There are Objective Moral Facts

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Veritas Aequitas
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Re: There are Objective Moral Facts

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Alexander_Reiswich wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 4:12 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 2:50 am This is like developing a specific skill-set which must entail continual improvements of the neural correlates within the brain, mind and body via theories and practices.
Exactly -- it's a philosophy for self-improvement.
In other words, FSK theory is only applicable when people are already willing to become better human beings and simply want to gain deeper insight into the evolutionary / physiological / neurological foundation of our moral intuitions and cultural best practices.
Exactly .. Morality is a Philosophy that encourages and facilitates self-development of one's moral quotient and competence so that the individual will be spontaneously moral rather than being threatened by punishments from laws or religious command not to commit evil acts.

It is not a matter of waiting for people to be willing to become better.
Rather humanity must influence every or the majority humans to initiate their own moral development [moral skill set entailing the rewiring the relevant neural connections] naturally and voluntarily without force.

Given the current psychological state of the majority, this self-initiation is not likely to happen with the current or next few generations. This possibility of self-developing moral competence would be realizable after the next few generations in alignment with the current trend of the exponential and expansion of advance knowledge [neurosciences, genetics, genomics, molecular biology and the likes] and technology.
But it can't be used to resolve disputes, to determine ethical standards and guidelines for organizations, industry and public institutions, to evaluate existing laws and derive new ones on the basis of "objective moral facts" and so on.
The ultimate vision of developing every individual's moral competence is to prevent disputes from arising in the first place, so there is no [minimal] disputes of resolve.

In setting up a credible moral FSK, one of the critical steps is to verify and justify objective moral facts empirically so that they can be used as standards to guide moral progress.

In the course of progress, these moral standards can be relied upon to resolve disputes if they arise. But the ultimate goal is to achieve a high self-regulated state such that there will no [or minimal] moral related disputes to attend to.
But talking of "objective moral facts" implies that all these things should be possible. As such, moral terminology seems inappropriate. But we can agree to disagree.
Not sure of your point?
Yes, objective moral facts, e.g. the inherent 'ought-not-ness-to-kill-humans' potential is possible and realizable.
Since it is an objective moral fact, it must be a moral terminology.

Actually [assuming you are a normal average person], the inherent 'ought-not-ness-to-kill-humans' potential is existing as a fact [biological algorithm], real and active in your self.
This why you are not having the impulse to kill another human at this moment, thus you are a morally competent person in this sense re this particular moral fact.
In this case, your 'ought-ness-to-kill' is effectively suppressed and modulated by your 'ought-not-ness-to-kill-humans' inhibitors.

I presume you are aware? you can be programmed to kill humans quite easily via specific brainwashing techniques where your inherent 'ought-not-ness-to-kill-humans' inhibitors are weakened thus allowing your inherent 'ought-ness-to-kill' potential to be activated and directed to kill humans or specific humans.
In this case the inherent 'ought-ness-to-kill' and 'ought-not-ness-to-kill-humans' are real to the extent they can be manipulated towards specific goals [output].

But those who do the brainwashing merely have intuitive knowledge of these things, so they cannot be justified as facts.

As I had defined, whatever is fact is conditioned upon a specific FSK.
Thus when the 'ought-not-ness-to-kill-humans' is verified and justified via the scientific FSK and then conditioned within the moral FSK, they are objective moral facts.

These objective moral facts are falsifiable in cases of brainwashing, psychopaths [murderers and serial killers], murder in rage of passion, and the likes.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: There are Objective Moral Facts

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

popeye1945 wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:41 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 4:54 pm I was wondering of Veritas Aequitas could make a simple list of a handful of "moral facts" for us to discuss?

Let me start...

Some people do not like the idea of dying.
I second the motion!!!
Here is a case of objective moral fact from the above post;

VA: "I presume you are aware? you can be programmed to kill humans quite easily via specific brainwashing techniques where your inherent 'ought-not-ness-to-kill-humans' inhibitors are weakened thus allowing your inherent 'ought-ness-to-kill' potential to be activated and directed to kill humans or specific humans.
In this case the inherent 'ought-ness-to-kill' and 'ought-not-ness-to-kill-humans' are real to the extent they can be manipulated towards specific goals [output].

