God and belief in the Supernatural - affect on ethics

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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attofishpi
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Re: God and belief in the Supernatural - affect on ethics

Post by attofishpi »

popeye1945 wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:39 am
attofishpi wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:30 pm I haven't delved into this much if at all and have glanced at some threads on the topic of whether belief in God influenced our ethics and morality.
I'd like to take that further, since there are cultures of peoples around the globe where they don't believe in God(s) per se but have beliefs in the supernatural, such as the spirits of their ancestors watching over them etc.. So.Did the established religions pertaining to God(s) influence our sense of morality over time, and also that of other non God fearing cultures' morality where a sense of the supernatural, cause an effect ultimately on the actions of these people? I think it must have. This per my above statement can work both ways where God(s) or spirits may be indoctrinated within a culture that has evil traits, thus leading to the people of that culture to act in a way that we would deem unethical, immoral.
atto,

There is no doubt that Christianity played a role in the development of the concept of humanity but I believe it has served its purpose and now plays a quite negative role in human development. The thing that puzzles many many people is the fact that people they know to be intelligent are at the same time religious, it doesn't jive somehow. Well, intelligence is very important while not itself infallible and it does not in itself indicate wisdom one comes closer to that ideal when you have a mixture of intelligence and critical thinking. This mixture however would spell extinction to religion. Just try and imagining practicing critical thinking in any of the desert religions that permeate the western world. To my way of thinking one leaves both ones intelligence and critical thinking outside the entrance of any church, mosque or temple. Religion is for those without this fortunate mixture.
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popeye1945
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Re: God and belief in the Supernatural - affect on ethics

Post by popeye1945 »

The lack of critical thinking is responsible for the existence of god and the supernatural.
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Re: God and belief in the Supernatural - affect on ethics

Post by RCSaunders »

popeye1945 wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:37 pm The lack of critical thinking is responsible for the existence of god and the supernatural.
Really!?

Well, if that's what made them exist, I guess it's too late to get rid of them now.
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Re: God and belief in the Supernatural - affect on ethics

Post by attofishpi »

popeye1945 wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:37 pm The lack of critical thinking is responsible for the existence of god and the supernatural.
It is really really really weird and also annoying actually knowing (not believing) all atheists are wrong. My knowledge of the existence of God does not render IT 'supernatural', there must be a natural reason for its existence.
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Re: God and belief in the Supernatural - affect on ethics

Post by popeye1945 »

attofishpi wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:32 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:37 pm The lack of critical thinking is responsible for the existence of god and the supernatural.
It is really really really weird and also annoying actually knowing (not believing) all atheists are wrong. My knowledge of the existence of God does not render IT 'supernatural', there must be a natural reason for its existence.
Att,

Must be, maybe, could be, might be a possibility, I feel a presence. Reality is perhaps not as pleasant but if you have any intellectual integrity at all the answer must be no, there are no gods.
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Re: God and belief in the Supernatural - affect on ethics

Post by attofishpi »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 12:44 am
attofishpi wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:32 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:37 pm The lack of critical thinking is responsible for the existence of god and the supernatural.
It is really really really weird and also annoying actually knowing (not believing) all atheists are wrong. My knowledge of the existence of God does not render IT 'supernatural', there must be a natural reason for its existence.
Att,

Must be, maybe, could be, might be a possibility, I feel a presence. Reality is perhaps not as pleasant but if you have any intellectual integrity at all the answer must be no, there are no gods.
Poppy,

Your statement there is borderline a contradiction of terms. On the one hand you are basically stating God is plausible, and on the other stating to believe in the existence of it, one must demote ones intellect.
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Re: God and belief in the Supernatural - affect on ethics

Post by popeye1945 »

Poppy,

Your statement there is borderline a contradiction of terms. On the one hand you are basically stating God is plausible, and on the other stating to believe in the existence of it, one must demote ones intellect.
[/quote]

