Our ancestors invented thousands of gods and other supernatural things - and believed in their existence as fervently as you believe in your god. But, of course, your god is the only real one.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 10:06 pmActually, I can see you don't.Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 6:07 am Again, I understand why you want to pile up factual assertions about your invented god.
You haven't figured out that Theists do not regard God as "invented." It seems like you cannot imagine anybody thinking in any way that you do not, so you are inclined to imagine they are operating in some kind of knowing bad-faith.
That there are no moral facts doesn't mean morality is dead. And that a non-moral premise can't entail a moral conclusion is a logical - not an ontological - issue.
But we are not. We believe what we say.
Not at all. I have already admitted that IF you were right in your ontology, then morality would indeed be dead. I just believe your ontology is completely wrong.It's because you can't afford to recognise the blank fact of the is/ought barrier: a non-moral premise can't entail a moral conclusion.
This is a bald and perfectly circular assertion that establishes nothing whatsoever.Of course. There could be no one else to do it.So your argument is: there is objective value, because a god is the creator and assignor of objective value to everything.
Not so. As with beauty and the beholder, value is in the eye of the valuer, and is necessarily subjective, even if the valuer is a god.That's assumptive on your part. I don't agree.And, anyway, your use of the expression 'objective value' says it all. There can be no such thing.
Elaborated in any way, the argument remains a non sequitur:
And I'm certain you'll find out that God doesn't agree with that either.
No, that's not the argument at all.'This god thinks X is morally wrong; therefore, X is morally wrong.'
It goes, "Everything that exists was created by God. He knows what He created things for, and what their actual value is. Nobody else created things, so they're guessing unless He tells them. But what He knows the purpose and value of something He created is, that's it."
Action X is not consistent with a creator-god's purpose/nature/etc; therefore, action X is morally wrong. (Nul point.)
We don't know if things are morally right or wrong. We believe they are, and have reasons for doing so that aren't at all arbitrary. Perhaps you can't explain why rape and other atrocities are morally wrong unless a god tells you they are. But I think that's a morally bankrupt state to be in. It's weirdly inhuman.
But your alternative is this: Nobody created the universe, and nobody ever knows if or why rape, pedophelia, female circumcision or slavery are wrong, beyond the arbitrary declaration of some particular society or individual.
And that is why you've twice avoided answering the question about how you know these things are wrong. If your theory is correct, you actually have NO way of knowing that.