re OP].

Once we have identified the objective moral facts in terms of physical moral functions and machineries, then we can establish ways to improve them, first starting with those related to the black-box [non-invasive] approaches.

Since thousands of years ago, the spiritual communities has been developing these black-box via trial and error methods and had some success, e.g. the Buddhists 2500 years ago and others.
With the recognition of objective moral facts, we can improve the efficiencies of these black-box techniques.

Once we have reached a certain critical mass, humanity can proceed to deal with what is inside the black-box [in 100 years time?], i.e. into the brain, neurons, genes and DNA with condition of FOOLPROOF in every step.

We need to reach a point where there is no need for laws, rules or threat but rather on the self-regulated improving moral competence within each individual.

As you will note in contrast to the above with moral fact deniers like Peter Holmes & gang being stuck with moral skepticism, i.e. no objective moral facts, [& squabbling over who is right or wrong], there is no opportunities and grounds for human to have efficient moral progress.
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Agent Smith
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Re: Sociobiology of Morality

Post by Agent Smith »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 8:44 am
Agent Smith wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 8:15 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 6:29 am
Not sure of your question?
You mean, are there positive results for humans so far?
As stated above, DNA engineering in humans is held back by ethical and legal considerations at present.

However there are loads of positive results from DNA engineering with non-humans;



Note the various areas which Genetic engineering has successes;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_e ... g#Medicine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_e ... g#Research

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_e ... Industrial

Agriculture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_e ... griculture

Others:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_e ... plications
Muchas gracias for the well-researched reply. Who should we turn to f9r guidance?
Ultimately it is self-regulation and self-guidance by each individual with high moral competence.

What is most critical is humanity must develop and expedite the moral competence of the majority from say the present moral quotient at 100 within an incremental trend to 1500 in say 100 years.

The most important fundamental requirement is we must recognize the inherent objective moral facts [the physical moral functions and machineries] within all humans. This is why we need to dig deep into establishing a biological basis for morality [re OP].

Once we have identified the objective moral facts in terms of physical moral functions and machineries, then we can establish ways to improve them, first starting with those related to the black-box [non-invasive] approaches.

Since thousands of years ago, the spiritual communities has been developing these black-box via trial and error methods and had some success, e.g. the Buddhists 2500 years ago and others.
With the recognition of objective moral facts, we can improve the efficiencies of these black-box techniques.

Once we have reached a certain critical mass, humanity can proceed to deal with what is inside the black-box [in 100 years time?], i.e. into the brain, neurons, genes and DNA with condition of FOOLPROOF in every step.

We need to reach a point where there is no need for laws, rules or threat but rather on the self-regulated improving moral competence within each individual.

As you will note in contrast to the above with moral fact deniers like Peter Holmes & gang being stuck with moral skepticism, i.e. no objective moral facts, [& squabbling over who is right or wrong], there is no opportunities and grounds for human to have efficient moral progress.
I'm inclined to agree with you despite my doubts. I hope you're right, very good of you to be so realistic in your assessment of the situation, given the givens.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Sociobiology of Morality

Post by Iwannaplato »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:15 am All humans potentials, functions, behaviors and actions are reducible to the DNA's coding and combination of the letters [nucleotides] of A, T, G, & C.
These codes, coding and programming [organic] are analogous to computer programming [machine].

Changing the rearrangements of the letter A, T, G, & C within the genes & DNA can alter the humans potentials, functions, behaviors and actions, thus, moral potentials and actions.
This is already a possibility* at present, but reprogramming the DNA in humans is held back by ethical considerations at present.

* Chinese scientist who produced genetically altered babies sentenced to 3 years in jail. Link

However, I am optimistic it will be permissible in the future [50, 75, 100> years?] when humanity is able to set up FOOLPROOF methods to do it.
Damn this holding back due to ethical considerations.

But I'm sure we'll be freed up soon to create a dystopia.
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Harbal
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Re: Sociobiology of Morality

Post by Harbal »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:15 am
All humans potentials, functions, behaviors and actions are reducible to the DNA's coding and combination of the letters [nucleotides] of A, T, G, & C.
These codes, coding and programming [organic] are analogous to computer programming [machine].

Changing the rearrangements of the letter A, T, G, & C within the genes & DNA can alter the humans potentials, functions, behaviors and actions, thus, moral potentials and actions.
This is already a possibility* at present, but reprogramming the DNA in humans is held back by ethical considerations at present.

* Chinese scientist who produced genetically altered babies sentenced to 3 years in jail. Link

However, I am optimistic it will be permissible in the future [50, 75, 100> years?] when humanity is able to set up FOOLPROOF methods to do it.
I think it extremely foolish to feel optimism at the prospect of human beings being genetically modified to be less human. It brings to mind the mad scientist trope, where well intentioned dabbling leads to disastrous consequences. :shock:
Iwannaplato
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Re: Sociobiology of Morality

Post by Iwannaplato »

Harbal wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 6:14 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:15 am
All humans potentials, functions, behaviors and actions are reducible to the DNA's coding and combination of the letters [nucleotides] of A, T, G, & C.
These codes, coding and programming [organic] are analogous to computer programming [machine].

Changing the rearrangements of the letter A, T, G, & C within the genes & DNA can alter the humans potentials, functions, behaviors and actions, thus, moral potentials and actions.
This is already a possibility* at present, but reprogramming the DNA in humans is held back by ethical considerations at present.

* Chinese scientist who produced genetically altered babies sentenced to 3 years in jail. Link

However, I am optimistic it will be permissible in the future [50, 75, 100> years?] when humanity is able to set up FOOLPROOF methods to do it.
I think it extremely foolish to feel optimism at the prospect of human beings being genetically modified to be less human. It brings to mind the mad scientist trope, where well intentioned dabbling leads to disastrous consequences. :shock:
Especially given who it will likely be developing the technology and applying it.
I swear I'd chip in to buy VA a copy of Huxley's Brave New World if I was more of an optimist.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Sociobiology of Morality

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Harbal wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 6:14 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:15 am
All humans potentials, functions, behaviors and actions are reducible to the DNA's coding and combination of the letters [nucleotides] of A, T, G, & C.
These codes, coding and programming [organic] are analogous to computer programming [machine].

Changing the rearrangements of the letter A, T, G, & C within the genes & DNA can alter the humans potentials, functions, behaviors and actions, thus, moral potentials and actions.
This is already a possibility* at present, but reprogramming the DNA in humans is held back by ethical considerations at present.

* Chinese scientist who produced genetically altered babies sentenced to 3 years in jail. Link

However, I am optimistic it will be permissible in the future [50, 75, 100> years?] when humanity is able to set up FOOLPROOF methods to do it.
I think it extremely foolish to feel optimism at the prospect of human beings being genetically modified to be less human. It brings to mind the mad scientist trope, where well intentioned dabbling leads to disastrous consequences. :shock:
Your above is the very typical metathesiophobia; the fear of change.
This has been ongoing since humans first emerged because it has survival values for the majority.

But despite the natural resistance of metathesiophobia, there is a minority who dare to face and make changes and that had enabled humanity to progress.
Note the various metathesiophobia in the past re technology, science, medicines, etc. which had proven the resistance was unnecessary.

As I had stated, whatever the changes, learning from past mistakes, it must be FOOLPROOF, i.e. after extensive testing to ensure there are no possible side effects, that is why I stated after [/b][50, 75, 100 or > years?].
It cannot be rushed like what the jailed Chinese scientist did.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Sociobiology of Morality

Post by Iwannaplato »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 5:28 am Your above is the very typical metathesiophobia; the fear of change.
VA's whole program is based on his animotophobia, the fear of emotions.
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