Att,

No contradiction, it was satire. Things of the imagination such as gods, demons, warlocks and the such really don't deserve serious consideration. When and if someone ever comes up with something that could be considered the slightest of evidence in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary I'll do a rethink.
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Re: God and belief in the Supernatural - affect on ethics

Post by attofishpi »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 1:08 am
atto wrote: Poppy,

Your statement there is borderline a contradiction of terms. On the one hand you are basically stating God is plausible, and on the other stating to believe in the existence of it, one must demote ones intellect.
Att,

No contradiction, it was satire. Things of the imagination such as gods, demons, warlocks and the such really don't deserve serious consideration. When and if someone ever comes up with something that could be considered the slightest of evidence in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary I'll do a rethink.
Poppy,

Satire!!? lol OK.

I'll be the first to state that believing in things such as demons, devils, warlocks etc is folly...sure, show me one. Such things are VERY different from considering what makes up the nature of reality, God - such as pantheism and panentheism.

Evidence you ask for, then do check the OP of the following thread:-

Simulation or Divine Reality? Evidence of God\'God'
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=33214
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Re: God and belief in the Supernatural - affect on ethics

Post by popeye1945 »

Spinoza's god is a more tangible example of reason, hardly to be compared to the traditional desert religions. Are you happy with a definition of god as being the totality, god as substance? This is what got Spinoza excommunicated from Judaism. My point of reference is the classical idea of god in the west, mainly the desert religions.
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Re: God and belief in the Supernatural - affect on ethics

Post by Belinda »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:08 am Spinoza's god is a more tangible example of reason, hardly to be compared to the traditional desert religions. Are you happy with a definition of god as being the totality, god as substance? This is what got Spinoza excommunicated from Judaism. My point of reference is the classical idea of god in the west, mainly the desert religions.
I agree , Popeye. However it's necessary to say what the difference is between "god as totality, god as substance" on one hand, and "god in the west, mainly the desert religions" on the other.
The "desert religions" own God as totality. However they also own God as a separate substance from the other two substances of finite and mortal minds and that of extension in space and time.

There is a problem about teaching metaphysical ideas like these as most people are not open to metaphysics. Jesus explained the moral code but not substance ontology. So wise priests preach Jesus his life and works but not substance ontology. The problem is not with the moral code of Jesus but with the politics of priests.
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Re: God and belief in the Supernatural - affect on ethics

Post by popeye1945 »

["I agree , Popeye. However it's necessary to say what the difference is between "god as totality, god as substance" on one hand, and "god in the west, mainly the desert religions" on the other.
The "desert religions" own God as totality. However they also own God as a separate substance from the other two substances of finite and mortal minds and that of extension in space and time. There is a problem about teaching metaphysical ideas like these as most people are not open to metaphysics. Jesus explained the moral code but not substance ontology. So wise priests preach Jesus his life and works but not substance ontology. The problem is not with the moral code of Jesus but with the politics of priests.
[/quote]

Belinda,
The desert religions do not own god as a totality, if the did they would see god in his creations and the individual could say, I am god without being accused of blasphemy. Politics and religon I guess have always been in bed together, a frightening combination. There is nothing wrong with Jesus's moral code as long as one cherry picks and leaves out the more brutish aspects of a harshing time. It puzzles me why so many people believe that a less civilized people could better instruct the modern world as to its moral character. As some born agains once informed me, its time tested, to them the older it is the more credibility it has, so, I asked them why are you not Jews.
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Re: God and belief in the Supernatural - affect on ethics

