And my argument about Rand revolves not around the points she raised but around the manner in which she herself championed individuals "owning" themselves. And owning their points. Like you sans God. But then the manner in which she demanded that others share her own views about, well, everything. Just like [from my frame of mind] you do here. I'm sure the ARI has an official policy on gun control and abortion. And I'm sure that collectively all individuals who call themselves Objectivists had damn well better share it.
henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 1:49 am As I say: I'm no fan of Rand. I'm not an Objectivist. If she championed
ownness good on her.
How is this really relevant to the point I am making here? How are your moral convictions --
as convictions -- regarding bazookas and abortion really any different from hers? Aside from your Reason being derived from God's Reality and her own Reason being derived from a No God "metaphysical" philosophy rooted in the objective Self?
henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 1:49 am Rand was pushy and so am I but, unlike Rand...
henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed May 04, 2022 1:50 amI have no time, no resources, and, most importantly, no
inclination to police the world, and not you or anyone else here can point to any post of mine that sez otherwise.
What exactly have I done to assert a right to tell folks what they can and can't do beyond my talkin' about natural rights? And what power have I exercised to get folks to recognize natural rights beyond debate and conversation?
Okay, let's explore this in regard to buying and selling bazookas.
You live in a community where in "owning" yourself, you conclude that buying and selling bazookas is a "natural right". But another Deist in that community argues that in "owning" herself she concludes that buying and selling bazookas is not a "natural right", but an irrational frame of mind. Same God, same access to Reason. But completely conflicting conclusions.
And you may not be inclined to police the world, but in your community those who, in "owning" themselves and in rejecting the right of private citizens to buy and sell bazookas -- or any gums at all -- may be in a position of power to pass laws that take yours away.
So, you can insist that your moral convictions here are just about debate and conversation but out in the world that we live in it can get considerably more existential.
Like I said...how can he posit the existence of a God, the God, my God, insist that this God imparts in him the capacity to "follow the dictates of Reason and Nature" and then not connect the dots between this God and his own moral and political dogmas?
henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 1:49 am And like I said...
henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:26 pmWell before I shifted to deism (sumthin' I did only three or four years back), I recognized myself as a free will with a right to myself...hell, I've known these things my entire life...as a child, well before I had the language to express it, I understood I had causal power; I understood I was my own and it was not right, when I'd done no wrong, to be used against my will.
Reason, as I grew up, brought me to the recognition that as I am a free will with a right to myself, so it is for all other folks too.
As I say: I've known these things my entire life and, as various verifiable conversations and debates in-forum, stretchin' back
years, illustrate, I was an advocate and defender for these ideas as an atheist, not a deist.
It was my bein' a free will with an inalienable claim to my life, liberty, and property (and conversations with a thoughtful friend) that brought me, relatively late in life, to God. In other words: bein' a free will with natural rights, I came to see atheism's rudderless, skipperless, take on reality as the vacant thing it is: explainin' nuthin' about nuthin' to no one, demandin' I
de-recognize myself as a free will with natural rights and
accept myself as a cog with no claim to himself.
A prime mover,
The Prime Mover, is the explanation why man, in a deterministic universe, is a wild card and why, amongst life that is mindless and amoral, man
is mind-imbued and moral.
Right, like those who are utterly opposed to buying and selling bazookas can't frame their own convictions using precisely the same argument. God or No God.
What then? Flip the coin?
Instead, I suggest to those on both ends of the political spectrum that the spectrum itself is comprised of individuals out in particular worlds understood in particular ways who come to embrace their own value judgments as the subjective/intersubjective embodiment of dasein. As political prejudices derived existentially from the life that they lived.
A life such that, had any number of experiences been different, they might well be in here arguing exactly the opposite of what they believe now.
henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:26 pmAnd this whole "follow the dictates of Reason and Nature" schtick: I never said any of that. Other deists may adhere to that, but me, I say: God created Reality; for reasons He hasn't revealed to me, He built Reality so that free wills, each with a natural claim to himself, would exist as wildcards in a deterministic world. Where He is: I cannot say (though, to be honest, I'm not disappointed He's apparently gone...last thing I need or want is a deity pokin' His nose into my business).
Again, leaving aside the fact that, to the best of my knowledge, you believe all of these things about a God, the God, your God as but one more "existential leap of faith" to this particular God and not to the many, many, many, many others that are said to exist, how do you reconcile your God's Reality, with the reality that you as a mere mortal among billions of others have come to accept? How is that
not a manifestation of dasein? And what on earth does your God's Reality have to do with your own personal assessment of bazookas? Especially if others believe in the same Deist God but believe the opposite of what you do about bazookas.
What of this God's Reality then? It's got to be a lower-case deist and a capital letter Reality for a Reason.
henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:26 pmHey, if you can have your own version of
dasein I can have my own version of deism.
