What is Morality?

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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popeye1945
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Re: What is Morality?

Post by popeye1945 »

I stand corrected on the time scale. I however think you're confusing the survival instinct with something very different, but perhaps you can correct me here as well. Certainly, societal life is a means of survival, it is at least life-supporting or there would be little point to its existence.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: What is Morality?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

popeye1945 wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 6:39 am I stand corrected on the time scale. I however think you're confusing the survival instinct with something very different, but perhaps you can correct me here as well. Certainly, societal life is a means of survival, it is at least life-supporting or there would be little point to its existence.
I may not have been clear here, but Morality [moral potential] for me is fundamentally tied to the survival instinct which had been programmed in the first-living-one-celled thing and is embedded in all living things that evolved from those first living one-celled thing 3.5 billion years ago.
Do you deny or can you counter this point?

Why the 'humans killing of humans' is the most critical moral issue is tied to the survival instinct.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: What is Morality?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 6:58 am
popeye1945 wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 6:39 am I stand corrected on the time scale. I however think you're confusing the survival instinct with something very different, but perhaps you can correct me here as well. Certainly, societal life is a means of survival, it is at least life-supporting or there would be little point to its existence.
I may not have been clear here, but Morality [moral potential] for me is fundamentally tied to the survival instinct which had been programmed in the first-living-one-celled thing and is embedded in all living things that evolved from those first living one-celled thing 3.5 billion years ago.
Do you deny or can you counter this point?

Why the 'humans killing of humans' is the most critical moral issue is tied to the survival instinct.
Survival is a much mopre complex instinct that eating. So the first instinct is eating and therefore the urge to consume is the PrimE ThiNG THaT AlL MUst sERVice. These meagre eliminative theories alway seem to end up needing one of those.

Therefore Greed is Good and survival as an instinct only exists to ensure the organism can perform additional feats of consumption.
DPMartin
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Re: What is Morality?

Post by DPMartin »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 5:16 am
DPMartin wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:08 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 5:34 am
It is not that I watch the news too much, it is that you research and read too little, too narrow and too shallow.
it sounds like media rhetoric to me, that's all. WMD's, world this, change mankind that. none of what you say is original. sorry morals are the agreements between men, or people if you must, and unless you want to give everyone a lobotomy, agreements will be broken because it man's nature to do so.

hence solitary confinement for those who can't even keep an agreement to not be dangerous to those around them.
morals are the agreements between men, or people??

Do you have references to support your claim?
sure marriage agreements, business agreements, household agreements, social agreements, national agreements (law) international agreements, also known as law, contracts, treaties, marriage vows, a hand shake, walk down the street with the expectation of not being mugged or robbed or run over by a vehicle. heck you might meet a potential partner in a bar, and there will have to be agreement for anything farther.

just about every human interaction and transaction requires some sort of agreement for all parties involved to be satisfied. and any of those agreements can be broken.

if you agree to obey the law or any other agreement (a set of morals) then everyone else that also agrees to the same can go about their daily lives with certain expectation or adherence to those laws and or agreements (set of morals) what ever they may be.
popeye1945
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Re: What is Morality?

Post by popeye1945 »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 6:58 am
popeye1945 wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 6:39 am I stand corrected on the time scale. I however think you're confusing the survival instinct with something very different, but perhaps you can correct me here as well. Certainly, societal life is a means of survival, it is at least life-supporting or there would be little point to its existence.
I may not have been clear here, but Morality [moral potential] for me is fundamentally tied to the survival instinct which had been programmed in the first-living-one-celled thing and is embedded in all living things that evolved from those first living one-celled thing 3.5 billion years ago.
Do you deny or can you counter this point?

Why the 'humans killing of humans' is the most critical moral issue is tied to the survival instinct.
Veritas,
I think it a little off-topic, instead of looking at what is the nature of morality how it arises, and from what is it constituted, we are branching out into the nature of its applications. A natural progression I suppose, but have we reached an agreement as to the nature of morality? Certainly morality does lead or enhances survival when it is elemental in the formation of a social contract of like individuals. This killer instinct is nothing but hunger and the necessity of life lives upon life, metaphorically, the snake consuming its own tail.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: What is Morality?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

DPMartin wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 3:44 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 5:16 am
DPMartin wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:08 pm

it sounds like media rhetoric to me, that's all. WMD's, world this, change mankind that. none of what you say is original. sorry morals are the agreements between men, or people if you must, and unless you want to give everyone a lobotomy, agreements will be broken because it man's nature to do so.

hence solitary confinement for those who can't even keep an agreement to not be dangerous to those around them.
morals are the agreements between men, or people??

