Caroll mentioned a few times 'in a real world"Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:36 amVeritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Mar 29, 2023 3:58 amIt is not poetic but rather a point that warrant the Principle of Charity and reconciliation.Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:32 am It's poetry to leap from "the properties of this thing are indeterminate" to "the thing doesn't exist". That's a matter of personal interpretation, it's not required by the science. To me, the science suggests the opposite.
The original context of how the point was raised is critical.
I believe you have not fully understood the point what Einstein meant when he asked David Mermin with reference to the Moon;
1. Einstein's philosophical background [also his psychological state] is critical. Einstein was a typical physical realist, i.e. he believed things [and its properties] exist independent of the mind [human conditions], i.e. the concept of Objective Reality.Einstein didn’t like this. He wanted things out there to have properties, whether or not they were measured4:
“We often discussed his notions on objective reality.
I recall that during one walk Einstein suddenly stopped, turned to me and asked whether I really believed that the moon exists only when I look at it.”
This mean things and their properties exist regardless of whether human 'look' at it or not.
It also mean things had existed before humans and will exist even if humans become extinct, a good example of such a thing is the Moon.
Einstein's 'God do not play dice' was a 'theist' [specifically a deist] who believe God created all things as independent of the human mind.
2. QM basis is Anti-Physical_Realist to 1 above.
"Quantum physics says that the universe is random and that the state of particles, like electrons or protons, can only be predicted using a probability distribution, due to their un-deterministic nature. In other words, we can only predict how particles will behave once observed, within a given probability." Link
This mean the final state of the particle is conditioned upon the human conditions [observation, i.e. interaction].
3. You just banked on the term 'properties' which is too narrow. The critical element here is "particle" with its properties and state. Btw, properties include property of existence as well. As above, the final state of the particle is conditioned upon the human conditions [observation, i.e. interaction].
4. Now the Moon [or whatever thing] in its TOTALITY is comprised of particles with its properties which are subject to the QM principles of entanglement, supposition, Wavefunction collapse, particle-wave duality, and others.
Since QM is applicable a particle, it has to be applicable to ALL particles comprising the moon.
Therefore the moon, from the QM perspective, "do not exists if no humans look at it."
Note 'the moon' Schrodinger's cat, "no sound in the forest if ......" are merely examples and illustrations to highlight counter the narrow minded dogmatic Philosophical Realists' ideology.
What the above culminate to is,
There is no objective reality that is absolute independent of the human conditions [mind] as claimed by Philosophical Realists.
What is reality is somehow entangled with the human conditions.
That is too general.That's a matter of personal interpretation, it's not required by the science. To me, the science suggests the opposite.
Should be,
QM Science suggests, the moon does not exist if no humans 'look' at it.
Newtonian Science suggests the opposite.
Einsteinian Science suggests the opposite.
Common sense suggests the opposite.
Aside,
what is more interesting is to research on the psychological factors that drive
the narrow minded dogmatic Philosophical Realists' to cling to their ideology.And here, just for completeness sake, is a quote from a genuine living quantum physicist:Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:32 am
Quantum mechanics mathematically tracks the evolution of these things which allegedly "don't exist", and it tracks the evolution of these things, using the Schrödinger equation, in a way that makes incredibly accurate predictions. At no point in the mathematical description of, say, two entangled particles, does the mathematical description say that the particles stop existing.
https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/bl ... nt-page-2/
That's exactly what I've been saying! Fancy that.The conventional quantum-mechanical answer would be “Sure, the moon exists when you’re not looking at it. But there is no such thing as `the position of the moon’ when you are not looking at it.”
So, in the real world, not only does this particular moon (of Saturn) exist when we’re not looking, it’s also in a pretty well-defined orientation — even if, in a simple model that excludes the rest of the universe, its wave function would be all spread out after only 20 years of evolution. As Zurek and Paz conclude, “Decoherence caused by the environment … is not a subterfuge of a theorist, but a fact of life.” (As if one could sensibly distinguish between the two.)
In would appear that Caroll is referring to real world in terms of Philosophical Realism.
You need to confirm this?
Does Caroll believe reality exist independent of human minds?
From an anti-Philosophical_Realism plus a QM, he would not have stated, “Sure, the moon exists when you’re not looking at it" in the absolute sense.