Post by Belinda »

popeye1945 wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 9:24 am ["I agree , Popeye. However it's necessary to say what the difference is between "god as totality, god as substance" on one hand, and "god in the west, mainly the desert religions" on the other.
The "desert religions" own God as totality. However they also own God as a separate substance from the other two substances of finite and mortal minds and that of extension in space and time. There is a problem about teaching metaphysical ideas like these as most people are not open to metaphysics. Jesus explained the moral code but not substance ontology. So wise priests preach Jesus his life and works but not substance ontology. The problem is not with the moral code of Jesus but with the politics of priests.
Belinda,
The desert religions do not own god as a totality, if the did they would see god in his creations and the individual could say, I am god without being accused of blasphemy. Politics and religon I guess have always been in bed together, a frightening combination. There is nothing wrong with Jesus's moral code as long as one cherry picks and leaves out the more brutish aspects of a harshing time. It puzzles me why so many people believe that a less civilized people could better instruct the modern world as to its moral character. As some born agains once informed me, its time tested, to them the older it is the more credibility it has, so, I asked them why are you not Jews.
[/quote]

You misunderstood what I wrote.
The "desert religions" own God as totality, however they also own God as a separate substance from the other two substances of finite and mortal minds and that of extension in space and time.

Above, I have edited what I wrote inserting a comma instead of a full stop and I hope that makes my intention clearer.

I agree that details of the Crucifixion are hard to read about. Nevertheless there is comparable brutality , comparable social wrongs, and comparable diseases and crippling disabilities going on in this present day and age.

The Bible is a moral authority for many people , however it contains much of value for unbelievers . It's seldom sufficiently taught in schools as historical/anthropological source , poetry, or myth, however there are popular books that explain The Bible other than as the words and commands of an anthropomorphic Deity Who intervenes in history.
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Re: God and belief in the Supernatural - affect on ethics

Post by popeye1945 »

You misunderstood what I wrote.
The "desert religions" own God as totality, however they also own God as a separate substance from the other two substances of finite and mortal minds and that of extension in space and time.
Above, I have edited what I wrote inserting a comma instead of a full stop and I hope that makes my intention clearer.
I agree that details of the Crucifixion are hard to read about. Nevertheless there is comparable brutality , comparable social wrongs, and comparable diseases and crippling disabilities going on in this present day and age.

The Bible is a moral authority for many people , however it contains much of value for unbelievers . It's seldom sufficiently taught in schools as historical/anthropological source , poetry, or myth, however there are popular books that explain The Bible other than as the words and commands of an anthropomorphic Deity Who intervenes in history.
[/quote

Ok, Belinda.

Sorry if I have misunderstood your intenton. On the question of extension in time and space however, it is my understanding that Christians do not believe their God dwells in time and space. Didn't Spinoza, believe that substance/god has extension into space and time and that matter/substance is infinite? Could the phrase biological extension have the same meaning as the mind's extension in space and time and as the human mind as a creator? From my limited understanding of the subject, I believe Spinoza did believe there to be but one substance. Could you recommend a book that deals with the poetry and myths of the bible? I have touched on the subject of Spinoza after you recommended him --fascinating stuff!
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Re: God and belief in the Supernatural - affect on ethics

Post by Belinda »

popeye1945 wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 1:29 pm You misunderstood what I wrote.
The "desert religions" own God as totality, however they also own God as a separate substance from the other two substances of finite and mortal minds and that of extension in space and time.
Above, I have edited what I wrote inserting a comma instead of a full stop and I hope that makes my intention clearer.
I agree that details of the Crucifixion are hard to read about. Nevertheless there is comparable brutality , comparable social wrongs, and comparable diseases and crippling disabilities going on in this present day and age.

The Bible is a moral authority for many people , however it contains much of value for unbelievers . It's seldom sufficiently taught in schools as historical/anthropological source , poetry, or myth, however there are popular books that explain The Bible other than as the words and commands of an anthropomorphic Deity Who intervenes in history.
[/quote

Ok, Belinda.