But those who do the brainwashing merely have intuitive knowledge of these things, so they cannot be justified as facts.

As I had defined, whatever is fact is conditioned upon a specific FSK.
Thus when the 'ought-not-ness-to-kill-humans' is verified and justified via the scientific FSK and then conditioned within the moral FSK, they are objective moral facts.

These objective moral facts are falsifiable in cases of brainwashing, psychopaths [murderers and serial killers], murder in rage of passion, and the likes."

To qualify as an objective moral fact, the above must be verified and justified empirically.
In the case of 'ought-not-ness-to-kill-humans', it is represent by its specific physical referents, i.e. the physical brain, neurons, algorithms, neural correlates, DNA, atoms and quarks.
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Re: There are Objective Moral Facts

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The VA guide to argument construction...
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popeye1945
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Re: There are Objective Moral Facts

Post by popeye1945 »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:04 am
popeye1945 wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:41 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 4:54 pm I was wondering of Veritas Aequitas could make a simple list of a handful of "moral facts" for us to discuss?

Let me start...

Some people do not like the idea of dying.
I second the motion!!!
Here is a case of objective moral fact from the above post;
VA: "I presume you are aware? you can be programmed to kill humans quite easily via specific brainwashing techniques where your inherent 'ought-not-ness-to-kill-humans' inhibitors are weakened thus allowing your inherent 'ought-ness-to-kill' potential to be activated and directed to kill humans or specific humans.
In this case the inherent 'ought-ness-to-kill' and 'ought-not-ness-to-kill-humans' are real to the extent they can be manipulated towards specific goals [output]. But those who do brainwashing merely have intuitive knowledge of these things, so they cannot be justified as facts.
As I had defined, whatever is fact is conditioned upon a specific FSK.
Thus, when the 'ought-not-ness-to-kill-humans' is verified and justified via the scientific FSK and then conditioned within the moral FSK, they are objective moral facts.

These objective moral facts are falsifiable in cases of brainwashing, psychopaths [murderers and serial killers], murder in rage of passion, and the likes." To qualify as an objective moral fact, the above must be verified and justified empirically.
In the case of 'ought-not-ness-to-kill-humans', it is represented by its specific physical referents, i.e. the physical brain, neurons, algorithms, neural correlates, DNA, atoms and quarks.
You are talking about the ability to influence the subjective state of a given individual, one can alter the beliefs and sentiments of anyone's subjective state, but this does not make the beliefs or sentiments objective. The physical world is utterly meaningless, experience, feelings, thought, meanings, truth, and falsehood are interpretations of biological experience and are necessarily subjective. Once the subject consciousness has experienced these and thus acquired them, he can then attribute them to the properties of the physical world otherwise the physical world remains meaningless. Subjective consciousness is the measure and meaning of all things; it lives in its own dream world of experiential interpretations or biological readouts. Objectivity is taken from the word object, meaning the physically manifested. Morality is a sentiment; a feeling, objects do not have feelings or sentiments thus there are no objective moral facts.
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Re: There are Objective Moral Facts

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:06 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:04 am
popeye1945 wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:41 pm I second the motion!!!
Here is a case of objective moral fact from the above post;
VA: "I presume you are aware? you can be programmed to kill humans quite easily via specific brainwashing techniques where your inherent 'ought-not-ness-to-kill-humans' inhibitors are weakened thus allowing your inherent 'ought-ness-to-kill' potential to be activated and directed to kill humans or specific humans.
In this case the inherent 'ought-ness-to-kill' and 'ought-not-ness-to-kill-humans' are real to the extent they can be manipulated towards specific goals [output]. But those who do brainwashing merely have intuitive knowledge of these things, so they cannot be justified as facts.
As I had defined, whatever is fact is conditioned upon a specific FSK.
Thus, when the 'ought-not-ness-to-kill-humans' is verified and justified via the scientific FSK and then conditioned within the moral FSK, they are objective moral facts.