Do you have references to support your claim?
sure marriage agreements, business agreements, household agreements, social agreements, national agreements (law) international agreements, also known as law, contracts, treaties, marriage vows, a hand shake, walk down the street with the expectation of not being mugged or robbed or run over by a vehicle. heck you might meet a potential partner in a bar, and there will have to be agreement for anything farther.

just about every human interaction and transaction requires some sort of agreement for all parties involved to be satisfied. and any of those agreements can be broken.
The above agreements has nothing to do with morality.
if you agree to obey the law or any other agreement (a set of morals) then everyone else that also agrees to the same can go about their daily lives with certain expectation or adherence to those laws and or agreements (set of morals) what ever they may be.
Legal Laws are political matters which has nothing to do with morality.

1. Btw, are you in a state where YOU have evil impulses but you don't go out to kill anyone, rape or commit all sorts of violence because you agrees with the law or some external 'moral' oughts.
If yes, then you are sick and psychotic in some degrees and should seek help.

2. On the other hand, one should be very confident and proud that one is inherently morally competent to act 'good' with no current impulse to kill or rape people. In this case you are spontaneously and naturally a moral person not because the law threaten you to comply and you agree with it.

So which is you current state> 1 or 2.

No human is perfect, thus in the rarest occasion one may be driven in rage to commit violence and many do have the mindfulness to stop short of executing the evil act. In this case, one should find ways to self-develop one's moral competence so that one will never be triggered to have any impulse to commit evil acts.

But there is a large % of people with weak moral competence due to an inactive moral potential and they will readily kill, rape and commit violent at any moment when triggered.
For these people we need to law [criminal] to deter them and there is no question of whether they agree with the law or not.
Even with external threats of serious penalties [capital punishments], those with weak moral competence will commit evil acts.

Thus morality is not about agreements, laws and other social agreement.
Morality is about the moral potential within the individual[s] that need to be developed with continual improvements so that one can act morally spontaneously without coercion from some external authority or laws with penalties.
Last edited by Veritas Aequitas on Sun May 22, 2022 8:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: What is Morality?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

popeye1945 wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 11:59 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 6:58 am
popeye1945 wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 6:39 am I stand corrected on the time scale. I however think you're confusing the survival instinct with something very different, but perhaps you can correct me here as well. Certainly, societal life is a means of survival, it is at least life-supporting or there would be little point to its existence.
I may not have been clear here, but Morality [moral potential] for me is fundamentally tied to the survival instinct which had been programmed in the first-living-one-celled thing and is embedded in all living things that evolved from those first living one-celled thing 3.5 billion years ago.
Do you deny or can you counter this point?

Why the 'humans killing of humans' is the most critical moral issue is tied to the survival instinct.
Veritas,
I think it a little off-topic, instead of looking at what is the nature of morality how it arises, and from what is it constituted, we are branching out into the nature of its applications. A natural progression I suppose, but have we reached an agreement as to the nature of morality? Certainly morality does lead or enhances survival when it is elemental in the formation of a social contract of like individuals. This killer instinct is nothing but hunger and the necessity of life lives upon life, metaphorically, the snake consuming its own tail.
I believe I am on the right track.
I stated there is the Pure and Applied aspect to Morality and Ethics.
What is most critical is the applications [APPLIED] and their positive results to humanity as guided by the PURE theoretical aspects of morality.

I understand the current definition and interpretation of what is morality which to me a merely pseudo-morality.
Morality-proper is not about social contract end up with traditions or political laws.

Morality is critically an individual thing, i.e. the development of one's inherent moral potential in terms of one's moral compass, conscience, moral quotient and the natural state of being good spontaneously.
See my post above to D P Martin.


Humans are programmed with the very primal and powerful forces of the 4Fs, i.e. food, fight, flight, fornicate [f..k] to facilitate survival.
The 4Fs are necessarily embedded permanently in the brain but these impulses got out of control when humans were endowed with the necessary self-consciousness, ego, etc.
Thus the moral potential gradually unfolds to counter the deviant forces of the 4Fs.

Analogically,
These 4Fs and other strong emotions are like the terrible forces of a river system which cause floods that kill millions. To control and modulate the forces dams [inhibitors and modulator] are built on various critical spots.
The same is going on the brain [you stated you are knowledgeable of the brain inside out?] with morality, where various critical neural inhibitors at various points [neural correlates and networks] are established [in the prefrontal cortex] to modulate the powerful forces of the 4Fs [from the very wild reptilian brain].
Iwannaplato
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Re: What is Morality?

