America has completely lost the plot.

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Sculptor
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Re: America has completely lost the plot.

Post by Sculptor »

DPMartin wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 2:51 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 5:43 pm
DPMartin wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 5:25 pm

in the case of the OP yes it would be a great solution, stand around waiting for children to be shot is deplorable. here is a case where those in your opinion should have guns if anyone should have guns, and the public shouldn't have guns. since when do you justify that the government should be trusted over the public.
If the public was not allowed to have guns then those children would still be alive.

in this case maybe, but the only ones who would have gun's your way in the US are the criminals.
That is bullshit. A childish and empty straw man
Criminals at the moment can own guns perfectly legally but morons in the NRA resits laws that would make it an offence for criminals to have guns.
I am advocating a law which would treat a gun like a car. It would need to be registered and a licence required to possess it. Penalties to carry with no licence would attract large sentences.
Criminals could not get a licence and would risk gaol for possession.
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henry quirk
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Re: America has completely lost the plot.

Post by henry quirk »

Criminals at the moment can own guns perfectly legally
Define criminals.

https://people.howstuffworks.com/can-fe ... states.htm

https://www.cga.ct.gov/2002/rpt/2002-R-0335.htm

In short: despite certain exemptions, convicted criminals already have heavy restrictions levied against them, and folks who may be law breakers but who haven't been arrested, charged, tried, and convicted aren't, by definition, felons and therefore are entitled to own firearms.
I am advocating a law which would treat a gun like a car. It would need to be registered and a licence required to possess it.
And this would have stopped the Uvalde classroom shooting how? The shooter, Ramos, wasn't a felon.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: America has completely lost the plot.

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

People who own guns are by definition loony, paranoid, anti-social fuckwits so who cares what they 'think'?

If the precious 'sekind amendmint' had wanted everyone to be allowed to have as many guns as they want then why didn't it just say 'every citizen must be allowed to own as many guns/weapons as they want, as powerful as they want, now and forever into the future, even when said guns/weapons can slaughter dozens/hundreds/thousands of ordinary people in a few seconds. Amen.' ?
commonsense
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Re: America has completely lost the plot.

Post by commonsense »

henry quirk wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 2:15 pm
The freedom not to be shot by a child.
The freedom to be policed by people who are not constantly shitting themselves.
The freedom of never having to think about guns or the threat of being shot.
The freedom to know that your child is safe at school.
In other words: to you, safety is freedom.
I take it that Sculptor is indicating that safety is freedom from fear.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: America has completely lost the plot.

Post by FlashDangerpants »

commonsense wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 5:55 pm
henry quirk wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 2:15 pm
The freedom not to be shot by a child.
The freedom to be policed by people who are not constantly shitting themselves.
The freedom of never having to think about guns or the threat of being shot.
The freedom to know that your child is safe at school.
In other words: to you, safety is freedom.
I take it that Sculptor is indicating that safety is freedom from fear.
We can vote for a new government and when we do that we get a government that writes the laws that we voted for. In America they get a government that can't write the laws that anyone voted for eitehr because the constitution prevents it or because there is a collection of judges who hold a disproportionately religious set of views and won't permit it.

We are free to write laws that prevent mental patients from holding dangerous firearms, and you just don't have that freedom.
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henry quirk
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Re: America has completely lost the plot.

Post by henry quirk »

Flash,

More accurately: we have a gov that's supposed to be concretely limited. There are things, expedient things, it's never supposed to do. Fundamentally: it's never supposed to encroach on any man's life, liberty, and property, and it's never supposed to sanction any citizen or group of citizens encroachin' on the lives, liberties, and properties of any other citizen or group of citizens, no matter (how good the) the reason.

Yes, that means it ought to be damned difficult to disarm a man, even if he's a whacko...or a commie.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: America has completely lost the plot.

Post by FlashDangerpants »

the imposition of restrictions is the restriction of freedoms. There is no rhetorical angle around that.
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henry quirk
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Re: America has completely lost the plot.