These objective moral facts are falsifiable in cases of brainwashing, psychopaths [murderers and serial killers], murder in rage of passion, and the likes." To qualify as an objective moral fact, the above must be verified and justified empirically.
In the case of 'ought-not-ness-to-kill-humans', it is represented by its specific physical referents, i.e. the physical brain, neurons, algorithms, neural correlates, DNA, atoms and quarks.
You are talking about the ability to influence the subjective state of a given individual, one can alter the beliefs and sentiments of anyone's subjective state, but this does not make the beliefs or sentiments objective. The physical world is utterly meaningless, experience, feelings, thought, meanings, truth, and falsehood are interpretations of biological experience and are necessarily subjective. Once the subject consciousness has experienced these and thus acquired them, he can then attribute them to the properties of the physical world otherwise the physical world remains meaningless.

Subjective consciousness is the measure and meaning of all things; it lives in its own dream world of experiential interpretations or biological readouts.

Objectivity is taken from the word object, meaning the physically manifested.
Morality is a sentiment; a feeling, objects do not have feelings or sentiments thus there are no objective moral facts.
You are too fast in jumping to your conclusion.

You need to define 'what is objectivity'.
What is your definition of 'objectivity' in the philosophical sense [since this is a Philosophical Forum].

My 'what is objectivity' is the same as the following;
  • Objectivity_(philosophy)
    In philosophy, objectivity is the concept of truth independent from individual subjectivity (bias caused by one's perception, emotions, or imagination).
    A proposition is considered to have objective truth when its truth conditions are met without bias caused by the mind of a sentient being.
    Scientific objectivity refers to the ability to judge without partiality or external influence.
    Objectivity in the moral framework calls for moral codes to be assessed based on the well-being of the people in the society that follow it.[1]
    Moral objectivity also calls for moral codes to be compared to one another through a set of universal facts and not through subjectivity.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivity_(philosophy)
Morality is a sentiment; a feeling, objects do not have feelings or sentiments thus there are no objective moral facts.
Morality like, for example, intelligence is a function of the self activated mainly from the physical brain of humans for the well-being of the individual.
There are moral sentiments [feelings - sympathy -empathy, compassions] and moral thoughts which are merely mental expressions of the inherent moral function.

It is undeniable the moral function is represented by it potential, structures, physical elements in the brain, i.e. the neurons, the neural algorithms, the related genes, DNA, atoms and quarks.
It is these physical moral elements that are the objective moral facts, not the feelings that are expressed from those objective moral facts.

As with scientific objectivity [see above] with its objective scientific facts there is moral objectivity with its objective physical moral facts.
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Re: There are Objective Moral Facts

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Objectivity is that which is manifest in the physical world as physical/objects! The only thing that can create an objective physical structure, system or whatever is the SUBJECT!!
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: There are Objective Moral Facts

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:55 am Objectivity is that which is manifest in the physical world as physical/objects! The only thing that can create an objective physical structure, system or whatever is the SUBJECT!!
It seems that is your personal definition not shared by anyone else.
At least show some reference that there are others who agree with you.

You disagree with the definition of objectivity [philosophy] provided above?
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Re: There are Objective Moral Facts

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FlashDangerpants wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:37 pm The VA guide to argument construction...

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Re: There are Objective Moral Facts

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Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:28 am
popeye1945 wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:55 am Objectivity is that which is manifest in the physical world as physical/objects! The only thing that can create an objective physical structure, system or whatever is the SUBJECT!!
It seems that is your personal definition not shared by anyone else.
At least show some reference that there are others who agree with you.

You disagree with the definition of objectivity [philosophy] provided above?
I was wondering of Veritas Aequitas could make a simple list of a handful of "moral facts" for us to discuss?

Let me start...

Some people do not like the idea of dying.
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Re: There are Objective Moral Facts

Post by popeye1945 »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:28 am
popeye1945 wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:55 am Objectivity is that which is manifest in the physical world as physical/objects! The only thing that can create an objective physical structure, system or whatever is the SUBJECT!!
It seems that is your personal definition not shared by anyone else.
At least show some reference that there are others who agree with you.