Sorry if I have misunderstood your intenton. On the question of extension in time and space however, it is my understanding that Christians do not believe their God dwells in time and space. Didn't Spinoza, believe that substance/god has extension into space and time and that matter/substance is infinite? Could the phrase biological extension have the same meaning as the mind's extension in space and time and as the human mind as a creator? From my limited understanding of the subject, I believe Spinoza did believe there to be but one substance. Could you recommend a book that deals with the poetry and myths of the bible? I have touched on the subject of Spinoza after you recommended him --fascinating stuff!
Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy wrote:
What does it mean to say that God is substance and that everything else is “in” God? Is Spinoza saying that rocks, tables, chairs, birds, mountains, rivers and human beings are all properties of God, and hence can be predicated of God (just as one would say that the table “is red”)? It seems very odd to think that objects and individuals—what we ordinarily think of as independent “things”—are, in fact, merely properties of a thing, items that inhere in something else. Spinoza was sensitive to the strangeness of this kind of talk, not to mention the philosophical problems to which it gives rise. When a person feels pain, does it follow that the pain is ultimately just a property of God, and thus that God feels pain? All of this has given rise to a great deal of scholarly debate as to what Spinoza means by saying all things being modes of or “in” God. They may also explain why, as of Proposition Sixteen, there is a subtle but important shift in Spinoza’s language. God is now described not so much as the underlying substance of all things, but as the universal, immanent and sustaining cause of all that exists: “From the necessity of the divine nature there must follow infinitely many things in infinitely many modes, (i.e., everything that can fall under an infinite intellect)”.
The "universal, immanent and sustaining cause of all that exists" is, if you imagine set theory circles, the circle that holds the universal set. Many people say Spinoza was not a pantheist but a panentheist.

Joseph Campbell's "The Power of Myth" . I have not read it but it gets good reviews and Joseph Campbell is an authority on myths.

I should say I take a sociological view when I discuss the topic of 'Religion'. Sociologically, religions usually include myths, moral codes/taboos, and rituals such as church attendance, or kneeling to pray, or observing Xmas.
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Re: God and belief in the Supernatural - affect on ethics

Post by popeye1945 »

Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy wrote:
What does it mean to say that God is substance and that everything else is “in” God? Is Spinoza saying that rocks, tables, chairs, birds, mountains, rivers and human beings are all properties of God, and hence can be predicated of God (just as one would say that the table “is red”)? It seems very odd to think that objects and individuals—what we ordinarily think of as independent “things”—are, in fact, merely properties of a thing, items that inhere in something else. Spinoza was sensitive to the strangeness of this kind of talk, not to mention the philosophical problems to which it gives rise. When a person feels pain, does it follow that the pain is ultimately just a property of God, and thus that God feels pain? All of this has given rise to a great deal of scholarly debate as to what Spinoza means by saying all things being modes of or “in” God. They may also explain why, as of Proposition Sixteen, there is a subtle but important shift in Spinoza’s language. God is now described not so much as the underlying substance of all things, but as the universal, immanent and sustaining cause of all that exists: “From the necessity of the divine nature there must follow infinitely many things in infinitely many modes, (i.e., everything that can fall under an infinite intellect)”.
[" The "universal, immanent and sustaining cause of all that exists" is, if you imagine set theory circles, the circle that holds the universal set. Many people say Spinoza was not a pantheist but a panentheist.
Joseph Campbell's "The Power of Myth" . I have not read it but it gets good reviews and Joseph Campbell is an authority on myths.
I should say I take a sociological view when I discuss the topic of 'Religion'. Sociologically, religions usually include myths, moral codes/taboos, and rituals such as church attendance, or kneeling to pray, or observing Xmas.
[/quote]

Belinda,
I think what is going on here is a desire for an anthropomorphic God, we can't settle for anything less. Whatever is the ultimate source is a mystery and a mystery it remains. Totality though, is a term one can wrap one's mind around even when that totality is beyond actual knowing. At present I believe Spinoza was a pantheist. Regarding Joseph Campbell, I quote, "Mythology is the other man's religion", so mythology when believed is religion. Actually, I do not believe reality is a thing, it is a condition and there are conditions within reality and it is the human condition that experiences things, but they only exist to the life condition. I feel some support for this in that modern physics tells us that ultimate reality is a place of no things. The things we do experience is the relation of one condition to another condition, things are effect/experience.
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