Post by Iwannaplato »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 7:07 am Humans are programmed with the very primal and powerful forces of the 4Fs, i.e. food, fight, flight, fornicate [f..k] to facilitate survival.
The general issue I have with VA's model is that while he removes God from the equation he sees the self from a very religious perspective. Here were have a mere detail, but it is a telling one. He uses the verb 'fornicate' which etymologically means to have sex with prostitutes, is generally a pejorative term for sex, and means consensual extramarital sex.
The 4Fs are necessarily embedded permanently in the brain but these impulses got out of control when humans were endowed with the necessary self-consciousness, ego, etc.
Thus the moral potential gradually unfolds to counter the deviant forces of the 4Fs.
And for those of us in much of the West we can hear echoes of the Christian judgments of the self, with this beast within that must be controlled. You can see in his response to DP Martin that he thinks if you merely follow the law but in fact really want to rape and kill you are psychotic. But his plan/schema is to have an internal control - rather than say an integration or sublimation, as a couple of other options out there. IOW you still have this beast within but it is held in check by other parts of the self/brain.
Analogically,
These 4Fs and other strong emotions are like the terrible forces of a river system which cause floods that kill millions.
It's analogical he says, yes, though why his analogy would include killing millions. Most people who run on just their reptilian brain, without moderation of the limbic system and prefrontal cortex do not kill milions. They run amok, at worst, and kill a small number. YOu have to have the so called higher functions of the brain involved to kill millions. Hitler for example used extremely bodily control of emotions in his speeches and the Nazi used high tech extremely rational thinking to produce their solution.
To control and modulate the forces dams [inhibitors and modulator] are built on various critical spots.
The same is going on the brain [you stated you are knowledgeable of the brain inside out?] with morality, where various critical neural inhibitors at various points [neural correlates and networks] are established [in the prefrontal cortex] to modulate the powerful forces of the 4Fs [from the very wild reptilian brain].
And no mention of the limbic system. No sense that one need not have an internal police system.

I see little different from DP's model except that VA wants to move the inhibition from the state to an internal state. He has strong judgments, negative ones, of emotions and urges and desire, just as most organized religions do. He thinks that part of our brain will always be sick and psychotic, but we can control this with other parts of the brain. Typlical beast within religious thinking in an atheistic schema.

Of course folk psychological theories of the self also have these qualities and many other belief sysems. And it should be noted that not being for his system does not entail that I undervalue empathy or want to live like some depictions of the Vikings.
popeye1945
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Re: What is Morality?

Post by popeye1945 »

In essence, morality is that art thou. Self-identity with the identity of others, or care.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: What is Morality?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

popeye1945 wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 4:40 pm In essence, morality is that art thou. Self-identity with the identity of others, or care.
The above seems too general but insufficient and that could be claimed by people of evil like Hitler and the current evil dictators who only has interests and 'care' for a selected group [restricted self-identity] of people.

Note in the OP [with some changes],
For a start, I propose the definition of 'What is Ethics?" to be in a wider sense extended to the human species;
ethics as "as a framework and system encompassing a set of concepts, principles, methodology, strategies that guide us in unfolding the inherent moral potential [determining what behavior helps or harms humans] to ensure the preservation of the species".

Ethics is solely applicable to humans only and extended to non-humans, only where necessary to achieve its main purpose.

Morality is the PURE aspect of Ethics-in-General.
popeye1945
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Re: What is Morality?

Post by popeye1945 »

That are thou is taken from the Upanishads, Hindu spiritual literature. If you think about it unless you identify that the self in you with the self in other compassion does not arise. For most people I think this is experienced across species, then knowing the other creature is capable of the same suffering as you are. Indeed I believe it is the seed of morality and without morality, there is no society. Indeed, historically people have limited their compassion by seeing others as absolute others. In fact, that is the first principle of propaganda during times of war-making, making others absolute and inferior. America acceptionalism is this very process and makes America a global problem.
CHNOPS
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Re: What is Morality?

Post by CHNOPS »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 4:35 am
CHNOPS wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 5:30 pm Ethics is just the study of Moral.

The important thing, then, is understand what Moral is.

Moral is the knowledge of what is Good and Bad.

So, what is Good and what is Bad?

That last question is what u need to think.

Thinking about the others definitions is just a waste of time.

Here are a lot of users that are too complex to understand the real philosophy.

Think like a cientist.

Simplify.

Tell me, in a simple way, what you think Good or Bad is?
Morality is fundamentally about Good and Evil [bad is too limited].
Morality ultimately is more about actions than about knowledge.

In the context of Morality 'what is good' is 'what is not-evil'.

Evil is related to human acts that are net-negative to the well being of the individual[s] and therefrom to humanity and thus is a threat to the preservation of the human species.
I dont speak english, maybe the right world is Evil yes.