You disagree with the definition of objectivity [philosophy] provided above?
Provide this definition, and if it makes sense, I will embrace it. Right now, the endless babbling on the topic never reaches a solution-read answer. You could also point out where my reasoning is faulty, seeing as you have done neither I'll assume you do not know what you are talking about. Objectivity is about the world as object experienced subjectively by a conscious subject.
Last edited by popeye1945 on Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: There are Objective Moral Facts

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Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:04 am My 'what is objectivity' is the same as the following;
  • Objectivity_(philosophy)
    In philosophy, objectivity is the concept of truth independent from individual subjectivity (bias caused by one's perception, emotions, or imagination).
    A proposition is considered to have objective truth when its truth conditions are met without bias caused by the mind of a sentient being.
That is all very well, But this is just a concept. It is idealistic actually.
Just because you can define something does not mean it is true, evident or even possible.
So wouldn't it be nice if there was such a thing, but in practice objectivity is nothing more than an aspiration.
You can define Mordor; that does not mean it exists.
And since I have asked you time and again to offer some objective facts, which you have failed to do. This could indicate that you can't support your claims.

Scientific objectivity refers to the ability to judge without partiality or external influence.
Once again. A fine aspiration, sadly seldom seen even in science.
Objectivity in the moral framework calls for moral codes to be assessed based on the well-being of the people in the society that follow it.[1]
Moral objectivity also calls for moral codes to be compared to one another through a set of universal facts and not through subjectivity.
"Calls for". get that? calls for!
IN practice morally "objective" codes have provided us with slavery and capital punishment,
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Re: There are Objective Moral Facts

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:27 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:28 am
popeye1945 wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:55 am Objectivity is that which is manifest in the physical world as physical/objects! The only thing that can create an objective physical structure, system or whatever is the SUBJECT!!
It seems that is your personal definition not shared by anyone else.
At least show some reference that there are others who agree with you.

You disagree with the definition of objectivity [philosophy] provided above?
Provide this definition, and if it makes sense, I will embrace it.
I have provided the definition earlier, i.e.
Objectivity_(philosophy)
In philosophy, objectivity is the concept of truth independent from individual subjectivity (bias caused by one's perception, emotions, or imagination).
A proposition is considered to have objective truth when its truth conditions are met without bias caused by the mind of a sentient being.
Scientific objectivity refers to the ability to judge without partiality or external influence.
Objectivity in the moral framework calls for moral codes to be assessed based on the well-being of the people in the society that follow it.[1]
Moral objectivity also calls for moral codes to be compared to one another through a set of universal facts and not through subjectivity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivity_(philosophy)
Right now, the endless babbling on the topic never reaches a solution-read answer. You could also point out where my reasoning is faulty, seeing as you have done neither I'll assume you do not know what you are talking about.
Objectivity is about the world as object experienced subjectively by a conscious subject.
In contra to your definition, Journalistic Objectivity is not about the world of objects experienced subjectively by a conscious subject.
Journalistic objectivity is a considerable notion within the discussion of journalistic professionalism.
Journalistic objectivity may refer to fairness, disinterestedness, factuality, and nonpartisanship, but most often encompasses all of these qualities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journalistic_objectivity
Objectivity in Psychiatry in not about the world of objects experienced subjectively by a conscious subject.
https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/o ... -treatment

Psychiatry Clearly Meets The `Objectivity' Test
https://psychnews.psychiatryonline.org/ ... .00400017a

My point:
Whatever is deemed objective [is a fact] must be conditioned upon a Framework and System of Knowledge [FSK] or Reality [FSR].
All FSK are conditioned upon subjects inter-agreement under various conditions.
Because of these variations in conditions, what is objective comes in degrees in relation to the credibility of the FSK.

At present, the scientific FSK [despite having its limitations] (also Mathematics FSK) is the most credible over any other FSK.
There are a different sub-FSKs within the main scientific FSK and the best of it is the standard bearer of objectivity for all other FSKs.