Fair enough. On the other hand, given my own understanding of dasein, you came to embrace your own understanding of the lower-case deism given the assumptions I make regarding the acquisition of value judgments
as the embodiment of dasein. We're definitely stuck here.
Either he figures his God would nod in approval at the objectivist dogmas he champions here or he figures that his God might instead nod in approval at those who champion strict gun control laws as a Reasonable and Natural behavior?
henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:26 pmFrankly, I don't give a rat's dirty rear end what He has to say about it. I'm enormously grateful He made me, but He made me a free will who belongs to himself, not a robot. I see no evidence of commandments beyond natural rights which I codify as a man's life is his, his life, liberty, and property are his.
So, apparently you "just know" this about your God and His Reality. You have absolutely no way in which to actually demonstrate that this is the case, but, then, neither do any of the other Deists/deists out there. There's just what
existentially you have come to believe "in your head" is true about "natural rights".
The bottom line being that what you do believe is true "in your head" allows you to anchor your Self in The Right Thing To Do and it is this psychological defense mechanism that sustains your own comfort and consolation. And, with any luck, all the way to the grave. And who really knows what your God's Reality is then?
I think I get it.
henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:26 pmWhere our agendas -- His and mine -- align: great. Where our agendas differ: well, if He has a problem with it, I'm sure He knows where to find me.
The implication being that perhaps He is like all the other Gods. Like IC's Christian God. If your agendas are not in sync...Judgment Day? But that is just one more thing you have absolutely no understanding of at all about this "private and personal" deist god of yours. You figured out what was Natural because you figured out how to "own" yourself and
that allows you to feel content. End of story. Just like all the others here and elsewhere who figured out it was their own God and their own ideology and their own philosophy and their authoritarian dogmas that give them access to good over evil.
Okay, how is your take in sync or not in sync with this...
'Deism is not "conservative" nor "liberal". Deism and Deists follow the dictates of Reason and Nature. Regarding controversial issues such as abortion, gun control, etc., Deists are free to make up their own minds based on their own God-given reason. There are Deists who are on both sides of these issues. The only way to resolve these issues is to have a free exchange of ideas with open minds from people on both sides of the issues.'
henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:26 pmNot only deists, but everyone is free to make up his mind based on reason, emotion or a coin flip. And I'm all for free exchange and debate. But, as I say I, like everyone else, have a right to my life, liberty, and property. I don't violate others and I won't be violated.
And this is what you construe to be an adequate reaction to the points I raise above. You have your own understanding of God, of reason, of natural behavior. And the points I raise regarding dasein are simply not applicable to you. And though other deists/Deists, and other religious denominations, and countless other secular narratives with countless other political agendas can use the same reasoning that you do to arrive at their own profoundly conflicting conclusions...you "just know" that your conclusions reflect the One True Path to bazookas.
henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:26 pmMy bazooka (if I actually had one), for example: I transacted fairly for it. It's my property. I understand other folks are squeamish about such things. I respect their view and their choice to do without firearms. I certainly won't demand they arm themselves, nor will I parade mine in front of them. But, as I say, if I've done them no harm with my bazooka, or shotgun, or weighted tire knocker, or utility knife, then they got no say in my ownin' any of 'em. I also understand that some folks think they
do have a say which is why I wouldn't talk about my bazooka and don't talk about my shotgun outside of this place. Hell, most of my family doesn't know I'm armed.
And that works fine until, in any particular community, others don't share your thinking about buying and selling bazookas because any number of new contexts can arise such that if bazookas were widely owned [and used] the consequences could be...devastating? So, some [deists or not] organize politically to make the buying and the selling of bazookas [or tanks or grenades or military armaments] illegal.
The real world in other words. Not merely discussing and debating it here.
henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:26 pmAnd abortion: yeah, I think most abortions are unjust killings of human beings. I've said so many times. What I haven't done is suggest a solution.
And, again, what you think here is not at all related to the arguments I propose regarding the acquisition of value judgments as the embodiment of dasein...your own conclusions really do reflect what is "naturally" rational. You can't make the arguments the other side raise go away but when your own private and personal deist God created Reality, that somehow included you "owning" yourself and arriving at the One True Path in regard to abortion too.
As you say...
henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed May 04, 2022 1:50 amThe absent lace climbed up my butt on this very subject many, many moons ago. Like you, she thought becuz I opposed violations of life, liberty, and property, that I was out & about everyday crusadin'. I don't. I, very quietly, live my life exactly as I want to and I leave others to do the same.
So, yeah, I think abortion is killing a person, and I think most abortions are flat out murder, but I have no time, no resources, and, most importantly, no
inclination to police the world, and not you or anyone else here can point to any post of mine that sez otherwise.