You can expand that notion of Good and Evil. Dont think too much like a living beeing....

If you dont expand that notion, then you have the humandking like is right now......

where people have differences about what is "well being".

If i say to you that hiting my wife make our family more "well being" because she do all the homeworks inmediatly, what do you say? Why this is not Good?

I'm a programmer, so, i understand everything in terms of 1 or 0.

You need to reach to that, in order to really understand what Good and Evil is.
Iwannaplato
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Re: What is Morality?

Post by Iwannaplato »

“Morality is simply the attitude we adopt towards people whom we personally dislike.” ~ An Ideal Husband by Oscar Wilde
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: What is Morality?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

popeye1945 wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:50 pm That are thou is taken from the Upanishads, Hindu spiritual literature. If you think about it unless you identify that the self in you with the self in other compassion does not arise. For most people I think this is experienced across species, then knowing the other creature is capable of the same suffering as you are.
Indeed I believe it is the seed of morality and without morality, there is no society. Indeed, historically people have limited their compassion by seeing others as absolute others. In fact, that is the first principle of propaganda during times of war-making, making others absolute and inferior. America acceptionalism is this very process and makes America a global problem.
Generally it is "Thou art that" Tat Tvam Asi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tat_Tvam_Asi

My background is Eastern Philosophy so I am reasonably familiar with the above.
I started with Advaita Vedanta but has moved more toward Buddhism-proper which is a 180 degree paradigm shift from Vedanta.

The concept of "Thou art that" Tat Tvam Asi do support very high levels of morality but not in totality and the ultimate of morality.

In some aspects of "Thou art that" Tat Tvam Asi it does veer off to Asceticism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asceticism
Asceticism is a lifestyle characterized by abstinence from sensual pleasures, often for the purpose of pursuing spiritual goals.
and celibacy,
Celibacy (from Latin caelibatus) is the state of voluntarily being unmarried, sexually abstinent, or both, usually for religious reasons. It is often in association with the role of a religious official or devotee.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celibacy
while the fundamental of morality is leveraged on the survival of the species.

One of the element [note there are other elements] of morality is mirror neurons.
A mirror neuron is a neuron that fires both when an animal acts and when the animal observes the same action performed by another.[1][2][3] Thus, the neuron "mirrors" the behavior of the other, as though the observer were itself acting.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron
The problem is at present, the there is insufficient active mirror neurons [recent in evolution] in the majority of people.
When the mirror neurons are sufficient and effective, the person who who observes [commit] the same act and sufferings in others will at the same time have their pain nerves be triggered with the same terrible sufferings spontaneously in the brain.
This is the feedback control for continuous improvements in morality.

"Thou art that" aka "Tat Tvam Asi" will facilitate morality, but in general, it is not imperative for morality.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: What is Morality?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

CHNOPS wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 1:57 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 4:35 am Morality is fundamentally about Good and Evil [bad is too limited].
Morality ultimately is more about actions than about knowledge.

In the context of Morality 'what is good' is 'what is not-evil'.

Evil is related to human acts that are net-negative to the well being of the individual[s] and therefrom to humanity and thus is a threat to the preservation of the human species.
I dont speak english, maybe the right world is Evil yes.

You can expand that notion of Good and Evil. Dont think too much like a living beeing....

If you dont expand that notion, then you have the humandking like is right now......

where people have differences about what is "well being".

If i say to you that hiting my wife make our family more "well being" because she do all the homeworks inmediatly, what do you say? Why this is not Good?

I'm a programmer, so, i understand everything in terms of 1 or 0.

You need to reach to that, in order to really understand what Good and Evil is.
What you are presenting is consequentialism which is not morality-proper.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consequentialism/

Morality-proper is about being free, acting voluntarily and spontaneously.

In your above case, hitting your wife itself first has an impact on the well-being of your wife. As such you have not done the right thing morally due to your moral incompetence.

In morality proper, you will personally need to develop your moral competence to the level where you will naturally and spontaneously NEVER hit your wife or anyone.
If the family well being is threatened with your wife's inefficiencies, then you have to find ways to help her to improve her efficiency.
If it is her nature that is the best she can do, then you have to accept her for what she is. At the worst it is divorce and find a wife who can meet your expectations.

The problem at present is the majority of people are not morally competent and it will take [if we start now] 50, 100, 150 or more years before the average person is morally competent.
So in the meantime we have to bear with the present state or let the laws or God to deter evil acts.

My point is we need to understand what is morality-proper so that we can drive the morality engine [program] to achieve its intended purpose efficiently.

From the programming perspective, we have not defined the proper objective of what is morality, as such the programming will be a mess and leads no where.
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