As such, on any question of 'objectivity' the first criteria is, what is the FSK involved.
Therefrom one can assess the degree of objectivity of the claim, based on the "credibility" of the FSK.
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Re: There are Objective Moral Facts

Post by popeye1945 »

Ok, I thought we were talking about the title topic here, are there objective moral facts, in other words what is the basis in reality for their existing independent of a conscious subject? You people have really fucked up here. Certainly, in other disciplines the meaning varies, good grief you're just babbling nonsense here. WHAT ABOUT THE HEADING, THE ACTUAL TOPIC?
Last edited by popeye1945 on Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:00 am, edited 6 times in total.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: There are Objective Moral Facts

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Sculptor wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:43 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:04 am My 'what is objectivity' is the same as the following;
  • Objectivity_(philosophy)
    In philosophy, objectivity is the concept of truth independent from individual subjectivity (bias caused by one's perception, emotions, or imagination).
    A proposition is considered to have objective truth when its truth conditions are met without bias caused by the mind of a sentient being.
That is all very well, But this is just a concept. It is idealistic actually.
Just because you can define something does not mean it is true, evident or even possible.
So wouldn't it be nice if there was such a thing, but in practice objectivity is nothing more than an aspiration.
You can define Mordor; that does not mean it exists.
And since I have asked you time and again to offer some objective facts, which you have failed to do. This could indicate that you can't support your claims.

Scientific objectivity refers to the ability to judge without partiality or external influence.
Once again. A fine aspiration, sadly seldom seen even in science.
Point is, there is no perfect absolute objectivity.
Rather objectivity comes in degree depending on the credibility of the Framework and System of Knowledge [FSK], in this case the scientific FSK.

Of course, the scientific FSK has its limitations and weaknesses [depending on which sub-scientific FSK], but what other FSKs [besides Mathematics] has better degree of objectivity than the best scientific FSK at present.

Objectivity in the moral framework calls for moral codes to be assessed based on the well-being of the people in the society that follow it.[1]
Moral objectivity also calls for moral codes to be compared to one another through a set of universal facts and not through subjectivity.
"Calls for". get that? calls for!
IN practice morally "objective" codes have provided us with slavery and capital punishment,
Nah, you are totally ignorant of what objective moral facts entail.
Morality is independent from Politics which legislates laws that imposed on all citizens.
Capital Punishment is Politics, not morality.

At present all sovereign nations has adopted the UN Slavery Convention
https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-me ... convention
that bans and made illegal all forms of slavery.
That there are real slavery being committed underground is not the point.
The point is the abolishment of slavery is now recognized as illegal which is an improvement over the state of slavery 3000 years ago.
Despite this improvement, this is still within the domain of politics.

What is Morality is related to what is going inside the brain of the individuals.
Morality is active when the individual spontaneously do not commit evil acts without any threat of punishments from the law, external authorities or from a God.
The objective moral facts are related to the physical structures, processes and potentials of ought-not-ness [to kill humans, rape, violence] in the brain that support the individual moral competence.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: There are Objective Moral Facts

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

popeye1945 wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:55 am Ok, I thought we were talking about the title topic here, are there objective moral facts, in other words what is the basis in reality for their existing independent of a conscious subject? You people have really fucked up here. Certainly, in other disciplines the meaning varies, good grief you're just babbling nonsense here. WHAT ABOUT THE HEADING, THE ACTUAL TOPIC?
No need to be provocative with 'babbling nonsense' which my points are not.
Did you read the OP - THE ACTUAL TOPIC???

Note I wrote;
My point:
1. Whatever is deemed objective [is a fact] must be conditioned upon a Framework and System of Knowledge [FSK] or Reality [FSR].
2. All FSK are conditioned upon subjects inter-agreement under various conditions.
3. Because of these variations in conditions, what is objective comes in degrees in relation to the credibility of the FSK.

What I have is a moral FSK with its specific constitution, definitions, terms, principles, processes, limitation, etc.
ALL the major inputs into this moral FSK are from the scientific FSK.
Re point 1, thus, whatever is inferred from the moral FSK are Objective Moral Facts, e.g. the 'ought-not-ness-to-kill-human' is an algorithm in the human brain that is supported by physical [objects] like neurons, neural correlates, algorithms, genes, DNA, atoms, quarks.
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