Re Morality: Is a Software Program Objectively Real?

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Skepdick
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Re: Re Morality: Is a Software Program Objectively Real?

Post by Skepdick »

popeye1945 wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:33 pm
Skepdick wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:27 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:01 pm If it is an object, it is considered objectively real.
Even if it's not an object it's considered objectively real.

Gravity is not an object, but a phenomenon. The phenomenon is objectively real.
You do not experience gravity as bent space but its effect which is weight.
Uhuh. Weight is not an object either, but we consider it objectively real.
popeye1945
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Re: Re Morality: Is a Software Program Objectively Real?

Post by popeye1945 »

Skepdick wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:39 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:33 pm
Skepdick wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:27 pm
Even if it's not an object it's considered objectively real.

Gravity is not an object, but a phenomenon. The phenomenon is objectively real.
You do not experience gravity as bent space but its effect which is weight.
Uhuh. Weight is not an object either, but we consider it objectively real.
I just stated that what we call objectively real is not necessarily what is but what is apparent, in fitting with apparent reality and as opposed to ultimate reality. In the absence of a biological subject, there is nothing objects, weight, or women----lol!!
Last edited by popeye1945 on Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Skepdick
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Re: Re Morality: Is a Software Program Objectively Real?

Post by Skepdick »

popeye1945 wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:43 pm
Skepdick wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:39 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:33 pm

You do not experience gravity as bent space but its effect which is weight.
Uhuh. Weight is not an object either, but we consider it objectively real.
I just stated that what we call objectively real is not necessarily what is but what is apparent, in fitting with apparent reality and as opposed to ultimate reality.
Whatever. I am merely pointing out that objectivity is not (only) about objects.

There are things which are NOT objects (physical forces!) which are objective.
popeye1945
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Re: Re Morality: Is a Software Program Objectively Real?

Post by popeye1945 »

Skepdick wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:46 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:43 pm
Skepdick wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:39 pm
Uhuh. Weight is not an object either, but we consider it objectively real.
I just stated that what we call objectively real is not necessarily what is but what is apparent, in fitting with apparent reality and as opposed to ultimate reality.
Whatever. I am merely pointing out that objectivity is not (only) about objects.

There are things which are NOT objects (physical forces!) which are objective.
Yes, I see, so, what is objective is what we experience, which makes it all biologically dependent. In the same sense as all meaning is biologically dependent. You are right, I take your point.
Skepdick
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Re: Re Morality: Is a Software Program Objectively Real?

Post by Skepdick »

popeye1945 wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:53 pm Yes, I see, so, what is objective is what we experience, which makes it all biologically dependent.
I don't know if that's true. Maybe the panpsychists are right and biology is coincidental, not incidental.
Skepdick
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Re: Re Morality: Is a Software Program Objectively Real?

Post by Skepdick »

popeye1945 wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:53 pm Yes, I see, so, what is objective is what we experience, which makes it all biologically dependent.
I don't know if that's true. Maybe the panpsychists are right and biology is coincidental, not incidental.
popeye1945
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Re: Re Morality: Is a Software Program Objectively Real?

Post by popeye1945 »

Skepdick wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:00 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:53 pm Yes, I see, so, what is objective is what we experience, which makes it all biologically dependent.
I don't know if that's true. Maybe the panpsychists are right and biology is coincidental, not incidental.
Please expand upon your statement. I do not understand the statement. By the way you have a double post.
Skepdick
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Re: Re Morality: Is a Software Program Objectively Real?

Post by Skepdick »

popeye1945 wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:19 pm Please expand upon your statement. I do not understand the statement. By the way you have a double post.
What requires expanding?

Panpsychism proclaims that "mind" is a fundamental property of reality. Everything, everywhere is an experiencing subject and not just biological organisms.

If panpsychism is, in fact, true then the subject-object distinction becomes meaningless. Your experiences may not be all that different from the experiences of a rock; or an atomic particle. Biology is not a factor.

Of course, nobody has a clue how to confirm; or disconfirm it.

The subject/object distinction has social/conversational utility, but it's by no mean representative of reality. After all the subject is itself an object, no? When I am experiencing myself am I subject; or object; or both; or neither? When I die do I stop being a subject and become an object? These questions doesn't matter! We use those words for conversational clarity - they don't bestow any ontological status.
popeye1945
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Re: Re Morality: Is a Software Program Objectively Real?

Post by popeye1945 »

Skepdick wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:23 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:19 pm Please expand upon your statement. I do not understand the statement. By the way you have a double post.
What requires expanding?

Panpsychism proclaims that "mind" is a fundamental property of reality. Everything, everywhere is an experiencing subject and not just biological organisms.

If panpsychism is, in fact, true then the subject-object distinction becomes meaningless. Your experiences may not be all that different from the experiences of a rock; or an atomic particle. Biology is not a factor.

Of course, nobody has a clue how to confirm or disconfirm it.

The subject/object distinction has social/conversational utility, but it's by no mean representative of reality. After all the subject is itself an object, no? When I am experiencing myself am I subject; or object; or both; or neither? When I die do I stop being a subject and become an object? These questions doesn't matter! We use those words for conversational clarity - they don't bestow any ontological status.
Yes, subject and object are indivisible, but panpsychism claims that an object is a consciousness on the same level as a biological subject? It is a bit like poetic license I guess, the imagination with wings. That you experience yourself as neither subject or object I very much doubt, or you've tapped into something I would very much like to hear more of.
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