It ever and always stops at "what you think" here and now. How you came to think as you did and not another way given the life that you lived is truly irrelevant. You're not out to give a sermon on abortion but if in your community it becomes a capital crime and a woman you love has one...do you turn her in? Is she a premeditated murderer? If arrested, convicted and found guilty...send her to death row?
It's not merely abortion discussed and debated here, it's abortion if, here in America, the conservative moral objectivists seize control of Congress and the White House and make every abortion illegal.
Abortion and your deist God's Reality, along with your own authoritarian dogma...then.
There is a God, the God, your God. You have faith in His existence. Faith unless of course you can actually demonstrate it is not a leap of faith at all...that in fact He does exist.
henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:26 pmYes, I believe in God. I believe, as I say...
henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Apr 10, 2022 3:49 am
Man is the proof. In a determined universe, he's the wildcard. As a free will, he starts, ends, and bends causal chains. He is a point of creative power. He does what no other matter, or life, can: he self-directs, self-relies, and is self-responsible. He reasons, chooses, and considers consequence. There's nuthin' about a blind, deterministic interplay of forces that could have brought him into existence.
This actually
is what you believe constitutes proof that of all the many, many, many Gods there are for mere mortals to choose from, your own private and personal deist God really is The One!!!
You simply assert all of this as true about him...
But, no, not quite...
henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:26 pm...but I understand that's a proof that works for
me and mebbe not for other folks. And that's okay cuz I'm not in the conversion business. As I say: I have no paster or church to support and no edict to preach the good news to follow.
Again, though, out in the real world, in actual flesh and blood human communities, laws will be passed and enforced regarding bazookas and abortions such that, while you might prefer to keep it all confined to "discussing and debating" it here, and in not persuading and "converting" others to think like you do, you'll have no choice but to join in or risk seeing what you believe shunted aside and the other side prevailing. Bazookas are outlawed, abortion on demand is the community standard.
Then the part that most interests me...
But what if there are other Deists among us who "own" themselves and insist that owning bazookas and tanks is an irrational and unnatural behavior. And that having an abortion is a rational and natural behavior.
henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:26 pmI'm sure there are. I think they're wrong and with good reason, but their lives and the contents of their heads are theirs. Until one of them decides to infringe on my life, liberty, and property I'm not too concerned with what they think (though zi will debate 'em if given the chance).
Okay...
As I see it, you are basically suggesting here that, in any given community, they are right from their side, you are right from your side. That you have your Reasons, they have theirs. That
this is all a manifestation of God's Reality. So it comes down to who can acquire the actual political power to enact the laws that either permit the buying and selling of bazookas or laws that prohibit it. Laws that permit abortions or laws that prohibit them.
And, if so, how is "moderation, negotiation and compromise" not a legitimate approach to it? Unless of course you are convinced that your side does have the power to embrace your own authoritarian, objectivist dogmas. Such as here in America, the pro fetal life folks might acquire in a couple of years.
But what if the other side prevails instead? Fuck all those dead fetuses...that's got nothing to do with me?
henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:26 pm An aside: I've never met or had any communications with another deist. Nor have I met or had any communications with any other libertarian (of any strain). The literature of either I find boring, so I'm not caught up with whatever the current thinkin' is in either area.
Hmm...
You believe in the existence of the Deist God. But to you this revolves solely around your own private and personal deist God. But the "private and personal" part has nothing to do with how I construe the meaning of dasein on these threads:
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=176529
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=194382
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5&t=185296
Though, as I see it, you won't go into any great detail as to why my arguments are
not applicable to you.
Or does every single Deist on Earth in worshipping and adoring their God as the followers of Ayn Rand worshipped and adored her, share the only Rational and Natural frame of mind there can be here?
henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:26 pm Well, I don't worship or bend a knee to anyone, even if He is God. And even though I have no experience with other deists, I find it hard to imagine a believer in an impersonal, absent God would worship Him, but it's possible (more power to 'em, I say). And, no, I don't imagine there's any kind of monolithic perspective born of a
Rational and Natural frame of mind which, of course, means some of us deists (like
me, mebbe) are wrong about some things. It is what it is.
But you don't really know what it is. There is only what up until now you have thought yourself into believing that there is. Just like all those who have thought themselves into believing in very different things. You've all led different lives out in different worlds understood in different ways. But you are all convinced that how you do understand things "here and now" is the One True Path.
And it just doesn't occur to you that what you all have in common is the psychological need to believe that what you believe is the One True Path because being on it is what provides you with the comfort and the consolation of being able to believe that you
are on the One True Path. That may be applicable to those who don't think like you do but not to you.
Something like that?
But you do seem to admit that you may well be wrong "here and now" about buying and selling bazookas and about having an abortion.
Right?
In other words, you might have new experiences, new relationships, access to new information and knowledge [in a world bursting with contingency, chance and change] that changes your mind about bazookas and abortions.
Right?