Post by henry quirk »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 7:44 pm the imposition of restrictions is the restriction of freedoms. There is no rhetorical angle around that.
There's no such thing as a freedom to slave, to kill, to rape, to rob, unless you wanna redefine freedom (self-direction, self-responsibility, self-reliance) and make it synonymous with license or whimsy.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: America has completely lost the plot.

Post by FlashDangerpants »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 7:47 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 7:44 pm the imposition of restrictions is the restriction of freedoms. There is no rhetorical angle around that.
There's no such thing as a freedom to slave, to kill, to rape, to rob, unless you wanna redefine freedom (self-direction, self-responsibility, self-reliance) and make it synonymous with license or whimsy.
People are free to do bad things, and to make mistakes. It's absurd to suggest that we are only free to make the correct choice.
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henry quirk
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Re: America has completely lost the plot.

Post by henry quirk »

It's absurd to suggest that we are only free to make the correct choice.
Never said that. Of course you're free to be as whimsical as you like. No body else, however, is obligated to absorb the consequences of your whimsy or sit still as the target for your whimsy.
People are free to do bad things, and to make mistakes.
And when Joe tries to rape Sally (cuz he's whimsical like that), he's also free to welcome the bullets from her 38 into his chest.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: America has completely lost the plot.

Post by FlashDangerpants »

commonsense wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 5:55 pm
henry quirk wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 2:15 pm

In other words: to you, safety is freedom.
I take it that Sculptor is indicating that safety is freedom from fear.
We can vote for a new government and when we do that we get a government that writes the laws that we voted for. In America they get a government that can't write the laws that anyone voted for eitehr because the constitution prevents it or because there is a collection of judges who hold a disproportionately religious set of views and won't permit it.

We are free to write laws that prevent mental patients from holding dangerous firearms, and you just don't have that freedom. Your right to choose is constrained which is a proscription against your liberty.

Apparently Henry doesn't view that as freedom, but he has these really weird notions about what freedom is that mostly revolve around vengeance for some reason. And every time his underwear itches he declares himself to be enslaved by vicious tyrannical tighty whiteys, so... make of that what you will.

You have the liberty to make up your own mind about what you think liberty means, Henry's attempts to impose his slave ranting vision over the top is not legitimate.
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henry quirk
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Re: America has completely lost the plot.

Post by henry quirk »

We are free to write laws that prevent mental patients from holding dangerous firearms, and you just don't have that freedom. Your right to choose is constrained which is a proscription against your liberty.
We have very different ideas about what constitutes freedom. Me, takin' away another's property, becuz, mebbe, he might do wrong with it, is not me exercisin' freedom: it's me doin' him injury. It's me declarin' him guilty in advance of a crime.
Apparently Henry doesn't view that as freedom, but he has these really weird notions about what freedom is that mostly revolve around vengeance for some reason.
No, I see a gov strippin' away property, or makin' property unavailable as tyranny. Not vengeance: self-defense (you don't really mean to suggest Sally has no right to defend herself from the whimsical rapist, do you?).
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henry quirk
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Re: America has completely lost the plot.

Post by henry quirk »

You have the liberty to make up your own mind about what you think liberty means
absolutely: and I ain't obligated to give you and your whimsy any mind

if freedom, to you, means takin' property away from those you find sketchy, by all means: get to it...really...go do that...personally...let me know how that works out for you
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: America has completely lost the plot.

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

safety is freedom.
So the moronic little twerp finally 'gets it'.
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attofishpi
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Re: America has completely lost the plot.

Post by attofishpi »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 8:21 pm No, I see a gov strippin' away property, or makin' property unavailable as tyranny. Not vengeance: self-defense (you don't really mean to suggest Sally has no right to defend herself from the whimsical rapist, do you?).
I honestly think Sally would be safer with a can of pepper spray.
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